A good read for anyone interested in 120Hz monitors for gaming

[Binge]

The following is a gaming comparison between the Samsung LN-T4669 120hz LCD and my four-year old CRT monitor.
Most of the issues here affect TV and movie viewing as well.
Samsung's 69 and 71 series are popular and mostly identical except for their screen coatings (79 is glossy).
There is a lot of confusion as to the purpose of 120hz...

Review: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=960548

It's worth the read. I found out after enough poking that my monitor actually has superior input latency in ms(time in which actions are represented from source to display e.g. keyboard to display), so I figured a number of you TPU folks will enjoy the findings.

 

[Jstn7477]

Thanks for the info. I have a 21" Sony GDM-500PS Trinitron (aperture grille) CRT from '98, and it is so much better compared to my Toshiba X205-SLi4's LCD display (which has so much ghosting). I'm happy with my 2006 Samsung SyncMaster 940BW 5ms/60Hz monitor though, so I wonder what a 120Hz monitor could do for me.

My CRT is at home though (i'm at college), and it needs to be refocused and the color seems faded.

 

[Frick]

I'm happy with my flat screen, but I mostly play slow games like RPG's and such.. I can't really stand CRT's anymore though, my eyes start to hurt even with the good ones.

 

[1Kurgan1]

I havent ever had an issue with ghosting, even on my 37" 8ms 720p tv. Seems to be a thing of the past, 120Hz is interesting though.

 

[niko084]

120Hz is interesting though.

That has been getting more and more common with LCD TV's for awhile now..

Hehe still doesn't compare to my Plasma... 480hz

 

[Binge]

Ever see a plasma computer display around 22" and 1080p? Find me an affordable model that fits the criteria and I might think about investing.

 

[dark2099]

I hate when things like this that might actually interest me are long.

Ever see a plasma computer display around 22" and 1080p? Find me an affordable model and I might think about investing.

Did see a Samsung LED monitor at BB on monday, I think it was actually fairly affordable too, if I had more $ I would have gotten it instead of this Acer 23", but I'll be happy once I have my 26" back from being donated as the house TV to go with the 23".

 

[qubit]

You've linked to a really good post there, Binge. I knew some of this stuff already, but I was wondering about the sample and hold effect on the eye; it's cleared up nicely now.

I recently bought the nvidia 3D Vision bundle, consisting of the Samsung 2233RZ 120Hz LCD monitor and the nvidia active shutter glasses.

This is the effect I notice in games and when scrolling around the desktop:

• 60Hz mode: significant blur and double image.
• 120Hz mode: exactly half the effect. Note that game playing blur isn't too bad at 120Hz 2D mode, but is definitely noticeable.
• 120Hz 3D mode with the glasses: perfect panning and smooth, blur-free motion, as good as a CRT!

The glasses flash on & off alternately at 60Hz for each eye to create the 3D view. Therefore, it stands to reason that they must be significantly reducing the sample and hold effect on the eye. Note that a 60Hz flicker is actually visible, depending on the overall lighting conditions in the room, the monitor brightness and the scene displayed. The flicker is however, much less than looking at a 60Hz CRT, which is generally aweful.

Interestingly, I have finally managed to drive my old 19" CRT at 120Hz to try out the 3D effect. I have to set the resolution to a low 800x600, but the picture is quite clear in 2D 120Hz mode, including gaming. Use 3D mode however and the picture looks a little blurred. With the LCD it's 100% sharp. Go figure!

 

[erocker]

You've linked to a really good post there, Binge. I knew some of this stuff already, but I was wondering about the sample and hold effect on the eye; it's cleared up nicely now.

I recently bought the nvidia 3D Vision bundle, consisting of the Samsung 2233RZ 120Hz LCD monitor and the nvidia active shutter glasses.

This is the effect I notice in games and when scrolling around the desktop:

• 60Hz mode: significant blur and double image.
• 120Hz mode: exactly half the effect. Note that game playing blur isn't too bad at 120Hz 2D mode, but is definitely noticeable.
• 120Hz 3D mode with the glasses: perfect panning and smooth, blur-free motion, as good as a CRT!

The glasses flash on & off alternately at 60Hz for each eye to create the 3D view. Therefore, it stands to reason that they must be significantly reducing the sample and hold effect on the eye. Note that a 60Hz flicker is actually visible, depending on the overall lighting conditions in the room, the monitor brightness and the scene displayed. The flicker is however, much less than looking at a 60Hz CRT, which is generally aweful.

Interestingly, I have finally managed to drive my old 19" CRT at 120Hz to try out the 3D effect. I have to set the resolution to a low 800x600, but the picture is quite clear in 2D 120Hz mode, including gaming. Use 3D mode however and the picture looks a little blurred. With the LCD it's 100% sharp. Go figure!

My experience as well (without the 3d glasses) using my 120hz Vizio LCD TV.

 

[AphexDreamer]

Wait I'm confused so its saying that the more Hz is better for LCD but CRT were already doing a good job at displaying images already?

Also is that Crysis in the Screenshots if not what game is it?

 

[qubit]

Wait I'm confused so its saying that the more Hz is better for LCD but CRT were already doing a good job at displaying images already?

Basically, yeah. The more Hz on an LCD, the less sample and hold blur. The more Hz on a CRT, the less flicker. Note that my 3D Vision glasses replace sample and hold blur with flicker, as it's 60Hz.

 

[AphexDreamer]

Basically, yeah. The more Hz on an LCD, the less sample and hold blur. The more Hz on a CRT, the less flicker. Note that my 3D Vision glasses replace sample and hold blur with flicker, as it's 60Hz.

Whats the limit for the Human Eye?

I'm guessing 300hz and up would be considered an almost instantanous refreshrate with perfect fluidity or would even higher be required?

 

[qubit]

My experience as well (without the 3d glasses) using my 120hz Vizio LCD TV.

You gotta try 3D Vision, man! Just beg, borrow or steal a high-end nvidia graphics card and glasses and see what it's like.

I paid a pricey £400 for my monitor and glasses, but the effect is awesome*. Together with my GTX 285 at £275 (good price back then!) and you can see that I paid a small fortune for this setup. At least I mitigated it somewhat by eBaying my 4870 512MB and getting quite a good price for it.

*It took less than 5 minutes with a shop demo on a game I don't normally play (latest CoD), couldn't control and had almost no colour to convince me to get this. You have to be an enthusiast for that sales pitch to work on you.

 

[Reefer86]

My monitor was on the near no lag list monitor. 1ms my samsung 226bw

 

[erocker]

You gotta try 3D Vision, man! Just beg, borrow or steal a high-end nvidia graphics card and glasses and see what it's like.

I paid a pricey £400 for my monitor and glasses, but the effect is awesome*. Together with my GTX 285 at £275 (good price back then!) and you can see that I paid a small fortune for this setup. At least I mitigated it somewhat by eBaying my 4870 512MB and getting quite a good price for it.

*It took less than 5 minutes with a shop demo on a game I don't normally play (latest CoD), couldn't control and had almost no colour to convince me to get this. You have to be an enthusiast for that sales pitch to work on you.

I know! I tried to work out a deal yesterday, but it didn't pan out. If things go to plan, I should have a system before christmas that will be running a Nvidia card and an ATi card so I can use all the goodies under the rainbow.

Big Bang: http://event.msi.com/mb/bigbang/

 

[qubit]

Whats the limit for the Human Eye?

I'm guessing 300hz and up wouldn't be considered an almost instantanous refreshrate with perfect fluidity or would even higher be required?

I wouldn't think that 300Hz would be necessary really, but don't quote me. In my CRT example above, I forgot to mention that I did manage to get it up to 144Hz at 800x600 and the picture looks like it's stuck on it. Animation (when no dropped frames from PC) is liquid smooth and I can't even see a hint of flicker. Even worked on 3D Vision, which really surprised me (Fraps showed 72Hz - half the true rate in 3D mode).

Don't forget however, that there's no absolutes here and the perceived flicker will depend on a wide range of factors, such as the person's eye response, lighting conditons, scene displayed etc. I wouldn't rule out some people seeing flicker at 144Hz in some instances. What I can say, is that I haven't seen a CRT yet that's as restful on the eye as a computer LCD monitor. These have zero flicker and I think that this probably wins out regardless of CRT refresh rate. Also, the fact that a CRT picture is composed of flourescing phosphors and has a little UV in it, makes it harder to look at and causes eyestrain after a long while.

 

[niko084]

I wouldn't think that 300Hz would be necessary really, but don't quote me. In my CRT example above, I forgot to mention that I did manage to get it up to 144Hz at 800x600 and the picture looks like it's stuck on it. Animation (when no dropped frames from PC) is liquid smooth and I can't even see a hint of flicker. Even worked on 3D Vision, which really surprised me (Fraps showed 72Hz - half the true rate in 3D mode).

Don't forget however, that there's no absolutes here and the perceived flicker will depend on a wide range of factors, such as the person's eye response, lighting conditions, scene displayed etc. I wouldn't rule out some people seeing flicker at 144Hz in some instances. What I can say, is that I haven't seen a CRT yet that's as restful on the eye as a computer LCD monitor. These have zero flicker and I think that this probably wins out regardless of CRT refresh rate. Also, the fact that a CRT picture is composed of fluorescing phosphors and has a little UV in it, makes it harder to look at and causes eyestrain after a long while.

Pretty much summed it up really well there... Our eye's are analog, there is a lot that comes into play, and a lot of times too much to really make a solid call.

So for now, best thing you can do is get it as fast as you can and always ask for more.

Just don't tell Nvidia and Ati that's your plan.

 

[qubit]

Pretty much summed it up really well there... Our eye's are analog, there is a lot that comes into play, and a lot of times too much to really make a solid call.

So for now, best thing you can do is get it as fast as you can and always ask for more.

Just don't tell Nvidia and Ati that's your plan.

Thanks and lol, great.

Also, Binge's post that he linked to also links to the original article that explains all this in great technical detail and is a great read for the techies among us. There's a part 2 at the end, as well (nerdgasm!)

Note that this is a Microsoft article of all things. You would have expected a TV engineering company to have published this.

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/TempRate.mspx#EEH

When I was playing UT2004 on my CRT in 2D mode at 144Hz, I did actually find that the increase in temporal resolution was quite noticeable. You could feel it as a more fluid game/smoother motion and made targeting the bots much more accurate. Incredibly, I was actually able to double the game speed and still play it and importantly, win. An absolutely incredible, frantic experience!

Note that it's critical that the PC can render the full 144fps without dropping any frames, or judder results and this precision is lost. It's easy on an old game like this and modern hardware, of course. Later games certainly do drop frames.