Intel Scraps 10nm for Desktop, Brazen it Out with 14nm Skylake Till 2022?

[DeathtoGnomes]

If they get a tiny IPC lift (7-8%) but can boost the clockspeeds then they will be on top by a decent margin. If they can lower latency even more then it will be tough for intel to keep up.

i'm more in favor of latency being a priority.

 

[NicklasAPJ]

But is this the big issue, it is broken! There still no full Intel hardware fix for Spectre/Meltdown? The architecture is still vulnerable? And enabling multi-threading again makes this worse?

like any normal person Care about that...

 

[Super XP]

AMD lacks frequency IMO. I miss the 5ghz club.....

ZEN3 will see a 200MHz + boost in CPU Frequency.

This statement are right on the heels.For long time, Intel known to be good at building brand awareness, it's hard to get over with it.Their money is well spend toward marketing and "rebate". It's not a secret that OEM and channel partner are giving rebates and offering rewards if you engaging with particular product.
Time will tell, let's see if Fiat Multipla clouded with billions of dollar can run another year

Offering rewards is what got Intel is legal trouble which they were forced to pay AMD Billions in damages.
Incentives is OK to a certain extent, but rewards for knocking out the competition is illegal.

But is this the big issue, it is broken! There still no full Intel hardware fix for Spectre/Meltdown? The architecture is still vulnerable? And enabling multi-threading again makes this worse?

No fix will mitigate Intel's CPU malware and security issues. It's was a deliberate design technique to squeeze out more performance and years later got caught.
Intel needs a new design built from the ground up. That's most likely why they hired Jim Keller. I can see something new by 2023 to 2025.

 

[notb]

You mean laptop, singular not plural?

"Mobile segment" is singular... whatever the importance of that is.

If AMD doubles they'll have 100% growth in share... right?

Yes. But they won't. They can't make that many 7nm CPUs.

That's the fundamental background of this Intel-AMD battle.
AMD can make very advanced designs that depend on very limited technology - because they're fine selling 10% of what Intel does.
Intel has to design CPUs that they can make in quantities their partners demand.
That's why the existing 10nm supply goes to fairly low-volume products: mobile multimedia SoCs and Nervana.

Intel could redesign Skylake for TSMC's 7nm, but what's the point? I doubt it'd even saturate demand coming from Dell alone.

No fix will mitigate Intel's CPU malware and security issues. It's was a deliberate design technique to squeeze out more performance and years later got caught.
Intel needs a new design built from the ground up. That's most likely why they hired Jim Keller. I can see something new by 2023 to 2025.

Speculative execution was invented in the 80's and utilized by almost all CPU makers - including AMD that you worship so much.

And yes: it was expected that this technique will make some type of attack possible, but no one managed to exploit it until 2016.
It happened, se we had to sacrifice some of the gains. That's all. Stop whining.

 

[Super XP]

"Mobile segment" is singular... whatever the importance of that is.

Yes. But they won't. They can't make that many 7nm CPUs.

That's the fundamental background of this Intel-AMD battle.
AMD can make very advanced designs that depend on very limited technology - because they're fine selling 10% of what Intel does.
Intel has to design CPUs that they can make in quantities their partners demand.
That's why the existing 10nm supply goes to fairly low-volume products: mobile multimedia SoCs and Nervana.

Intel could redesign Skylake for TSMC's 7nm, but what's the point? I doubt it'd even saturate demand coming from Dell alone.

Speculative execution was invented in the 80's and utilized by almost all CPU makers - including AMD that you worship so much.

And yes: it was expected that this technique will make some type of attack possible, but no one managed to exploit it until 2016.
It happened, se we had to sacrifice some of the gains. That's all. Stop whining.

You must be new around here, seeing how you think I umm warship AMD so much. Interesting to even suggest such a thing.
Nobody is whining but those that prefer Intel CPU's and Intel themselves.

 

[notb]

You must be new around here, seeing how you think I umm warship AMD so much. Interesting to even suggest such a thing.

Lets say you don't. Or whatever. I don't care.

You like to talk about speculative execution. Why not spend an evening learning what it is?

 

[yeeeeman]

This is just a PR hit from hardwareluxx and unfortunately all respectable media outlets copy pasted it since it generates traffic. Niiiice

 

[Deleted member 185158]

ZEN3 will see a 200MHz + boost in CPU Frequency.


Offering rewards is what got Intel is legal trouble which they were forced to pay AMD Billions in damages.
Incentives is OK to a certain extent, but rewards for knocking out the competition is illegal.


No fix will mitigate Intel's CPU malware and security issues. It's was a deliberate design technique to squeeze out more performance and years later got caught.
Intel needs a new design built from the ground up. That's most likely why they hired Jim Keller. I can see something new by 2023 to 2025.

will see 200mhz increase?
That would be nice and yield the 10% gain without changing anything except frequency.....

 

[INSTG8R]

Needs more +...

 

[R-T-B]

No, see the source link.


Sorry, it was a bit of a joke, considering all the issues Intel has had. It's not impossible that they'll fix all the known issues by the time this thing comes out.

Hardware fixes for meltdown have been in place since coffee lake. Spectre is another matter, on both sides.

 

[notb]

Hardware fixes for meltdown have been in place since coffee lake. Spectre is another matter, on both sides.

As visible here:

The Mitigation Impact Difference On AMD Ryzen 9 3900X vs. Intel Core i9 9900K Performance - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

9900K means Meltdown is taken care of in hardware, so it's Spectre vs Spectre.

Phoronix also did a few comparisons of earlier CPUs (also Xeon vs EPYC), where Intel side has both Spectre and Meltdown mitigations (AMD just Spectre).

 

[hat]

It's looking grim at Intel. Scrapping the 10nm node (at least on desktop) and jumping to 7nm lends credence to a few inferences that are not so good for Intel. Their 10nm node is still crap, and if they can't make desktop parts with it, that means either they can only crank out low power, low performance (mobile) parts with it, and/or the yields are terrible. The latter, at least, is true if they manage to make higher performing parts for the server market, but not the desktop market. Laptops might be a bigger market then desktops, but plenty of desktops are still being sold, yeah? It would be a mistake to shrug off the desktop market like it's nothing. Now, I realize I'm on an enthusiast forum of sorts, but I can't be the only one in the world who prefers desktops to laptops, or worse, tablets and such.

Of course, we know next to nothing about Intel's 7nm node at this time... who's to say they won't have the same problems with their 7nm node?

 

[jgraham11]

But is this the big issue, it is broken! There still no full Intel hardware fix for Spectre/Meltdown? The architecture is still vulnerable? And enabling multi-threading again makes this worse?

Yeah most of the big server companies have come out and said they are disabling Hyper-Threading on all their Intel servers, Google, Microsoft, Amazon... its the same problem on their desktop CPUs...

Don't forget the other ones other than spectre and meltdown: Foreshadow, ZombieLoad, Fallout, RidL

Also remember that most of these issues were known when they released their 7th and 8th Gen Processors... So they released a knowingly broken product.

 

[Chrispy_]

In a shocking piece of news

I love some grade-A dry sarcasm!

Update Oct 15th - Intel has released a statement, denying these claims

I am shocked.
/deadpan

 

[Jorge Nascimento]

I think everyone saw this coming. AMD Stock, here I come.

I bought 2000 shares of AMD when the price was 1.98 a piece back when they anounced Polaris, when the stock reached a price of 27 dollars i sold them. EZ money, the only tech company that raised 400% in the last decade.

Haha, oh wow. And here I was hoping to hold out a little and get 10nm cpu from intel to upgrade for the new console gen from my 6700k. I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too, so it’s very curious to see how hardware releases will play out next year alongside new ps/xbox release.

Your 6700k is already dead since ryzen came out, keep waiting on the side walk while everyone else moves along and evolves past the One brand cpu market.

well, it’s highly unlikely zen 3 will release on am4, and even so, it’s not expected to be any significant uplift over zen2. So amd will at best only match intel in gaming.

AMD surpased Intel in everything that gives billions, the server market, and is almost at the same lvl of Intel at gaming with the funny fact of having lower clocks that almost match a vulcano Shintel at 5.0 with a extra chiller on the side.

get your facts straight pls!!

 

[notb]

It's looking grim at Intel.

It really doesn't. They're fine in mobile and servers with new arch and 10nm arriving soon.
Mainstream desktops (4-6 cores) can remain on 14nm.

High-end desktop is a weird market. With current margins it isn't very attractive anymore and Intel would love to dump it. If AMD is fine with those margins - let them have it.
But that would only work in an ideal world where people do conscious decisions based on full information. And the world it's not like that.

In reality, high-end desktop is doing most of the PR. These CPUs are covered in reviews and that's what people read and talk about.
Also, everyone knows a PC geek and he will likely have a powerful desktop - and that's the person we turn to for PC advice.

So Intel will try to stay relevant in this game by all means possible - most likely pushing HEDT down to make it more popular. And lowering prices.
Because $1 lost on desktops may mean $3 earned somewhere else.

Their 10nm node is still crap, and if they can't make desktop parts with it, that means either they can only crank out low power, low performance (mobile) parts with it, and/or the yields are terrible.

Even if their 10nm can't do high frequencies, it's not a big deal for their product profile. Mobile and servers will work fine.
It was a bit different with AMD and Zen/Zen+. AMD focuses on gamers. They were very dependent on TSMC providing chips with higher clocks.

Laptops might be a bigger market then desktops, but plenty of desktops are still being sold, yeah? It would be a mistake to shrug off the desktop market like it's nothing.

But most desktops are OEM home/business machines. Intel can cover that with 14nm.
You're really thinking about high-end gaming desktops (the stuff forums like this one focus on). And that market is relatively small for Intel.

Of course, we know next to nothing about Intel's 7nm node at this time... who's to say they won't have the same problems with their 7nm node?

Because they started very early with 10nm. They were alone and they had some ideas that didn't work well. But it's a big investment, so they kept working on it...
With Intel there's always the issue of scale. They don't need a 10nm node that just works in some products. They need a 10nm node that will work for 400 mln - very diversified - chips yearly.
In the meantime TSMC and Samsung caught up and went straight past.

Intel's 7nm is expected to be launched with competing 5nm for Samsung and TSMC. No rushing this time. Let's hope it works.

I bought 2000 shares of AMD when the price was 1.98 a piece back when they anounced Polaris, when the stock reached a price of 27 dollars i sold them. EZ money, the only tech company that raised 400% in the last decade.

I'm pretty sure there are other tech companies in the world that moved from dog shit level to actually making some money.
The fact that a huge, mainstream company like AMD moved from $2 in 2015 to $30 in 2019 is not something to be proud of.

 

[Hardware Geek]

Aka glue quad cores together from mobile and hope they can give them away for free to hold the mass exodus to epyc.

But they will be in very limited supply, so game over man.

Agreed. Their 10nm has been a disaster. I suspect ASML has orders from Intel for their 7nm. I do love the competition though, we are finally seeing improvement after years of stagnation! I'm not an Intel or an AMD fanboy. I buy what is best for my needs and budget at the time, but I'm pretty sure my next upgrade will be to threadripper.

 

[John Naylor]

Why give a hoot about die size, core count or anything else that doesn't necessarily affect application performance ? All that is relevant is performance in the apps that you wanna run, and core counts, and die size are clearly not determining what serves the needs of 99.5% of PC users. If the manufacturers is focusing it's marketing on this stuff, they clearly do not want to talk about application performance.

 

[Chrispy_]

Why give a hoot about die size, core count or anything else that doesn't necessarily affect application performance ? All that is relevant is performance in the apps that you wanna run, and core counts, and die size are clearly not determining what serves the needs of 99.5% of PC users. If the manufacturers is focusing it's marketing on this stuff, they clearly do not want to talk about application performance.

I also care about power consumption, temperatures, noise levels, performance/$, exploit vulnerabilities, regular driver/firmware/utility updates, and platform longevity.

Price and core counts sure are important, but they are far from everything that matters.

 

[Super XP]

will see 200mhz increase?
That would be nice and yield the 10% gain without changing anything except frequency.....

Agreed.
Multiple sources state that ZEN 3 could see IPC gains of over 8% and up to 200 MHz faster clock speeds over ZEN2.
Looking forward to ZEN3, as it stands that may be my next upgrade. At the moment, my ZEN is doing just fine in and out of PC Gaming....

 

[Deleted member 185158]

Agreed.
Multiple sources state that ZEN 3 could see IPC gains of over 8% and up to 200 MHz faster clock speeds over ZEN2.
Looking forward to ZEN3, as it stands that may be my next upgrade. At the moment, my ZEN is doing just fine in and out of PC Gaming....

Im happy with my Zen+ 100%!!
Never do I use all 16 threads.
Never does it get hot unless I bench on it or F@H ect.

And lately, been running a low pwer state which enables me to passively cool the processor.
Still games even at 3.0ghz 0.9v.
Still maintains max settings CODBO IV and around 80 fps at 1080p.

Good stuff.

 

[notb]

I also care about power consumption, temperatures, noise levels, performance/$, exploit vulnerabilities, regular driver/firmware/utility updates, and platform longevity.

Things you've mentioned here are important for clients.

But die size? Core count? IPC?
It's really sad that people care about such things. It shows that the group that likes to mock marketing is just as susceptible as everyone else.

Im happy with my Zen+ 100%!!
Never do I use all 16 threads.

Why would you be 100% happy if you can't use all threads?

 

[Deleted member 185158]

Things you've mentioned here are important for clients.

But die size? Core count? IPC?
It's really sad that people care about such things. It shows that the group that likes to mock marketing is just as susceptible as everyone else.

Why would you be 100% happy if you can't use all threads?

Because its a vast improvement over previous socket AMD processors. It was/is fairly priced.
It more than covers my needs.
Very good effeceincy in lower power states.
And thats all I can really ask for in an AMD product.

Yep 100% satisfied.

 

[Super XP]

Im happy with my Zen+ 100%!!
Never do I use all 16 threads.
Never does it get hot unless I bench on it or F@H ect.

And lately, been running a low pwer state which enables me to passively cool the processor.
Still games even at 3.0ghz 0.9v.
Still maintains max settings CODBO IV and around 80 fps at 1080p.

Good stuff.

That's Great,
And my 1700x running stock speed is more than enough for my needs.
Runs cool and quiet.

i'm more in favor of latency being a priority.

.
Ryzen's would benefit a lot more if they somehow prioritized latency.
Agreed.

 

[svan71]

"Meteor Lake." This chip will be built on Intel's swanky 7 nm EUV silicon fabrication node", why exactly should we believe this statement ?