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10870H CPU keep decreasing frequency while playing RDR2

LoxKoreys

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In the end of 2021 I purchased an Dell G15 5510, with a 10870H intel CPU.
And now, I am really concerned about this performance problem. While playing RDR2, the CPU frequency started with 4.0 Ghz, and after couple of minutes, the frequency kept reducing until it reached 1.7ghz, CPU usage increased. When I checked the limit box, it showed PL1 red, TVB yellow in CORE section; EDP other red in RING section. This is my settings.
1707632592821.png
1707632605254.png
1707632618825.png

Surprisingly, when I pressed esc to enter the pause menu, the frequency went back to 4.0 Ghz, if I continue the game, it reduced as well.
No changes can solve this problem even I turn all the game settings to the lowest, this issue still comes out. Can someone help me?
 

de.das.dude

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its a laptop. so its hitting its power/thermal limits.

frequency under load is quite different from frequency without load. without load, CPUs will be more eager to clock up to boost frequencies.
 

LoxKoreys

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Em, but why the frequency reduced so much, maybe it should only decrease to 3.5Ghz or little lower? Is there anything problem with my throttle stop settings?
 

de.das.dude

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install hwinfo and see what your temps are when you are playing. a CPU will never go beyond its safe temp, so sometimes that means reducing its clocks as much as it needs to stay within safe operating values.

you may want to check this thread:
 

unclewebb

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it showed PL1 red
Many Dell laptops have a severe power limit throttling problem. This first started with Dell laptops using Intel 8th Gen CPUs. It is a problem that Dell never owned up to let alone fixed. Speed and power consumption can be reduced far below the Intel rated specs. There is no simple fix for this issue. The throttling scheme that Dell engineers dreamed up is horrible.

Start by powering off your computer, restart and update to ThrottleStop 9.6
Delete the previous ThrottleStop.INI configuration file.

Check the MMIO Lock box which is near the top right of the TPL window in the new version. On the main screen check the Log File box and then go play a game for at least 15 minutes. Play however long it takes to go through some throttling episodes. When finished testing, exit the game and then exit ThrottleStop so it can finalize the log file. This file will be in your ThrottleStop / Logs folder. Attach a log file so I can get a better understanding of the problem you are having.

Intel thermal throttling works fantastic. They designed their CPUs to run as fast as possible. If an Intel CPU ever reaches 100°C, it will slow down as little as possible to maintain maximum performance for a smooth user experience. Intel designs their CPUs so they can safely run for hours on end at 99°C to 100°C if necessary.

Someone at Dell must have thought this was a bad idea. Dell decided to create their own throttling scheme that overrides the well thought out Intel throttling methods. When a Dell laptop gets too hot, it starts reducing power consumption. It uses an embedded controller (EC) to lower the turbo power limits to a ridiculously low level. A CPU with a 45W TDP rating might be reduced to 15W or less. Some laptops try to go as low as 0 Watts which reduces a computer to its lowest possible speed. Performance plummets and this can continue on for long periods of time or even indefinitely. The result is poor performance and low FPS. Playing a game can become a slide show. Sound familiar?

Dell's decision to lock down the FIVR voltage settings means there are few options available to try and control this problem. Avoid letting the CPU temperature ever reach 100°C. The Dell power limit throttling scheme might be triggered by the average CPU temperature or perhaps some other separate sensor within your computer. Try slowing your computer down so it does not get too hot. A simple test would be to check the Disable Turbo box on the main screen of ThrottleStop. A 10870H will only run at 2.20 GHz when this box is checked which of course is pathetic. It will be interesting to see if you can play a game at this speed without triggering any power limit throttling.

If this works, then you can try finding a speed somewhere between 2.20 GHz and 4.00 GHz that works without triggering Dell's poorly engineered throttling scheme. To run your computer at a speed between these two values, clear the Disable Turbo box, in the TPL window check the Speed Shift box and adjust the Speed Shift Max value to however fast you want your computer to run. Try using a value of 30 to run the CPU at 3.00 GHz.

why the frequency reduced so much
That is a good question to ask Dell. They seem to have no answers for this question. They usually say, "it is working as designed". No other laptop manufacturer uses power limit throttling like this. Only Dell. Some truly irrational throttling schemes have been used in Dell laptops for at least 15 years. Dell laptops are the reason why ThrottleStop exists.
 

LoxKoreys

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Thanks for your professional advice Unclewebb, I followed your instructions, finished my log.
But this time it gets even worse, my CPU is working under 20 watts all the time, and frequency keeps jumping between 0.8 Ghz and 4.0 Ghz, FPS is always really low apparently.
Anyway, this is my log.

1707808234539.png

And why FIVR section is locked?
 

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unclewebb

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And why FIVR section is locked?
The BIOS has locked out CPU voltage control. The first FIVR screenshot you posted showed the same thing. Locked means locked. I do not know how to make this any clearer.

Post an updated screenshot of the TPL window. Check the MMIO Lock box which is near the top right of that window.

The log file shows lots of BD PROCHOT throttling. Clear the BD PROCHOT box on the main screen of ThrottleStop. The log file also shows lots of TVB - Thermal Velocity Boost throttling. This one only slows the CPU down 100 MHz so it is not nearly as serious compared to BD PROCHOT throttling. When the FIVR is locked, there is no way to fix TVB throttling.
 

LoxKoreys

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Here it is
1707812831837.png
I changed the settings after I finished the log collecting, but only adjusted PL1 and power limit 4.
The BIOS has locked out CPU voltage control. The first FIVR screenshot you posted showed the same thing. Locked means locked. I do not know how to make this any clearer.

Post an updated screenshot of the TPL window. Check the MMIO Lock box which is near the top right of that window.

The log file shows lots of BD PROCHOT throttling. Clear the BD PROCHOT box on the main screen of ThrottleStop. The log file also shows lots of TVB - Thermal Velocity Boost throttling. This one only slows the CPU down 100 MHz so it is not nearly as serious compared to BD PROCHOT throttling. When the FIVR is locked, there is no way to fix TVB throttling.
So um, is there anyway to unlock FIVR control? I really hope if TVB can be disabled.

Happily, after I finished the log and change a few settings except FIVR, the old problem is successfully solved, now CPU can work at 4.0 Ghz, 3.6 Ghz at lowest record in RDR2. Thank you so much for your help:)

Even the monitor data of MSI afterburner shows CPU is working in 100 degrees nearly all the time, the frequency won't get lower and neither will the power of it.
 
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The key word is "maximum", because no manufacturer recommends using their products in extreme conditions for a long time, and Intel is no exception. Therefore, encouraging the use of Intel processors at 100°C for hours is quite an abuse. Intel uses thermal safeguards to ensure that there is no immediate damage to the chip, which does not mean that 100°C is the normal operating temperature for their processors.

 

unclewebb

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CPU is working in 100 degrees nearly all the time
If you are happy with that, great. If you want less heat, reduce the PL1 and PL2 turbo power limits.

Most people do not need to check the PP0 Power Limit box. I usually set that limit to 0 and I set the PP0 Turbo Time Limit to the minimum, 0.0010 seconds.
 
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Have you cleaned out the heat sink and/or repasted with new thermal paste, maybe the old stuff is dried out.
1707850603885.png
 

unclewebb

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does not mean that 100°C is the normal operating temperature for their processors
Intel says up to 100°C is the "maximum safe operating temperature". Some are programmed to a slightly lower thermal throttling temperature and some have been set slightly higher than the standard 100°C value. Most 3rd Gen CPUs were set to 105°C. Some laptop manufacturers are using a PROCHOT Offset value of approximately 5°C which brings the thermal throttling temperature down to 95°C or slightly less. That is their own decision. It is not what Intel recommends.

Intel desktop and mobile CPUs have been using the same 100°C thermal throttling temperature since Core i was introduced 15+ years ago. I think if Intel was experiencing a lot of warranty claims because of heat exhaustion of their CPUs, they would have lowered this value years ago. Intel seems to be comfortable with users running their CPUs at high temperatures. I am confident that Intel did plenty of long term high temperature testing before deciding on this value.

1707856525327.png
 
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And does Intel state the time their processors can safely run at 100°C? Intel also states the maximum Turbo power at which its processors can operate, but points out that these may be short-term states. So it's worth adding one to the other. In desktops, my processors have never even come close to 90°C, but the specifics of laptops are different (!).
 

LoxKoreys

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I know that keep my CPU running in 100°C (without extended cooler) is absolutely not quite OK, but I actually have no other solutions to solve this, if I lower the PL1 limits or higher the prochot offset, my gaming experience can be miserable, btw, Dell G15 5510 do have a huge problem of cooling especially CPU cooling, to me this issue is not avoidable. But I have a extended cooler, works great, can make the temperature much lower (-6 or lower).

I did recently, but my cooling system of my laptop is pretty bad.
Have you cleaned out the heat sink and/or repasted with new thermal paste, maybe the old stuff is dried out.

And does Intel state the time their processors can safely run at 100°C?
Idk, but maybe Dell did some adjustments of it?
 
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First of all, you need to properly cool the processors in your laptop, so it's worth using all available means and regardless of whether you use the PTM 7950 or the Grizzly Carbonaut thermopad, properly implemented will give the expected effect.
 
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Alienware M18 (and some other models too) can operate well and even sustain 100W of CPU power at 100 degrees in hybrid mode (when you also simultaneously have 150+ W of GPU power). No tunning at all, results out of the box, you are welcome to watch the video below. It's not a question of temperature as it is, it is mostly about how it is all engeneered. If you are cuirious, there are 2 more notebooks that can do the same but with some dfferences.


The main idea is to know well what and especially how manufacturer set power limits and throttling. Some like Asus put 92-95 degrees for PROCHOT as default, it can be increased to like 97 but not higher because otherwise we immediately get BDPROCHOT. Other vendors may allow us to have PROCHOT up to 100 degrees but this barely helps because the system requres wide tunning to get its power outcome increased, but it is impossible to do without modded (unlocked) Bios and some specific knowledge and testing.

As mr unclewebb said, which is correct, 100-105 degrees for Intel is normal. I could be wrong but some AMDs have even higher, up to 115 degrees.
 
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As mr unclewebb said, which is correct, 100-105 degrees for Intel is normal. I could be wrong but some AMDs have even higher, up to 115 degrees.
Intel has never confirmed that long-term operation of their processors at maximum temperatures is safe for these chips (!).
So we can spin various legends about it.
 
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So we can spin various legends about it.
No legends here. See above what Alienware do. If Dell engeneers capable to put this all together and make work like that, then we may be rest assured. Some Chinese manufacturers do the same trick with 100+ degrees as i heard.
 

unclewebb

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Intel has never confirmed that long-term operation of their processors at maximum temperatures is safe for these chips
The opposite is also true. Intel has never stated that running their CPUs at less than the thermal throttling temperature is a bad thing to be doing.

The reality is that people play games for hours and hours every day on poorly cooled laptops with core temperatures constantly over 90°C. Without access to any long term test results, no one can say how bad this really is. Will a CPU fail within a year doing this or will it only last 10 years instead of 20 years? Most people seem to replace their computers long before they ever die from heat exhaustion. Intel does not seem to publicly provide any mean time before failure data that covers the use of their CPUs at consistently high temperatures.

I once read that Intel cannot guarantee the long term stability of their CPUs if you choose to operate them beyond 100°C. If that is true then the opposite must also be true. Intel does guarantee their processors for long term operation at temperatures below 100°C. Thermal throttling works great and is designed to always keep the CPU at a safe temperature.

Broom closets around the world are full of poorly cooled Intel powered servers that run 24/7 at consistent temperatures well beyond 90°C. The failure rate must be insignificant. That is why Intel has been mostly using the same 100°C thermal throttling temperature for 15+ years.

The early Core 2 Duo CPUs throttled at 90°C. Then Intel bumped that up to 100°C and bumped it again to 105°C. When Core i was introduced they went back to a more conservative 100°C but by 3rd Gen they gave 105°C another try. For 4th Gen and beyond, they have mostly used 100°C. It might be because of excessive failures at 105°C or it might be because Intel decided to go with a simple round number, 100°C. Most laptops use a PROCHOT offset value and tend to start thermal throttling at about 95°C. That helps keep mobile CPUs at an extra safe temperature.

That is my spin and I am sticking to it. When the forums are full of horror stories about Intel CPUs going ka-boom, then I might worry a little more about the CPU temperature.
 
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I try to have a rational approach, because I have been active in IT since the beginnings of PCs, i.e. since the turn of the 80s and 90s. A lot of time that taught me to read the manufacturers' documentation carefully, especially since nowadays there is no more boasting in it, but only reliable and verified information.
Thus, if I read about some parameters that are maximum, I do not discuss it, but accept it and use it.
 

unclewebb

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if I read about some parameters that are maximum, I do not discuss it, but accept it and use it.
Same here. When Intel states that the "maximum safe operating temperature" is 100°C, I accept that and use it. The whole point of thermal throttling is to always keep the CPU at a safe temperature. Intel thermal throttling has always worked great. It keeps the CPU on the safe side of the fence.
 

LoxKoreys

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Intel thermal throttling has always worked great
Agree, within the past few years my CPU didn't show any signs of its condition is getting worse, runs stably at 4.0 Ghz and often reaches 100 degrees.

But there must be some problem with Dell's design, I don't understand why CPU frequency actually reached 4.2 Ghz (gaming performance) in the first year I got this laptop, and the second year it jumped to 4.0 Ghz (gaming performance) then kept this until today.

System reinstallation and bios updates can't get back to its peak performance, not even throttlestop
 
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unclewebb

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I don't understand why CPU frequency actually reached 4.2 GHz (gaming performance) in the first year
There are Windows Updates and BIOS updates that happen all the time. Were you using ThrottleStop to report the GHz last year? A lot of monitoring software is not accurate when a CPU is either thermal throttling or power limit throttling.

No point in wondering about the CPU speed from last year. Unless you were running a TS log file, what you were seeing was probably not accurate anyhow. If you fix the thermal throttling problem, your laptop should run at its rated speed which is,

41 X 99.77 MHz = 4090.57 MHz

You cannot expect the CPU to maintain the full 41.00 multiplier if the CPU is reaching 100°C and thermal throttling.

The way Intel turbo boost works, that should be the typical speed that most games will run at. Older games that use less cores might be able to use the 43 multiplier. Newer Nvidia drivers might be written to keep more cores active. Perhaps that is why you have noticed a change in speed.

If you want accurate MHz, turn on the ThrottleStop Log File option. Nothing else is as accurate. Ignore the on screen MHz that is reported while you are playing. The monitoring method used does not track the CPU MHz the way Intel recommends. Attach a log file so I can see how your computer is running today.

there must be some problem with Dell's design
There are lots of problems with Dell's design. I gave up trying to fix all of the problems that Dell likes to create.
 
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