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Adding distilled water to ups batteries really work ?

We have some older Taylor Dunn trams at work that our mechanics will top off with distilled water at times. This is simply to extend the battery as much as possible before replacing it with a new one. If the access isn't readily available, then no, don't do it.
 
As lead acid reaches near full charge, its lead sulphate plates are finished being converted back to lead and lead dioxide respectively. After this we reach what engineeres call the "gassing stage" or "overcharge" stage or what is more commonly known as the absorbption stage, which is where the cell potential rises enough where electrolysis can begin, here oxygen gas is essentially produced at the postive elecrode/electrolyte interface and in a VRLA that gas diffuses over to the negative electrode where it recombines at the negative interface using the incoming electrons and water in a series of reactions. This maintains the cells stotiometric balance. Wheras in an open wet cell the oxygen gas at positive and even hydrogen gas at negative bubble up through the water and vent out the caps resulting in water loss. In lead acid, the cell potential or emf is direct function of the electrolyte temp and concentration of sulphuric acid, the cells amper hour capacity is directly proportional to this concentration of acid. So as you lose water you gain acidity and a higher emf (why vrla have a higher ocv), but also the electrolyte becomes more acidic, too acidic, this is one of the fundamental achilles heels of lead acid and why its is such an awful chemistry and why for example flooded nicad blows it out of the water for cycle life and calander life. Its acid attacks its electrodes and thermodynamically its a rather unstable chemistry.

UPS batteries are usually always VRLA (sla/ usually agm), which means they are sealed completley and must be sealed to remain pressurized in order to work properley, if the internal cell pressure isnt right the recombination process inside won't work well and could result in overcharge which will then lead to a loss of water and thus reduced capacity/runtime. No way to access them to top up in any practical way, even more so since these batteries are cheap mass produced shit.
The problem is the electrolyte in a vrla is in a precise starved state unlike wet cell which the electrodes are complelety flooded, its absorbed into the glass seperators and the surface of the porous lead plates, and done so in a very fine precise way that would be completley disrupted if acessed from the outside. Too much water will effect the high perf nature by ruining the chemical balance at each electrode and the dissfusivity of the oxygen as it mirates away from the positive over to the negative, a disruption here will cause a stoichiometric imbalance which will probably lead to hydrogen being formed at the negative too which will outgas and slowly ruin the battery. while too little will lead to corrosion on the pos plate in particular, however this will be very unlikely to achieve.
Some wet lead acids are even sealed up to and require a bit of work to access, they too use a similar recombination process as vrla to deal with water loss from the overcharge stage. But are mostly found in engine cranking apps.


Flooded Cell (commonly called "SLI" = Starting Lighting Ignition) are a bit different.
If your 'car battery' has caps like that, it likely is intended to be topped off with distilled water; to replace losses from evaporation and electrolysis*.
SLI can be open flooded or agm, its just an outdated term, like dual purpose, leasure battery etc.




It should be noted lead-acid battery technology is over 150 years old and really has not changed much since it was invented. The biggest improvements, IMO, is simply in the purity of the materials used to make them.

But until Man can create perfection 100% of the time, impurities are still likely and it does not take much of one to start building a bridge in the gap between the plates. And once further (and inevitable) buildup of contaminants complete the bridge spanning the gap, a short is created. And that short typically results in excessive heat buildup inside the cell - which typically results in a loss of voltage output as well as excessive pressures inside the battery case.
Incorrect. There have been huge improvements, like the high perf of vrla since the 80s, and the advent of the gel deep cycle rivaling the best flooded deep cycle in cycle life. Actually there is still much we don't know about lead acid due to budget constraints. We know quality can be improived on but its hard, the direct operational electrochemistry is quite complex unlike say li-ion.

Contaminants are not normally a problem! The main causes of failure are sulphation, active material shedding which can cause a soft short, and pos grid corrosion, shorts can happen by shedded plate material flaking off, but in lead acid the shorts dont heat the cell, they just cause a cell to self discharge rather rapidly which kills the cell. made worse by the fact most don't know how to service them and abuse them with poor charging practices.


This is commonly seen (and felt) by swelling, a bulging battery, and one that gets quite warm as it tries, but fails to fully charge. This also puts additional strain on the charging system as it has the impossible task of fully charging a battery that cannot be fully charged.

This swollen battery condition is sometimes seen in UPSs when you try to remove the batteries and discover they are stuck inside the UPS battery compartment. That should raise some serious red flags but I caution, that would be for significant swelling, nor necessarily minor.
Thats NOT how it works! swelling is largely normal in some ways, like with the ends but not the widths. The reason the cell gets warm is simply too much current flow and any exothermic reactions. Since vrla are a dry cell, they have no liquid mass to sink the heat away and the recombination gasses which carry alot of heat cant escape out side like in a open wet cell.
There is no strain on the charging system, unless you are pulling too many amps from it that causes it to get hot, in the latter stage of charging the charger will be supplying very little amps. In the eyes of the charger it will simply see a cont load which may muddle up the charge alogrithim, but many use simply cc/cv circuits and can deal with it.


Losses by electrolysis is an issue, mitigated by having catalysts in the caps (to recombine the hydrogen and oxygen)
but I don't know how recent this technology is.

Well inside a vrla there is no direct recombination as this would require energy input (making bonds) and balance is maintained largely by oxygen recombination at the negative alone and an oversized negative plate, but inside a sealed wet cell thats another story, you still get water looses, but this is mitigted by using lower charge voltages vs open wet cell, this means the lower voltages cannot be used to give the cell a good stir up (to correct stratification) and properly equalize all cells, this is why open cells last so long. Most sealed up wet batteries can only take <14.4V really.

Be really careful playing around with lead acid batteries, all kind of things can go wrong. A couple of guys ended up having one explode in their face when I did my national service. You can also get thermal runaway in them.
This is a very rare event that arises from poor practice, nothing more. The explosion results from the explosive hydrogen (h2) gas that builds up from overcharge or even drawing too much current being ignited by some spark like a dodgy battery charger circuitryor some short etc in poor ventilation. In proper setups with proper care, explosions just never really happen, still when you periodically equalize a wet cell you produce much more hydrogen gas and so forced ventilation here is mandatory.

Thermal runaway is a general term that refers to a feedback loop. In lead acid it refers to a situation where excess current is allowed to flow when the cell is fully charged which means exothermic reactions producing heat, this causes a slight drop in IR, which causes more current to flow and more recombination reactions producing even more heat, which causes a further drop in IR and so on until the electrolyte boils away the cell is ruined. In a vrla the pressure will build up and the water loss will be great which means reduced amp-hours followed by a physical ruined battery with possible nasty shorts. However this is very rare overall and usually happens from a malfunctioning charger thats voltage is allowed to rise too high, it wont happen on wet cell because the cell simply cant heat up like that, the water sinks the heat away to the surroundings and much of this heat leaves with the O2 & H2 gasses, the mass of electrolyte will just boil away slowly until the person notices. But in sealed vrla (agm & gel) with their dry electrolyte, these gasses stay inside the cell.

This situation is also present in sealed Ni-Cd & Ni-MH, only much much worse, which is why these are never float charged (charged with constant-voltage circuitry) as the voltage can be allowed to climb and ruin the cell. This is why ni-cd isnt used as an automobile starter, it would make an amazing battery if it did. Ni-Cd is the back bone of industry. Instead Ni based are charged using constant-current circuitry which is fine for the laymen, but CV can be done if the charging infrastructure is well set up with fail safes. Here, fires are possibly because any nearby commbustible materials might get hot enough.
Now this contrasts with Li-Ion, where the thermal runaway can lead to fires because of the flammable electrolyte solvent, the nasty exothermic reactions between the electrodes and electrolyte under electrcial abuse, and the fact li-ion produces its own oxidizer from inside-the oxygen that gets released from the postive electrode mainly. This is where too much current flows (usually from an internal short) which causes physical breakdown of say the oxide layer on the negative electrode, which exposes it to the electrolyte and a reaction happens that adds even more heat, which causes even more breakdown of the insides and even more nasty reactions and so on. At about 90-120C is where it starts, and once TR srarts, its impossible to stop, in Pb and Ni its very slow but in some li-ion it usually happens in an split second like when you crush an 18650 cell and it goes into flames. This is why all li-ion cells are limited to run at no more than 75-80C in extreme apps, the cells do have hard thermal protection, but nothing to stop an internal short.
 
Hi

I saw some youtube videos display that you can extend ups battery life by adding distilled water. Is that true and safe ?

Step one, identify the type of battery.
If anything other than lead acid (non-sealed), do not get any water near the things.

Step two, if an open lead acid battery (like in a car), pop the plastic caps off the cells, and check the fluid level. If there's crusty deposits around the cap then get some baking soda wash the crust away only once it stops bubbling. If the cells have gotten hot they can evaporate some of the water inside them. The term here is lead acid batteries because they are the only ones you want to do this for.

Step three, if any of the cells are low add in distilled water. If you've found crust you might need some extra acid. The idea is not to add more battery acid than was in there at the start. Why? The electrolyte is H2SO4...and the charge holders are lead plates. If you mess with the batteries they can either burn holes in plates, or otherwise cause issues. Remember, fill only to the point where you can reseal without causing fluid to splash out.

Step four is to clean everything with a mild baking soda paste...avoiding getting it in the cells and on the terminals, but you want any boiled out sulfuric acid to be neutralized.

Step five, then trickle charge the battery to full. You want the first recharge slow so that the cells charge evenly.



Why do I say any of this? Well, I once had somebody call me and say their car broke down. They were looking for my father, but I was ok. Drove to road 20 minutes away, watched that they couldn't crank the engine over, and noted the lights were weak. They said it just kind of quit out of nowhere...and I knew they ran this thing hot. Popped the hood, five minutes later had readings, then checked the dash. The voltage was low...so I asked them if I could go to the gas station for a minute, and I bought a bottle of water. Popped the battery covers, refilled 2 of the 8 cells, resealed the caps, and doused the battery in water to remove the crap (and to wash my hands). Turned key, car turned over, lights were normal...and I told them to get the cranking amps checked at the autozone the next day. They checked, 1 weak cell, and they got a replacement. 100% safe, assuming you treat it as a strong acid. 100% true, assuming that it was capable of evaporation.

This said, don't do it to sealed lead acid, or any other kind of battery. It's also not going to be a huge life extender, without verifying that running a cell dry hasn't caused permanent damage. And for the love of god don't do this without the right gear/precautions. Sulfuric acid has a huge list of warnings for a reason.
 
(sla/ usually agm)
Usually? Not even. It is clear you really don't understand the UPS battery market. While more and more, AGM batteries are coming on the market, but their added expense for typically small returns (longevity) hampers their growth. We see them in golf carts, wheel chairs, even lawn mowers. But not as prevalent in UPS.

Incorrect. There have been huge improvements
It is absolutely correct. Improvements yes, but the technologies are basically the same. If you took a just a moment to research the facts, you could see this is true.

Way back in the mid 19th century, Gaston Planté invented the first lead-acid battery. Planté’s design consisted of a pair of lead plates immersed in a solution of sulfuric acid. How is that significantly different from today? It is not.

Thats NOT how it works! swelling is largely normal in some ways
:( Normal? Total nonsense. It is NOT normal at all! Enough said. I've given your nonsensical comments more attention than they deserve.

Moving on.
 
We can all debate the can or can't, should or shouldn't, so let me offer you a practical approach: if you have basic needs, a brand new 700 VA mini-UPS costs next to nothing, not worth dealing with these dangerous chemicals and stuff or even replacing just the battery on the one you have, it'll cost about the same, unless you want to do something extra nice and upgrade to a nice, heavy duty LiFePo4 battery.

Some lead-acid batteries are designed to be user-serviceable, others are sealed, non-serviceable, maintenance-free VRLA batteries. In the case of the latter, the battery should be disposed of, hopefully according to local environmental regulations (take it to an auto or car battery shop) and replaced by a new unit with similar characteristics. Don't play MacGyver with something that could cause a fire or even worse, acid injuries that will deface your body and you'll never again recover from.
 
A 700VA UPS might cost $100 and the battery just $20, so it might make sense to just replace the battery rather than the whole unit.
 
I believe one can still get to the cells on some car batteries

View attachment 407945
That's not a battery

Now that is a battery
1752707663495.jpeg
 
A 700VA UPS might cost $100 and the battery just $20, so it might make sense to just replace the battery rather than the whole unit.

I think mine was $35 or so converted to USD, it's from a local brand but as a test I've cycled it and it ran my Mac mini under full load for over 2 hours before it shut down... but yeah, 20 bucks for a batt replacement isn't too bad, 20 bucks over tampering with lead acid IMHO, wise choice
 
Step one, identify the type of battery.
If anything other than lead acid (non-sealed), do not get any water near the things.

Step two, if an open lead acid battery (like in a car), pop the plastic caps off the cells, and check the fluid level. If there's crusty deposits around the cap then get some baking soda wash the crust away only once it stops bubbling. If the cells have gotten hot they can evaporate some of the water inside them. The term here is lead acid batteries because they are the only ones you want to do this for.

Step three, if any of the cells are low add in distilled water. If you've found crust you might need some extra acid. The idea is not to add more battery acid than was in there at the start. Why? The electrolyte is H2SO4...and the charge holders are lead plates. If you mess with the batteries they can either burn holes in plates, or otherwise cause issues. Remember, fill only to the point where you can reseal without causing fluid to splash out.

Step four is to clean everything with a mild baking soda paste...avoiding getting it in the cells and on the terminals, but you want any boiled out sulfuric acid to be neutralized.

Step five, then trickle charge the battery to full. You want the first recharge slow so that the cells charge evenly.



Why do I say any of this? Well, I once had somebody call me and say their car broke down. They were looking for my father, but I was ok. Drove to road 20 minutes away, watched that they couldn't crank the engine over, and noted the lights were weak. They said it just kind of quit out of nowhere...and I knew they ran this thing hot. Popped the hood, five minutes later had readings, then checked the dash. The voltage was low...so I asked them if I could go to the gas station for a minute, and I bought a bottle of water. Popped the battery covers, refilled 2 of the 8 cells, resealed the caps, and doused the battery in water to remove the crap (and to wash my hands). Turned key, car turned over, lights were normal...and I told them to get the cranking amps checked at the autozone the next day. They checked, 1 weak cell, and they got a replacement. 100% safe, assuming you treat it as a strong acid. 100% true, assuming that it was capable of evaporation.

This said, don't do it to sealed lead acid, or any other kind of battery. It's also not going to be a huge life extender, without verifying that running a cell dry hasn't caused permanent damage. And for the love of god don't do this without the right gear/precautions. Sulfuric acid has a huge list of warnings for a reason.
Another important thing to mention, NEVER add water to concentrated acid. Its exothermic when mixing the two, so always add the concentrated acid to the water slowly to avoid a buildup of heat that can result in it splashing/boiling.
 
unless you have a non sealed battery, and can actually test, you dont even know if it needs water or acid.

@Shrek
its not always evaporation, seen more than one time were ppl didnt care to test the (car) battery (low charge) and just hooked it up to the charger, with the battery gassing off during charging.
just adding water wouldnt do much, same for (empty) new batteries.

@Dr. Dro
unless i missed something, replacing a lead type battery in a UPS with any other type (lipo/lifo) is one of the worst ideas (unless the build in curcuit is a able to distinguish between types).
 
@Shrek
its not always evaporation, seen more than one time were ppl didnt care to test the (car) battery (low charge) and just hooked it up to the charger, with the battery gassing off during charging.
just adding water wouldnt do much, same for (empty) new batteries.

Absolutely, loss due to electrolysis; but adding water should work in this situation. One loses water (not sulfuric acid) be it due to evaporation or electrolysis.

New (empty) batteries are a different story.
 
a brand new 700 VA mini-UPS costs next to nothing, not worth dealing with... ...replacing just the battery on the one you have,
A 700VA UPS might cost $100 and the battery just $20, so it might make sense to just replace the battery rather than the whole unit.
Shrek is absolutely correct.

But,
if you have basic needs
Not sure what you mean by "basic needs". I assume you mean backup power only and not AVR (automatic voltage regulation). In my opinion, it is the AVR feature of a good UPS that is, by far, the most important feature. Backup power during a full power outage is just a minor bonus feature.

I live in Tornado Alley and we are frequently hit with severe storms. But according to my UPS logs, I've had only 1 full outage in the last 24 weeks lasting 1 hour, 34 minutes, and 17 seconds.

HOWEVER, the AVR feature intervened dozens of times, intercepting and suppressing surges and spikes. But also VERY important, the UPS AVR feature compensated for multiple dips (opposite of spikes), sags (opposite of surges) and brownouts (long duration sags) by using the batteries to "boost" output voltage to proper levels without kicking over to full battery backup power. Those are critical tasks no basic UPS can do.

For this reason, IMO, a "basic" UPS is good for Exit signs, emergency lighting, alarm clocks, or for use with other devices that are NOT so sensitive to power anomalies. But for computers and network devices, a "good" UPS with AVR is the only way to go. So IMO, every computer should be supported by one.

Last, I will point out that a 700VA UPS will only support a demand of ≈370W. That may be plenty for some folks, but if like me, and you also use your UPS to support your network devices and monitor (or 2 x 24" monitors for me) so you can still see what you are doing when the power goes out, if I am taxing my system at the time of the outage, no way will a 700VA/370W UPS support it and my system will come crashing down. Not good. :(

I think mine was $35 or so converted to USD
:eek: You sure that is an "UPS" and not just a power block? If truly an UPS, where it normally just passes the AC from the wall outlet but kicks over to battery backup automatically during a power outages, that is a fantastic price.

Got a link to that device?
 
Shrek is absolutely correct.

But,

Not sure what you mean by "basic needs". I assume you mean backup power only and not AVR (automatic voltage regulation). In my opinion, it is the AVR feature of a good UPS that is, by far, the most important feature. Backup power during a full power outage is just a minor bonus feature.

I live in Tornado Alley and we are frequently hit with severe storms. But according to my UPS logs, I've had only 1 full outage in the last 24 weeks lasting 1 hour, 34 minutes, and 17 seconds.

HOWEVER, the AVR feature intervened dozens of times, intercepting and suppressing surges and spikes. But also VERY important, the UPS AVR feature compensated for multiple dips (opposite of spikes), sags (opposite of surges) and brownouts (long duration sags) by using the batteries to "boost" output voltage to proper levels without kicking over to full battery backup power. Those are critical tasks no basic UPS can do.

For this reason, IMO, a "basic" UPS is good for Exit signs, emergency lighting, alarm clocks, or for use with other devices that are NOT so sensitive to power anomalies. But for computers and network devices, a "good" UPS with AVR is the only way to go. So IMO, every computer should be supported by one.

Last, I will point out that a 700VA UPS will only support a demand of ≈370W. That may be plenty for some folks, but if like me, and you also use your UPS to support your network devices and monitor (or 2 x 24" monitors for me) so you can still see what you are doing when the power goes out, if I am taxing my system at the time of the outage, no way will a 700VA/370W UPS support it and my system will come crashing down. Not good. :(


:eek: You sure that is an "UPS" and not just a power block? If truly an UPS, where it normally just passes the AC from the wall outlet but kicks over to battery backup automatically during a power outages, that is a fantastic price.

Got a link to that device?

Basic needs = low wattage requirement. It's an UPS, yes. But you probably won't find it over there, it's from a Brazilian company. Has 6 outlets, 3 are passthrough and 3 have battery backup. I purchased it to use with my CPAP machine, so it keeps working in case power goes out while I'm asleep.


Think it was 279 BRL when I purchased it, which translates to $50 taxes and express same day shipping included

@Dr. Dro
unless i missed something, replacing a lead type battery in a UPS with any other type (lipo/lifo) is one of the worst ideas (unless the build in curcuit is a able to distinguish between types).

You do have a point, but you might be thinking of traditional Lithium-ion batteries which are notoriously incompatible with lead acid circuits. There are modern LiFePo4 batteries that are designed for UPS use, the problem is that they are quite expensive.
 

"UPSs with PWM (Semi-sinusoidal) wave should not be used in computers or servers that have active PFC sources ..."


You do have a point, but you might be thinking of traditional Lithium-ion batteries which are notoriously incompatible with lead acid circuits. There are modern LiFePo4 batteries that are designed for UPS use, the problem is that they are quite expensive.

As low as $22 on amazon i.e. the same price as lead-acid
 
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"UPSs with PWM (Semi-sinusoidal) wave should not be used in computers or servers that have active PFC sources ..."

As low as $22 on amazon i.e. the same price as lead-acid

I believe we've already had a discussion on pure sine wave and PWM simulated sine wave UPSes before but had no idea that LiFePo4 had gone that cheap already :)
 
I believe we've already had a discussion on pure sine wave and PWM simulated sine wave UPSes before
We have, ad nauseum. I note Shrek was quoting that UPS data sheet. I also note it specifically says "semi-sinusoidal wave, which, by definition is 1/2 sinewave form. That is not the same as the approximated, stepped, or modified waveforms found in better UPSs sold by APC, Triplite, Cyberpower, Eaton and others.

I am a strong advocate for approximated, stepped, or modified waveform UPS on computers, if decent quality, as the need for pure sinewave is just marketing hype. But I would not use the "semi"-sinusoidal UPS on my computers, laser printers, or anything with a motor either.

And just FTR, if the price is right for a pure sinewave UPS that meets your needs, I say go for it! Just don't dismiss a good UPS with AVR just because it provides an approximated waveform. Remember, that ONLY applies when it is actually providing backup power. At all other times the AVR is just regulating the sinewave from the wall.

had no idea that LiFePo4 had gone that cheap already :)
The thing that scares me there is I don't recognize any of those brand names. And with the past history of cheap notebook, hoverboard, etc. batteries catching fire, blowing up, burning down houses, I have to wonder if these off-brand cheap batteries are safe.
 
semi-sinusoidal wave, which, by definition is 1/2 sinewave form.

Might I inquire as to what is '1/2 sinewave form?'

Just asking as I really don't know.
 
@Dr. Dro
sure, while the battery will have the correct 12V, the charger (designed for lead acid) will (usually) not protect against ULD/Overcharging, and probably damage it over time thru trickle charge and not apply any cell equalization, because it was never designed to handle those things in the first place.
thus why i question recommending LFP as replacement, unless its known to be used with a proper charger (system), read: ppl that know what they are doing).
 
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Might I inquire as to what is '1/2 sinewave form?'
I think that is much of the problem - had you ever heard of a "semi" sinewave before? I sure hadn't. So I had to look it up too and found it difficult learn much about it. It is also called "half-sine" - not to be confused with a rectified waveform where the bottom half is inverted.

Here's a good reference. If you can figure out what it says, please translate it back to us.

Anyway, from what I can gather, a "semi"-sinewave is closer to a squarewave, like a "2-step" squarewave than it is to a pure sinewave.

A semi-sinusoidal wave would look like this modified waveform image:
1752844605623.png


While the stepped approximated waveform from a "good" UPS would have many steps, like this:
1752844707851.png
 
Ah! it was the term I was not familiar with. Probably a result of the translation from Portuguese.

The article is on an unrelated topic.

So much to learn, so little time.
 
thus why i question recommending LFP as replacement, unless its known to be used with a proper charger (system), read: ppl that know what they are doing).
I wondered about this too. If you look at a typical rechargeable AA cell, they usually are actually rated at slightly less than the standard 1.5V AA battery. This is because of how they discharge. An alkaline, for example, discharges at a fairly steep rate. While Li-Ion batteries hold their voltage fairly high for long periods, then almost suddenly drop to a discharged state.

I would want the UPS charger to be smart enough to deal with the difference.

Ah! it was the term I was not familiar with.
Me too.
 
Don't forget if it causes a fire in you home you can kiss any insurance goodbye
just don't do it if it's a problem battery just replace it
 
Not sure how an insurance company could deny coverage. I'm not aware of any law prohibiting refilling these batteries. If you had to use some sort of cutting tool to remove the top, that might be a problem. But since these lids pop off.

Now, if your house burns, they may cancel your policy after that. But that would be after they paid up this time.
 
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