New Acer Helios 18 i9-14900hx constant throttle @ 94-100c

[shruggygoat]

Hello,

A while back Unclewebb helped me an old i7 from 2012 and I hope I could ask for some further help with a new laptop (I finally replaced that old 2012 HP!)

I have a new (1+ week) Predator Helios 18 with an i9-14900hz and a 4080.

It's constantly thermal throttling and games stutter. I understand from the Acer forums this processor is designed to run hot but the stuttering is terrible.

HWmonitor package shows 94-100C. Throttlestop show PROCHOT @92-94c for the CPU. GPU is ok around 72C.

BIOS has everything locked and a lot of the options in TS are locked.

I'm using a cooling pad which doesn't seem to help much either.

Any ideas on how to cool this beast down?

Here's a PROCHOT 100C

Here's the Intel XTU screen - just missed it showing 100C

The XTU shows the thermal throttling at 82% time active
Current EDP time active 30%

In one of the Acer power modes the Turbo Boost Power Max is 140W, another 95W as shown.

 

[unclewebb]

Why would you keep a laptop that has so many throttling problems? The cooling system is either poorly installed or more likely, poorly designed.

You can use ThrottleStop to slow the 14900HX down to a fraction of its rated speed. It seems kind of silly to pay top dollar for a high end laptop with a 14900HX and a 4080 and then not be able to fully use this hardware due to poor cooling.

With the FIVR voltage adjustments locked out by the BIOS, there is little you can do to cool your laptop down without killing performance. Having the turbo power limits set to 95W and 157W does not make sense if the cooling system has not been engineered to dissipate that kind of heat.

The only solution is to return it for a full refund.

 

[ir_cow]

I personally do not think it's really possible to cool all that hardware in a laptop form factor.

 

[VortexSupernova]

Hello,

A while back Unclewebb helped me an old i7 from 2012 and I hope I could ask for some further help with a new laptop (I finally replaced that old 2012 HP!)

I have a new (1+ week) Predator Helios 18 with an i9-14900hz and a 4080.

It's constantly thermal throttling and games stutter. I understand from the Acer forums this processor is designed to run hot but the stuttering is terrible.

HWmonitor package shows 94-100C. Throttlestop show PROCHOT @92-94c for the CPU. GPU is ok around 72C.

BIOS has everything locked and a lot of the options in TS are locked.

I'm using a cooling pad which doesn't seem to help much either.

Any ideas on how to cool this beast down?



View attachment 349091
View attachment 349092
View attachment 349093

Here's a PROCHOT 100C
View attachment 349094

Here's the Intel XTU screen - just missed it showing 100C
View attachment 349097


The XTU shows the thermal throttling at 82% time active
Current EDP time active 30%

In one of the Acer power modes the Turbo Boost Power Max is 140W, another 95W as shown.

There is only one way you can cool this. Buy yourself some Conductonaut Extreme and k5 pro/u6 upsiren pro (for the VRMs and VRAM).
Acer does terrible liquid metal applications. By using Conductonaut Extreme yourself, you'll automatically be doing a much better job.
Basically, thermal paste is easy to apply, you slather it on and slap the heatsink back on, so generally you can't cry too much about how technicians do it. However, liquid metal requires actual attention to detail because it has to be spread fully across the CPU and GPU dies. If you can do that, boom, you'll be able to dissipate 160w+. I've already done it on my i9-11900H, you can definitely do it on your laptop. How do I know this? Well, your laptop has liquid metal pre-installed but to a horrible degree, so it's not like your heatsink ISN'T nickel plated (i.e. it won't degrade from the liquid metal).

 

[Calenhad]

Hello,

A while back Unclewebb helped me an old i7 from 2012 and I hope I could ask for some further help with a new laptop (I finally replaced that old 2012 HP!)

I have a new (1+ week) Predator Helios 18 with an i9-14900hz and a 4080.

It's constantly thermal throttling and games stutter. I understand from the Acer forums this processor is designed to run hot but the stuttering is terrible.

HWmonitor package shows 94-100C. Throttlestop show PROCHOT @92-94c for the CPU. GPU is ok around 72C.

BIOS has everything locked and a lot of the options in TS are locked.

I'm using a cooling pad which doesn't seem to help much either.

Any ideas on how to cool this beast down?

Return the laptop. Don't let the manufacturer off the hook for selling a poorly designed product. And definitely don't start doing what the above poster says. This is a brand new product. If it does not work out of the box, put it back in the box and return it. After all, if it throttle that bad you can buy a cheaper product and get the same performance as long as that throttle less.

 

[Assimilator]

It never ceases to amaze me how many stupid people think that cramming an Intel CPU into a laptop is somehow going to work out fine.

 

[shruggygoat]

Well, had an interesting turn of events.

I was off on my memory of my purchase date. It's out of the return window so that's not an option.

Also, I ended up doing a Windows factory reset and got some interesting results.

The constant throttling was gone and the fans barely sped up in a few of the games I play. Temps were down to the 70-80s as well.

The default PL1 when I loaded XTU was 35W and PL2 was 157W. Is XTU setting values on load without making any changes myself? Is the Acer Scenario supposed to change the PLs? If I open the Acer Sense or change the scenario to anything, after I fully close / reopen /refresh XTU it sets the PL1 to 145W and the PL2 to 140W. I don't think the PL1 should be 145W. Any ideas on why this is happening?

Is there a read-only way to view the PLs so XTU or Acer Sense isn't adjusting them so I can see what they are on a fresh boot or after I load the Acer Sense to see if that's what causing the issues?

I ran Cinebench 2024 (have never messed with this before) in 'Turbo mode' and got:
GPU score of 16905
Multi core - 1614
Single core - 123

Apparently these are good numbers.

Is there any other logging I can do to verify / help anyone curious here out?

 

[unclewebb]

Is there a read-only way to view the PLs so XTU or Acer Sense isn't adjusting them so I can see what they are on a fresh boot

If you delete the ThrottleStop.INI configuration file, when you run ThrottleStop, the Turbo Power Limits section of the TPL window will show what the power limits are presently set to. When no INI file is found, ThrottleStop will read this information from the CPU. This info is updated every second so if you start XTU or Predator Sense, it should immediately show if the power limits have changed. Leave Disable Controls checked in ThrottleStop so ThrottleStop does not interfere with the power limits.

You can also use HWiNFO but HWiNFO does not update the power limits data in real time like ThrottleStop does.
It is inconvenient to have to constantly restart HWiNFO to get it to update.

The default PL1 when I loaded XTU was 35W

35W is not much power for a 14900HX. It will run cool and quiet when limited to 35W but performance will stink. The first screenshot you posted shows this. PL1 power limit throttling at only 35W. Sad times for the mighty 14900HX.

Is there any other logging I can do to verify

Check the Log File box on the main screen of ThrottleStop. When finished testing, exit ThrottleStop so it can finalize the log file. This file will be in the ThrottleStop / Logs folder with today's date in its name. Attach a log file if you want me to have a look at it. This log file will show power consumption, CPU temperature and any reasons for throttling.

 

[shruggygoat]

Ok,

Interesting.

So PredatorSense is changing the values according to TS.

MSR the same in any mode
MSR 140/157

Quiet:
MIMO 55/157

Balanced:
MIMO 85/157

Performance:
MIMO 95/157

Turbo 140/157

Notice PROCHOT 92 on Balanced and 100 on Performance.

Balanced:

 

[unclewebb]

So PredatorSense is changing the values according to TS.

That makes sense.

The MMIO power limits are considered to be the dynamic power limits that manufacturer's software can choose to change at any time. Nice to see ThrottleStop confirming this info as well as the PROCHOT throttling temperature being adjusted by PredatorSense. That seems to work OK.

The ThrottleStop Lock PROCHOT Offset feature in the Options window is always available if you feel the need to prevent the PROCHOT temperature from ever changing.

 

[shruggygoat]

Ok very strange and some more findings.

It seems the fan tuning for Balanced/Turbo Mode is not aggressive enough. I have a game in the foreground and the monitoring on another screen the highest temperatures were reached in Balanced and Performance mode hitting 95-99C. The lowest temperatures were found in Quiet mode, then Turbo (assuming this is like the wide gamut of power, quiet is just so low it doens't heat, and Turbo has the fans spinning at max).

Also, apparently the MIMO values in Predator Sense are dynamic depending on current load. If the game is active, Turbo is now showing a limit of 80 PL1. But if I deactivate the game, then change the mode, Turbo PL1 goes back to 140. The game is using at most 70W and an average of 55.

I will do some logging this evening.

-- new post 5/31

This laptop from Puget systems with the same i9-14900hx has completely different profile PL limits.

I'm guessing Acer didn't spend a lot of time testing various modes for better cooling tuning? I might try these settings, since even in the Quiet mode I'm getting full FPS in the 2 games I play most of the time.

Didn't get to logs yet - hopefully today.

Puget Systems Laptop vs Desktop Performance Comparison for Content Creation

With the launch of the new Puget Systems 17" laptop, there are a lot of performance questions we want to address. Today, we will be examining the performance of this new mobile workstation compared to a more traditional desktop.

www.pugetsystems.com

Power Profile (Wall)	Performance	Entertainment	Quiet	Power Saving
CPU PL1 / PL2 (W)	125 / 165	55 / 135	25 / 30	15 / 15

 

[PHVM_BR]

Ok very strange and some more findings.

It seems the fan tuning for Balanced/Turbo Mode is not aggressive enough. I have a game in the foreground and the monitoring on another screen the highest temperatures were reached in Balanced and Performance mode hitting 95-99C. The lowest temperatures were found in Quiet mode, then Turbo (assuming this is like the wide gamut of power, quiet is just so low it doens't heat, and Turbo has the fans spinning at max).

Also, apparently the MIMO values in Predator Sense are dynamic depending on current load. If the game is active, Turbo is now showing a limit of 80 PL1. But if I deactivate the game, then change the mode, Turbo PL1 goes back to 140. The game is using at most 70W and an average of 55.

I will do some logging this evening.

-- new post 5/31

This laptop from Puget systems with the same i9-14900hx has completely different profile PL limits.

I'm guessing Acer didn't spend a lot of time testing various modes for better cooling tuning? I might try these settings, since even in the Quiet mode I'm getting full FPS in the 2 games I play most of the time.

Didn't get to logs yet - hopefully today.

Puget Systems Laptop vs Desktop Performance Comparison for Content Creation

With the launch of the new Puget Systems 17" laptop, there are a lot of performance questions we want to address. Today, we will be examining the performance of this new mobile workstation compared to a more traditional desktop.

www.pugetsystems.com

Power Profile (Wall)	Performance	Entertainment	Quiet	Power Saving
CPU PL1 / PL2 (W)	125 / 165	55 / 135	25 / 30	15 / 15

During games, the power limit decreasing is completely normal as there will be intensive use of the GPU simultaneously and the system will have to cool the CPU and GPU at the same time.

In any laptop the CPU power consumption limit will always be higher when there is load only on the CPU.

 

[VortexSupernova]

Return the laptop. Don't let the manufacturer off the hook for selling a poorly designed product. And definitely don't start doing what the above poster says. This is a brand new product. If it does not work out of the box, put it back in the box and return it. After all, if it throttle that bad you can buy a cheaper product and get the same performance as long as that throttle less.

Ah yes just ignore someone letting you know exactly what works? Great logic right there

 

[P4-630]

Ah yes just ignore someone letting you know exactly what works? Great logic right there

Note, you didn't read all I see, that post you were quoting was before OP mentioned:

Also, I ended up doing a Windows factory reset and got some interesting results.

The constant throttling was gone and the fans barely sped up in a few of the games I play. Temps were down to the 70-80s as well.

 

[shruggygoat]

OK @unclewebb

I did the logging finally -

TY for everyone engaged in this thread BTW -

Did each Acer Predator Sense mode (Quiet, Balanced, Performance, and Turbo) and performed Cinebench 2024 Multi and Single core tests for each mode. I also included a log of 5 minutes of a game (Wow Classic) on all settings maxed on "Balanced". I tried to do the tests back to back after one finished but I think there might be a few minutes gap between some where I stepped away.

Side note - I think after I did a Windows reset, what happened was all of the XTU/TS settings I fiddled with were gone (?) and I probably saw the same results. Not sure if it made a difference in temps at this point.

Also for extraneous detail - these logs were done with the laptop on a passive stand.

 

[shruggygoat]

Just thought I'd bump this since it's been a few days since I got the logs.

If they are insufficient I can do some more or if there's just nothing I can do besides lower PROCHOT or TPLs then I guess that's the end of my quest and I hope the laptop lasts LOL.

TY

 

[unclewebb]

I am not sure what else I can say. Your laptop has poor cooling and the FIVR voltages are locked out so there is not much you can do about the situation. The CPU is overheating during your game test when the CPU load is only 10%. The extra heat generated by the Nvidia GPU when it is active is more heat than your computer can manage. Hard to recommend the Acer Helios 18 with a 14900HX. Lack of adequate cooling reduces performance.

During Cinebench testing when in Turbo mode the CPU runs at about 75% of the speed that a similar Lenovo Legion runs at with the same CPU. The Legion can be undervolted and it has better cooling. In lower power modes the CPU speed drops down to about 60%.

You can play around with different turbo power limits or different power plans to cover up the problem but that does not really solve the problem of inadequate cooling.

 

[A&P211]

The asus g18 can be undervolted, not locked out.

 

[PHVM_BR]

Your laptop is working as it should, with the CPU going up to ~160/170W and sustaining ~135/140W in CPU-only tasks and sustaining (at least trying to sustain) 80 to 90W while the GPU should be consuming 160 to 170W.

Most laptops, even powerful models, cannot sustain 80 or 90W while the GPU consumes 160/170W.

ROG SCAR 18 and Legion Pro 7 keep the CPU at 55 or 65W during games, where the GPU uses all of its power.

Your problem is, in addition to being blocked for undervolt - and this is easy to solve - is that your cooling system cannot handle this power limit on the CPU during games.

You just need to limit the power to 65W, which will result in lower temperatures, more stable gameplay and, I believe, no loss of FPS in most situations.

Play at least in QHD with maximum quality and it will work fine.

 

[shruggygoat]

Thank you everyone. The only hope is that Acer at some point releases a BIOS with the ability to unlock everything, or adjusts fan curves at a minimum. It's too bad they missed the mark with cooling on this system, as the general build quality is great (minus cooling) and the price is good in it's market.

Considering it's still under warranty, I'd hesitant to pop it open and check the LM application to see if it's bad, but someday I will and will take photos and see.

I will use the edit-performance* mode as default for gaming, and set the TPL lower since the fan is tolerable on that RPM and keep prochot at 90.

@PHVM_BR should I set the PL1/PL2 to both 65W? Or something like 55 PL1 / 65 PL2?

 

[PHVM_BR]

Thank you everyone. The only hope is that Acer at some point releases a BIOS with the ability to unlock everything, or adjusts fan curves at a minimum. It's too bad they missed the mark with cooling on this system, as the general build quality is great (minus cooling) and the price is good in it's market.

Considering it's still under warranty, I'd hesitant to pop it open and check the LM application to see if it's bad, but someday I will and will take photos and see.

I will use the turbo mode as default for gaming, and set the TPL lower since the fan is tolerable on that RPM and keep prochot at 90.

@PHVM_BR should I set the PL1/PL2 to both 65W? Or something like 55 PL1 / 65 PL2?

PL1/PL2= 65W or PL1=65W/PL2=75W

If you want to play with limits above that, buy IETS GT600 or LIano V12.

About undervolt unlocking and other adjustments, try UMAF Smokeless.

Acer will never help you with this.

 

[Che0063]

Thank you everyone. The only hope is that Acer at some point releases a BIOS with the ability to unlock everything, or adjusts fan curves at a minimum. It's too bad they missed the mark with cooling on this system, as the general build quality is great (minus cooling) and the price is good in it's market.

Considering it's still under warranty, I'd hesitant to pop it open and check the LM application to see if it's bad, but someday I will and will take photos and see.

I will use the edit-performance* mode as default for gaming, and set the TPL lower since the fan is tolerable on that RPM and keep prochot at 90.

@PHVM_BR should I set the PL1/PL2 to both 65W? Or something like 55 PL1 / 65 PL2?

Acer will NEVER release such a BIOS unfortunately. Nor will they allow you to adjust fan curves. However, you can check whether NotebookFanControl works for manual fan control; however, you will likely need to do some digging around in the Embedded Controller registers to find the correct registers for fan control

I would also exercise extreme caution about using UMAF Smokeless - make sure you take a backup of your BIOS and have a BIOS flasher on hand; there have been reports that simply using/opening UMAF Smokeless is enough to brick devices, even if you never actually changed anything

 

[PHVM_BR]

I would also exercise extreme caution about using UMAF Smokeless - make sure you take a backup of your BIOS and have a BIOS flasher on hand; there have been reports that simply using/opening UMAF Smokeless is enough to brick devices, even if you never actually changed anything

I've used it on a few different machines and that's fine.
If you do anything stupid, just reset the original BIOS and everything goes back to the starting point.

 

[vrdiude]

Hello,

A while back Unclewebb helped me an old i7 from 2012 and I hope I could ask for some further help with a new laptop (I finally replaced that old 2012 HP!)

I have a new (1+ week) Predator Helios 18 with an i9-14900hz and a 4080.

It's constantly thermal throttling and games stutter. I understand from the Acer forums this processor is designed to run hot but the stuttering is terrible.

HWmonitor package shows 94-100C. Throttlestop show PROCHOT @92-94c for the CPU. GPU is ok around 72C.

BIOS has everything locked and a lot of the options in TS are locked.

I'm using a cooling pad which doesn't seem to help much either.

Any ideas on how to cool this beast down?



View attachment 349091
View attachment 349092
View attachment 349093

Here's a PROCHOT 100C
View attachment 349094

Here's the Intel XTU screen - just missed it showing 100C
View attachment 349097


The XTU shows the thermal throttling at 82% time active
Current EDP time active 30%

In one of the Acer power modes the Turbo Boost Power Max is 140W, another 95W as shown.

Hello,

I can give my test results and also ask some questions to the very knowledgeable people here.

I had a Predator 18 - 4090.
The machine was in continuous throttling as reported by XTU.
BUT with higher fan speed, it went super cool, not even close the 85C.

I used to test some VR games. But, I noticed something terrible. The machine stuttered in many VR games. The same game tested on other machines (Razer 17, Predator 17, Omen 17) (be W11 and W10) ran smooth with no issues.
So I returned it with the idea of getting a Predator 18 with the 4080. I even did a windows reinstall and still was stuttering.

1. Has someone tried some VR games on the Predators 18?
2. Do you think the micro stutters happened because of Thermal Throttling or something else?
3. Even with the CPU temps under control, still stuttered.
4. Getting a Predator 4080 might help?

If there is some Predator 18 owners out there that would like to make a VR test, please let me know!

Thanks everybody!

 

[SillySir777]

I have the same laptop as OP have the same issues too, playing Ghost of Tsushima on max settings, on performance mode, fans it reaches 90+ Degrees per MSI afterburner and CPU throttles down to 3000+MHz.

On Turbo mode on, fans plays around 81+ degrees and CPU is at 5200mhz and up, highest I noticed was 5900mhz and lowest I noticed is 4900mhz, noisy for me though thats why im looking for a solution, I prefer performance mode and just at the 70s in temp but with optimum performance, I just use the laptop mostly for gaming.

I tried Throttlestop, never used it before, and putting PL1 and PL2 at 65w, Turbo time limit at 56. and Temps went down to 70s however I noticed CPU Mhz went down to 3900 to 4000mhz too, is that alright?

Would appreciate it @shruggygoat if you post your current settings here in Throttlestop that worked for you, thank you so much!