SMT and Power Management Behind "Kaby Lake" and "ZEN" Windows 10 Restrictions

Ferrum Master · Sep 7, 2016

Frick said:
They do.

And is called LTSB.

bug · Sep 7, 2016

laszlo said:
... point is you can't say one OS is obsolete once you still sell it....

Except MS isn't selling Win7 any longer. OEMs are.
And I wouldn't call Win7 obsolete, it's more than capable still. It's just that it's unrealistic to expect new hardware support to be added to it.

Vayra86 · Sep 7, 2016

laszlo said:
win7 support end 2020....

View attachment 78581

But. Windows 7 won't run any worse than advertised or than it actually was, even on the newer CPUs it will run just fine. Will it run as well as Windows 10? Probably not, but hey, that's all about the choices you make as a consumer. Not in the least because you were given a FREE opportunity to upgrade to the latest version and get these improvements for zero nada nothing, and you can't find a single OEM system sold today that has Kaby Lake/Zen ánd W7 on it, and you never will - at the same time an OEM license is tied to the motherboard, so that makes full circle right there, you can't physically have a new OEM W7 system with Kaby Lake or Zen in it and an official license.

All things considered, MS has been extremely lenient with the Windows adoption. Yes they pushed it a little, but given the disaster that was Windows XP (and the stagnation that has come with it) I can fully understand that push - even so you always had the opportunity to make a conscious choice of going back to W7 or 8. They gave away 'free' license upgrades for a full year and they support the older OS until 2020.

Now compare that to Android system support for phones, or the forced iOS and OSX updates that cripple your hardware over time and you can see how well MS is doing in the larger scheme of things. If this is MS's version of 'planned obsolescence' then I would really like more of that with other companies.

cdawall · Sep 7, 2016

_Flare said:
AMD i hope you did not make the same mistake twice !!!

There will always be a hardware and software side. AMD will probably not see crazy gains in windows based OS's for at least a generation and then it will work reasonably well. Linux OS custom built for an AMD chip? Whole different world in the same way that Piledriver and Bulldozer raped in servers up until 4th gen i series finally caught up in multithreading. They didn't surpass AMD's ability to multithread until Broadwell/Skylake.

eidairaman1 · Sep 7, 2016

Hope theres a option to turn that off so the cpu can run full tilt at all times in bios and os. Only truly needed for laptops

evernessince · Sep 7, 2016

Vayra86 said:
But. Windows 7 won't run any worse than advertised or than it actually was, even on the newer CPUs it will run just fine. Will it run as well as Windows 10? Probably not, but hey, that's all about the choices you make as a consumer. Not in the least because you were given a FREE opportunity to upgrade to the latest version and get these improvements for zero nada nothing, and you can't find a single OEM system sold today that has Kaby Lake/Zen ánd W7 on it, and you never will - at the same time an OEM license is tied to the motherboard, so that makes full circle right there, you can't physically have a new OEM W7 system with Kaby Lake or Zen in it and an official license.

All things considered, MS has been extremely lenient with the Windows adoption. Yes they pushed it a little, but given the disaster that was Windows XP (and the stagnation that has come with it) I can fully understand that push - even so you always had the opportunity to make a conscious choice of going back to W7 or 8. They gave away 'free' license upgrades for a full year and they support the older OS until 2020.

Now compare that to Android system support for phones, or the forced iOS and OSX updates that cripple your hardware over time and you can see how well MS is doing in the larger scheme of things. If this is MS's version of 'planned obsolescence' then I would really like more of that with other companies.

Pushed a little? In what world is "left for work and my computer is windows 10 when I get back" or "the x button on the windows means you accept the upgrade" a little push? Don't even try to downplay that, Microsoft's upgrade tactics for windows 10 were worse than malware in most cases.

The only way one could consider windows XP is a disaster is if they are considering Microsoft's push to upgrade. In what way is Microsoft's most popular OS a bad thing? The fact that people stuck to that OS shines to it's popularity.

You know a company is ass backwards when their currently most popular OS isn't getting an update for the latest hardware. I guess that's why I see more and more people moving to linux, mac, and android.

Audiophizile · Sep 8, 2016

evernessince said:
Pushed a little? In what world is "left for work and my computer is windows 10 when I get back" or "the x button on the windows means you accept the upgrade" a little push? Don't even try to downplay that, Microsoft's upgrade tactics for windows 10 were worse than malware in most cases.

The only way one could consider windows XP is a disaster is if they are considering Microsoft's push to upgrade. In what way is Microsoft's most popular OS a bad thing? The fact that people stuck to that OS shines to it's popularity.

You know a company is ass backwards when their currently most popular OS isn't getting an update for the latest hardware. I guess that's why I see more and more people moving to linux, mac, and android.

Do many companies support an over 7 year old OS? I know android doesn't. Apple stopped support on snow leopard (2009) in early 2014... So anybody wanting longer support surely aren't going to apple or android. Its kind of silly not to upgrade to a faster more secure OS especially when its free.

TRWOV · Sep 8, 2016

_Flare said:
So ONE big thing of the "Bulldozer-Fail" was obviously that too much of the CPU-Management was NOT IN HARDWARE, not only that, it needed the Software of other Companies: Microsoft etc.

To not rely on the Hardware-Solutions of your own engineers, OMG.

AMD i hope you did not make the same mistake twice !!!

The OS needs to be aware of the capabilities of the processor in order to take advantage of them. When Intel introduced HT on the P4 CPUs Microsoft had to patch XP in order to take advantage of that feature and there was another patch when the Core 2 Duos (Quads?) launched. If AMDs SMT implementation is different from Intel's ad ca't be handled the same way (just as it was the case with Bulldozer) then a kernel patch is a given.

ZeDestructor · Sep 8, 2016

eidairaman1 said:
Hope theres a option to turn that off so the cpu can run full tilt at all times in bios and os. Only truly needed for laptops

You want it on desktops too. Sure, 20W doesn't mean much to you, but 20W over millions of people is a massive energy savings.

Audiophizile · Sep 8, 2016

ZeDestructor said:
You want it on desktops too. Sure, 20W doesn't mean much to you, but 20W over millions of people is a massive energy savings.

True. Most things are becoming more power/energy efficient which is great but the enthusiast community really just wants faster. I personally don't go for a max oc but I do run a constant clock because I game and don't ever want my CPU to back down.

ZeDestructor · Sep 8, 2016

Audiophizile said:
True. Most things are becoming more power/energy efficient which is great but the enthusiast community really just wants faster. I personally don't go for a max oc but I do run a constant clock because I game and don't ever want my CPU to back down.

I've had speedstep/turbo on and off over the past 4 years or so. I've seen no benefit to having my 3570K locked at 4.4GHz vs being adaptive: whenever a games spins up, it ramps straight up to max very nicely, and stays there. So I keep it on, since a lot of the time I'm in idling online or doing work rather than gaming.

bug · Sep 8, 2016

ZeDestructor said:
You want it on desktops too. Sure, 20W doesn't mean much to you, but 20W over millions of people is a massive energy savings.

And it may let you turn off one more fan

Caring1 · Sep 8, 2016

Audiophizile said:
Its kind of silly not to upgrade to a faster more secure OS especially when its free.

It's kind of silly not to support the most popular O.S. (W7) to make it faster and more secure, especially when people already bought it and like it.

Ubersonic · Sep 8, 2016

Caring1 said:
It's kind of silly not to support the most popular O.S. (W7) to make it faster and more secure, especially when people already bought it and like it.

If you added all the features of Windows 10 to Windows 7 then it would be Windows 10

Vayra86 · Sep 8, 2016

evernessince said:
Pushed a little? In what world is "left for work and my computer is windows 10 when I get back" or "the x button on the windows means you accept the upgrade" a little push? Don't even try to downplay that, Microsoft's upgrade tactics for windows 10 were worse than malware in most cases.

The only way one could consider windows XP is a disaster is if they are considering Microsoft's push to upgrade. In what way is Microsoft's most popular OS a bad thing? The fact that people stuck to that OS shines to it's popularity.

You know a company is ass backwards when their currently most popular OS isn't getting an update for the latest hardware. I guess that's why I see more and more people moving to linux, mac, and android.

LOL.

And you totally didn't have the opportunity to roll back to Win 7, right? Also, it's extremely typical that these 'ninja installs' happened only on the least tech savvy of people, probably the same people who click every dialog box OK they see and then wonder why all of a sudden their 'browser is magically hacked or infected'.

Go home please. You mistake 'most popular' with downright lazy and general not-giving-a-shit PC users. If you still ran XP when Windows 10 was released, that's all it is and all it will ever be. Also, none of this changes the other facts I put forward and that you happily ignore, such as the fact that there will not be a single W7 OEM PC with Kaby Lake or Zen on it.

Frick · Sep 8, 2016

ZeDestructor said:
I've had speedstep/turbo on and off over the past 4 years or so. I've seen no benefit to having my 3570K locked at 4.4GHz vs being adaptive: whenever a games spins up, it ramps straight up to max very nicely, and stays there. So I keep it on, since a lot of the time I'm in idling online or doing work rather than gaming.

I dunno if my Win7 install was buggy, but I definitely felt a difference when disabling Speedstep (Pentium G3220). When I got an SSD it was really noticeble how things worked smoother. It works better in Windows 10 though, so I think it was a Windows 7 thing, or a driver thing.

ZeDestructor · Sep 8, 2016

Caring1 said:
It's kind of silly not to support the most popular O.S. (W7) to make it faster and more secure, especially when people already bought it and like it.

7 going out of mainstream support literally means that it's not getting any feature or speed improvements, only security ones. What else did you expect?

Ubersonic said:
If you added all the features of Windows 10 to Windows 7 then it would be Windows 10

Interestingly enough, this does mean that 10 will be exactly that - lots of small features all incrementally added bit by bit. Reminds me very much of my ArchLinux rolling release install...

Vayra86 said:
LOL.

And you totally didn't have the opportunity to roll back to Win 7, right? Also, it's extremely typical that these 'ninja installs' happened only on the least tech savvy of people, probably the same people who click every dialog box OK they see and then wonder why all of a sudden their 'browser is magically hacked or infected'.

Go home please. You mistake 'most popular' with downright lazy and general not-giving-a-shit PC users. If you still ran XP when Windows 10 was released, that's all it is and all it will ever be. Also, none of this changes the other facts I put forward and that you happily ignore, such as the fact that there will not be a single W7 OEM PC with Kaby Lake or Zen on it.

I have to concur here. Literally nobody I know had a surprise Windows 10. I will however admit that all those people had all upgraded to 10 by month 3, so there is that...

Frick said:
I dunno if my Win7 install was buggy, but I definitely felt a difference when disabling Speedstep (Pentium G3220). When I got an SSD it was really noticeble how things worked smoother. It works better in Windows 10 though, so I think it was a Windows 7 thing, or a driver thing.

Weird.. Could just be me having twice as much minimum on the quad-core (they run just as slow at minimum, but double the cores) on the desktop. Didn't notice anything on the laptops (HT dual-cores there as well...) though, so it could just as well be software shenanigans.

bug · Sep 8, 2016

Caring1 said:
It's kind of silly not to support the most popular O.S. (W7) to make it faster and more secure, especially when people already bought it and like it.

I'd like to know what's your interpretation of "end of mainstream support".

Caring1 · Sep 8, 2016

bug said:
I'd like to know what's your interpretation of "end of mainstream support".

Obviously not the same as Microsoft's, version, which involves a gravy train and cash flow.

EarthDog · Sep 8, 2016

ZeDestructor said:
You want it on desktops too. Sure, 20W doesn't mean much to you, but 20W over millions of people is a massive energy savings.

Indeed.

Here is a tree... you know what to do... BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG HUGS!

Vayra86 · Sep 8, 2016

Caring1 said:
Obviously not the same as Microsoft's, version, which involves a gravy train and cash flow.

Yeah it's weird that companies want to make money in our capitalist society.

I'm puzzled every day

Audiophizile · Sep 8, 2016

Caring1 said:
It's kind of silly not to support the most popular O.S. (W7) to make it faster and more secure, especially when people already bought it and like it.

Again, I don't know of any companies that support a 7 year old os at all. At least ms is still doing security updates. Do any companies that make more expensive software (adobe,etc.) support their 7 year old versions? Most electronics cost more than a copy of windows and lose support much sooner than 7 years. Complaining they aren't making speed updates on anything tech related that's over 7 years is definitely silly.

bug · Sep 8, 2016

Caring1 said:
Obviously not the same as Microsoft's, version, which involves a gravy train and cash flow.

I'd still like to know.

Caring1 · Sep 8, 2016

bug said:
I'd still like to know.

It's irrelevant, as it's not my decision to end support.

bug · Sep 8, 2016

Audiophizile said:
Again, I don't know of any companies that support a 7 year old os at all. At least ms is still doing security updates. Do any companies that make more expensive software (adobe,etc.) support their 7 year old versions? Most electronics cost more than a copy of windows and lose support much sooner than 7 years. Complaining they aren't making speed updates on anything tech related that's over 7 years is definitely silly.

RHEL gets like 10 years of support. But that's an enterprise product and even that doesn't get support for newer CPU architectures. I think RHEL5 is stuck somewhere at Haswell.

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SMT and Power Management Behind "Kaby Lake" and "ZEN" Windows 10 Restrictions

Ferrum Master

bug

Vayra86

cdawall

where the hell are my stars

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman

evernessince

Audiophizile

TRWOV

ZeDestructor

Audiophizile

ZeDestructor

bug

Caring1

Ubersonic

Vayra86

Frick

Fishfaced Nincompoop

ZeDestructor

bug

Caring1

EarthDog

Vayra86

Audiophizile

bug

Caring1

bug

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