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Acer Predator Helios 300 PH317-53-750A Throttlestop Settings-Undervolt

dcetinol84

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Hello,

A few days ago I managed to lower my CPU temperatures quite a bit. But I still wanted to learn about some settings.

Note: I am using PH317-53-750A İ7 9750H 2.6GHZ-32GB-1TB+256SSD-17.3"-RTX 2070 8GB-W10

So I got three questions:

1- In some videos, SpeedShift-EPP setting is set to 0. Mine is 128. Should I set it to 0? Will this affect temperature?



2-Also in some videos people set those Turbo Ratio Limits around 36-38 etc. Should I do that? What does this mean? If I lower them, what will a lose what will I gain?



3- In TPL settings, what should I set Turbo Boost Long/Short Power Max and SpeedShift Max values? Are those values related to the values in question 2?



4-When I start up the laptop and run ThrottleStop, I immediately see yellow warnings in Limit Reasons window. When I clear them and play a game for 4 hours I don't see those happening again. So is something happening during startup/boot? And is this normal?


Thanks a lot
:)
 

unclewebb

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Should I set it to 0? Will this affect temperature?
Try it and find out. An EPP setting of 0 is for maximum CPU speed regardless of load. Set EPP to 255 for minimum CPU speed. Somewhere in the middle will slow the CPU down when it is lightly loaded. If you are going to slow your CPU down, I prefer a setting of 80 or 84 instead of 128. Depending on how many background tasks you have running on your computer, a fast CPU or a slow CPU when idle will not make a huge difference to your temperatures. When plugged in, might as well have a fast CPU.

Modern computers running Windows 10 can usually handle EPP appropriately. Try clearing the Speed Shift - EPP box and then open up the FIVR window so you can monitor what EPP setting your CPU is using. Cycle through various Windows power plans and move the power slider in the system tray back and forth. Does EPP change? If Windows can handle EPP OK then no need to check this box in ThrottleStop. This option was added to ThrottleStop for older computers and older versions of Windows. It may not be necessary now.

The turbo ratio limits controls your CPU speed based on how many cores are active. Less CPU speed equals less performance and less heat. People that lower theses are sacrificing some performance to get a cooler running laptop. Many games are not CPU speed dependent so a slightly slower computer might be better than a burning hot lap.

The turbo power limits control how much power your CPU can consume before it starts throttling. Lower the power limits and your CPU will consume less power. It does this by running slower. There are no free lunches. Modern laptops are a balancing act between performance and temperatures. ThrottleStop gives you a variety of ways to get your laptop running exactly how you like.

The Speed Shift Range box shows 1..45 for your CPU. That means that Speed Shift Max should be set to 45. That is the maximum multiplier your CPU can use. If you set this higher than 45, that is OK. A 9750H will ignore any request higher than 45. You cannot overclock a locked processor.

When a computer is first booting up, it is not unusual for a yellow throttling flag to get triggered before the power limits have been set up. No worries. There is nothing you can do about this. Do exactly what you have been doing. Before testing, clear all of the previous throttling information out of Limit Reasons.

On most computers, I would not check the TDP Level Control and I would not set this to 1. If this makes your laptop run great then leave it checked. On some computers, this setting will change a 45W CPU into a 35W CPU. That might be OK on battery power but is not recommended when plugged in.

For your voltages, the core and cache offsets do not have to be set equally. Back the cache off to -130 mV and keep it there. Try using a bigger number for the core. Use Cinebench R20 when testing this.


Some users reach -200 mV for the core while still being 100% stable. Go up in steps of -25 mV until you lose stability or see no further improvements in your Cinebench performance or no improvement in temperatures.

If you are under volting the Intel GPU, you need to undervolt the Intel GPU and the iGPU Unslice, probably equally. The question is, do you really need to do this? When gaming you are using the Nvidia GPU so many people do not bother with the Intel GPU. Same for the System Agent. Leave these at +0.0000 until you get your CPU voltages thoroughly sorted out. You do not want these unimportant voltages interfering with stability when you are testing your CPU.

In the Options window does it show a lock icon above the PROCHOT Offset setting? If this is not locked I would change it to 2. The Intel default value is 0. Setting this to 8 causes your CPU to start thermal throttling prematurely at 92°C instead of the Intel default of 100°C. That can reduce full load performance.

All of your questions can be answered by doing lots of testing. Do not be afraid to make adjustments. If anything ever goes wrong, it is easy enough to delete the ThrotleStop.INI configuration file and start again.
 

dcetinol84

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Hello,

@unclewebb , Thanks a lot for your answer and your feedback.

I made a few changes and some tests.

Modern computers running Windows 10 can usually handle EPP appropriately. Try clearing the Speed Shift - EPP box and then open up the FIVR window so you can monitor what EPP setting your CPU is using. Cycle through various Windows power plans and move the power slider in the system tray back and forth. Does EPP change? If Windows can handle EPP OK then no need to check this box in ThrottleStop. This option was added to ThrottleStop for older computers and older versions of Windows. It may not be necessary now.
I removed the tick from Speed Shift - EPP box. Then I changed the power slider in the system tray and in FIVR window I could see the change(Best Performance -> 0, The middle -> 84)

For your voltages, the core and cache offsets do not have to be set equally. Back the cache off to -130 mV and keep it there. Try using a bigger number for the core. Use Cinebench R20 when testing this.

Some users reach -200 mV for the core while still being 100% stable. Go up in steps of -25 mV until you lose stability or see no further improvements in your Cinebench performance or no improvement in temperatures.
I set the cache to -129,9 (somehow I couldn't set it to -130 exactly. Probably my bad). And cleared Intel GPU and system agent to 0.

My first initial Cinebench score was: 2755 (With SpeedShift at 120)

Then I made some tests:

Speedshit 84 - Through Windows Power Plan
Attempt 1:CPU Core Value 150.4 - TSBENCH with 6144M - No Flags, / Cinebench Score: 2732 Max temp 77
Attempt 2:CPU Core Value 175.8 - TSBENCH with 6144M - No Flags, Max temp 75 - Score:560,514 / Cinebench Score: 2688 Max temp 75
Attempt 3:CPU Core Value 190,4 - TSBENCH with 6144M - No Flags, Max temp 76 - Score:555,299 / Cinebench Score: 2727 Max temp 74

Speedshit 0 - Through Windows Power Plan
Attempt 4:CPU Core Value 190,4 - TSBENCH with 6144M - No Flags, Max temp 75 - Score:554,750 / Cinebench Score: 2719 Max temp 73

With my previous attempts at SpeedShift lower than 120, I had Thermal flag at some point while playing Two Point Hospital game. But after Attempt 4 I played more than an hour and I didnt get any flags and max temp was 81 (average 72). I don't know what's gonna happen with a much more demanding game such as RDR2 or AC Odyssey etc.

While playing:
TwoPointHospital.PNG


So am I in the right direction? Or my aim should be getting highest score in Cinebench?

On most computers, I would not check the TDP Level Control and I would not set this to 1. If this makes your laptop run great then leave it checked. On some computers, this setting will change a 45W CPU into a 35W CPU. That might be OK on battery power but is not recommended when plugged in.
I unchecked TDP Level Control. But the value is still 1. Should I touch it?

TDP.PNG


Thanks again for everything.
 
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dcetinol84

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Dear @unclewebb ,

I made some more tests (and a few changes)

-I changed my Turbo Ratio Limits to 45/44/43/42/41/42 (before 6 core was 36)
-I changed CPU Core Value from -190.4 to -200.2
-I changed SpeedShift from 0 to 84 (through Windows power plan in the system tray)

1603104493697.png


Then I ran a Cinebench Test:
- The score pushed up to 2976
- But I got CORE "PL1" Red Flag and Ring "EDP OTHER" Red Flag during the test. And max temp was 81, max Clock Speed was 4192Mhz (After PL1 flag, it got reuced to 3890 -average)
- You can find log file of this test.

Then I ran a Aida64 Test:
-But I got CORE "PL1" Red Flag, CORE "PL2" Yellow Flag and Ring "EDP OTHER" Red Flag during the test.
-Somehow ThrottleStop didn't generate log file for this test. I can try again if you need it.

1603105118802.png


BUT:
When I started Two Point Hospital game again, I got BSOD (WHEA error) 5 times. I dialed CPU Core to 165,4 but still got BSOD. Then I got almost stable at 160.4. But now temps got very high (spikes to 93). Should I take my ratio limits back (45/43/42/41/40/36) ?


Also what should be my Turbo Long/Short values should be according to these information? Should I keep undervolting CPU Core? Having PL1 Red flag is bad? In which direction should I head next?

Thank you :)
 

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unclewebb

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PL1 Red flag is bad?
Your log file shows that your laptop has set the long term turbo power limit internally to 56W. There is no way to get beyond this limit. The long power limit that you set in ThrottleStop is ignored when a manufacturer decides to force a power limit on your laptop.

56 Watts is not nearly enough power to run a 9750H at full load and full speed so you will always see PL1 throttling during any long full load test. This forced power limit will prevent your CPU from reaching maximum performance. The same CPU in a laptop with good cooling and unlocked power limits can score over 3000 in Cinebench R20. With a 56W power limit, you will never reach this level of performance. There is nothing you can do about this so you just have to live with this limitation. Some laptops are being forced to only 45W.

I got BSOD (WHEA error) 5 times.
Did you try doing any 1 or 2 Thread TS Bench testing? Light load tests are just as important as full load tests and can help uncover light load stability issues. Make sure the TS Bench does not report any errors during these tests.

I dialed CPU Core
The cache voltage is the biggest limiting factor. It is very unusual for a 9750H to be 100% stable when the cache is at -130 mV. Take a big step back to -100 mV. You should never have a BSOD. You have to find a point where your CPU is 100% stable. If you ever find a point where you are stable for a few days, then you can try -110 mV.

Your CPU hit a max of 84°C in your screenshot. Intel says any temperature under 100°C is a "safe operating temperature". Many laptops with a 9750H are hitting 95°C on a regular basis. If your CPU ever gets too hot, it will automatically slow down to protect itself from any damage. You do not want to see constant thermal throttling (TEMP) in the log file. If your laptop occasionally needs to thermal throttle, that is not the end of the world.
 

dcetinol84

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@unclewebb thank you for your time. One last question :) should I keep 6 core clock speed at 40 and try stabilize there? or should I use 36 (or maybe 37 38) and test voltages at that speed?
 

unclewebb

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One last question
Most of the time, you do not need to slow a CPU down. A 9750H is either going to power limit throttle or thermal throttle. It is well engineered to take care of itself.

Some laptop owners have trouble with the Nvidia GPU getting too hot while gaming. Their solution is to lower the CPU speed to reduce the amount of heat in the chassis. That makes sense. Other users have excessive fan noise issues when the CPU is allowed to run at its full rated speed. Slowing the CPU down to avoid that also makes sense. Some games are not CPU dependent so a slower CPU will barely be noticed.

An Intel mobile CPU is running within spec whether it is at 70°C, 80°C or 95°C. It will live a long life at any of those temperatures. You paid for a CPU that is capable of running at up to 4 GHz when all 6 cores are active. It is OK to run it at full speed and it is OK if you want to slow it down. Let it run at full speed when dong some light load testing.
 

dcetinol84

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@unclewebb So while gaming, as long as I dont get BSOD or shut down and have a good gaming performance (good fps, no drops etc) I shouldnt worry about PL or thermal throttling? Shouldnt I worry if CPU is at 85-90-92 degrees while gaming?
 

unclewebb

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@dcetinol84 - Now you get it. PL throttling is OK and temps over 90C are OK too.

Intel set the thermal throttling temperature to 100C over 12 years ago. If this was dangerous, they would have changed this to 90C or 80C years ago. Intel is comfortable with their CPUs running at high temperatures so you should be too.

No BSODs and smooth FPS is all that is important.
 

dcetinol84

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Dear @unclewebb , I would like to have your opinion one more time if you don't hate me asking too many questions :)

I ran 6 Cinebench scenarios with different cores and voltages and I added log files of each test.

Scenario 1: Cinebench Score - 2858 with FIVR Core 6- 40 Mhz / Core Value -150, Cache Value -100 Max Temp: 80
Scenario 2: Cinebench Score - 2867 with FIVR Core 6- 39 Mhz / Core Value -150, Cache Value -100 Max Temp: 81
Scenario 3: Cinebench Score - 2820 with FIVR Core 6- 38 Mhz / Core Value -150, Cache Value -100 Max Temp: 79
Scenario 4: Cinebench Score - 2914 with FIVR Core 6- 39 Mhz / Core Value -175, Cache Value -100 Max Temp: 78
Scenario 5: Cinebench Score - 2915 with FIVR Core 6- 39 Mhz / Core Value -200,2, Cache Value -100 Max Temp: 79
Scenario 6: Cinebench Score - 2976 with FIVR Core 6- 40 Mhz / Core Value -200,2, Cache Value -100 Max Temp: 82

After I got my high score at Scenario 6, I ran an Aida64 test for 20 minutes and I added this test's log file as well.

So,
- Would you prefer keeping Scenario 6 just because it got highest Cinebench score or others? Even though I didn't run any game yet, I didn't get any BSOD durind 20 minutes of Aida (but PL1 flag was red all the time)
- Can I play games for hours while having constant PL1 Red Flag? And is this safe (assuming everything is stable, and game performance is good)?
- Just out of curiosity. I think I didn't quite understand something. Why PL1 happens? Due to temp reaching a point? I mean during all those tests I get PL1 or PL2 but temps weren't that high.

Thanks a lot!
 

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unclewebb

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keeping Scenario 6 just because it got highest Cinebench score
#6 looks good to me. Best performance and temps are fine. Try testing with core at -220 mV. That might be better and still stable. Most people do not see any improvements after that.

Acer set the long term turbo power limit to 56W. For max performance, your CPU needs 80W or more. PL1 lighting up in red is simply the CPU informing you that it could perform better with more power. This type of throttling is not temperature related.

These CPUs are very flexible. When a lower power limit is set, they simply run a little slower to keep power consumption from exceeding 56W. Perfectly normal. You can game day and night like this. It does not hurt anything for your CPU to run slower than its rated spec. Your CPU is running as Intel designed it to run.

A guy posted a log file yesterday with his computer running Prime95 overnight. The log file showed constant PL1 power limit throttling at 70W for 7 hours. Perfectly stable. No issues at all.

Go play some games and see if your computer is stable. Run a 1 and 2 Thread TS Bench test. Make sure there are no errors reported. Throttling is OK. Errors are not.
 

dcetinol84

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Dear @unclewebb ,

I ran 1 and 2 Thread TS Bench test. No errors reported and no flags got raised.

Then I played Two Point Hospital Game for almost 1 hour. No BSOD, no drops etc (I know it's not much of a demanding game but so far that's all I have :) I attached the log file. Could I have your opinion about that? Temps looked a little bit high for me but your opinion is more important for me.

Thank you,
 

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unclewebb

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No BSOD, no drops etc
That is what is important. Smooth game play without any crashes.

Temps looked a little bit high
Your temps while gaming are mostly under 85°C. Why would that worry you? Intel CPUs automatically thermal throttle and slow down just enough if they ever get too hot. Intel used to set the thermal shut down temperature to between 125°C and 130°C to prevent any damage.


Some people seem to think that 100°C will cause catastrophic damage but that is not true at all. Intel has built in lots of wiggle room so end users do not have to give the temperature of their CPU a second thought.

Follow this wise advice.
Intel set the thermal throttling temperature to 100C over 12 years ago. If this was dangerous, they would have changed this to 90C or 80C years ago.
It sounds like your computer is running great. Your log file shows that both the CPU and GPU are running at consistent speeds. Setting the cache offset too high is the biggest problem. Another user with a 9750H also found out that -125 mV was too much and -100 mV is proving to be just right. Play some more games. Enjoy using your new and improved computer.
 

dcetinol84

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@unclewebb Thanks again for everything :) You really taught me a lot about this subject.

I also have cache at 100 as well. With 125 or 130 I had bsods. But I could try augmenting it little by little later. Just for fun.

By the way, just out of curiosity, I restarted my computer and ran a Cinebench test WITHOUT running throttlestop. The score was really bad: 2200. And clock speeds were around 2.9. I mean I shouldnt be somebody who knows about undervolting, throttlestop app etc. I should get this so called good and expensive gaming laptop and run it perfectly just as is. But this is not the case. I wonder why is that :)
 

unclewebb

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ran a Cinebench test WITHOUT running ThrottleStop. The score was really bad: 2200.
This seems to confirm that how a laptop looks sells more laptops compared to how it actually performs. Laptop specs have become meaningless numbers. The same 9750H can perform vastly different depending on what laptop it is installed in. When people go shopping, they see the CPU model number and in their mind, that means equal performance to another laptop that has the same 9750H. That is not true at all.

I have no idea why Intel and laptop manufacturers both leave so much extra performance on the table. Even something simple like a couple of BIOS options, -50 mV, -75 mV and -100 mV would give users a boost in performance without having to use a third party app. ThrottleStop has 101 options but you only need a couple of minor tweaks to make a big difference.

Maybe if you set the cache to -110 mV you will finally get a magic 3000 point Cinebench R20 score.

NotebookCheck does a lot of laptop reviews.

For laptops with a 9750H, only 4 out of 54 scored more than 3000 points in CinebenchR20. There are 3 Razer Blade computers that scored under 2200 points. The results speak for themselves.
 

dcetinol84

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Dear @unclewebb I followed your advice and pushed CPU Cache up to -110 and I got a so far stable 3038 points on Cinebench.

Cinebench.PNG


Here's my ThrottleStop voltages:

FIVR.PNG


This is what it looks like on HWInfo:

HWInfo.PNG


I played an hour of the same game and no PL1 or PL2 flags, no BSODS so far. I attached the log file as well. (Gaming.txt)
I also did some 1,2 and 12 Threads TS Bench test. No Errors. You can find the log attached (Cinebench-1-2-12-Thread.txt) It also includes Cinebench testing at the beginning.

I must say I did exit a few applications such as Epic Launcher, Steam, XBox App etc before Cinebench test.
 

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unclewebb

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This is what it looks like on HWInfo:
Is that screenshot from HWiNFO or HWMonitor? HWMonitor does not report the voltages correctly so it looks like you are using HWMonitor. The monitoring table in the ThrottleStop FIVR window samples your CPU every second. It reports your CPU voltages correctly. This data should be in agreement with HWiNFO.

Have you tried a Cinebench run with the core set to -220 mV yet? Most of these CPUs max out somewhere around there.

I can almost guarantee you that the only 9750H laptops running better than your laptop have unlocked power limits. You are pretty much at the wall with the 56W turbo power limit being enforced on your computer. Great to see that you made it over 3000 points. :toast:
 

dcetinol84

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@unclewebb ,

Is that screenshot from HWiNFO or HWMonitor?
Yeah it is HWMonitor, sorry my bad :)

Have you tried a Cinebench run with the core set to -220 mV yet? Most of these CPUs max out somewhere around there.
I will try with 220 and let you know later.

Thanks again for caring about our problems and taking time to answer.
 
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System Name Lenovo Legion Y540
Processor Core i7 9750H
Memory 32GB 2666MHz DDR4 Kingston HyperX Impact (Dual Channel)
Video Card(s) GTX 1660 Ti
Storage 1 TB Micron NVMe SSD, 2 TB Western Digital HDD
Is that screenshot from HWiNFO or HWMonitor? HWMonitor does not report the voltages correctly so it looks like you are using HWMonitor. The monitoring table in the ThrottleStop FIVR window samples your CPU every second. It reports your CPU voltages correctly. This data should be in agreement with HWiNFO.

Have you tried a Cinebench run with the core set to -220 mV yet? Most of these CPUs max out somewhere around there.

I can almost guarantee you that the only 9750H laptops running better than your laptop have unlocked power limits. You are pretty much at the wall with the 56W turbo power limit being enforced on your computer. Great to see that you made it over 3000 points. :toast:
@unclewebb I'm amazed to see he managed to get over 3k on CB20 with a 56W limit!! That is bonkers brilliant!! :clap::clap::clap: @dcetinol84 you're a lucky bloke. Your laptop must have some fantastic cooling. :toast:
 
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