• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

AMD "Zen 3" Microarchitecture Could Post Significant Performance Gains

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
39,292 (8.43/day)
Location
Hyderabad, India
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 2700X
Motherboard ASUS ROG Strix B450-E Gaming
Cooling AMD Wraith Prism
Memory 2x 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3000
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER GameRock
Storage Western Digital Black NVMe 512GB
Display(s) BenQ 1440p 60 Hz 27-inch
Case Corsair Carbide 100R
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D PCIe
Power Supply Cooler Master MWE Gold 650W
Mouse ASUS ROG Strix Impact
Keyboard Microsoft Sidewinder X4
Software Windows 10 Pro
At its recent SC19 talk, AMD touched upon its upcoming "Zen 3" CPU microarchitecture. Designed for the 7 nm EUV silicon fabrication process that significantly increases transistor densities, "Zen 3" could post performance gains "right in line with what you would expect from an entirely new architecture," states AMD, referring to the roughly 15 percent IPC gains that were expected of "Zen 2" prior to its launch. "Zen 2" IPC ended up slightly over 15 percent higher than that of the original "Zen" microarchitecture. AMD's SC19 comments need not be a guidance on the IPC itself, but rather performance gains of end-products versus their predecessors.

The 7 nm EUV process, with its 20 percent transistor-density increase could give AMD designers significant headroom to increase clock speeds to meet the company's generational performance improvement targets. Another direction in which "Zen 3" could go is utilizing the additional transistor density to bolster its core components to support demanding instruction-sets such as AVX-512. The company's microarchitecture is also missing something analogous to Intel's DLBoost, an instruction-set that leverages fixed-function hardware to accelerate AI-DNN building and training. Even VIA announced an x86 microarchitecture with AI hardware and AVX-512 support. In either case, the design of "Zen 3" is complete. We'll have to wait until 2020 to find out how fast "Zen 3" is, and the route taken to get there.



View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
5,398 (1.67/day)
Processor Intel Core i7 3770k @ 4.3GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z77-V LK
Memory 16GB(2x8) DDR3@2133MHz 1.5v Patriot
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce GTX 1080 GAMING X 8G
Storage 59.63GB Samsung SSD 830 + 465.76 GB Samsung SSD 840 EVO + 2TB Hitachi + 300GB Velociraptor HDD
Display(s) Acer Predator X34 3440x1440@100Hz G-Sync
Case NZXT PHANTOM410-BK
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Titanium PCIe
Power Supply Corsair 850W
Mouse Anker
Software Win 10 Pro - 64bit
Benchmark Scores 30FPS in NFS:Rivals
I hope they will trash Intel and their 14+++++++++ nm CPUs into oblivion.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
13,135 (2.79/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Intel i9 9900k
Motherboard ASRock Z390 Taichi
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory G.SKILL TridentZ Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 @ 14-14-14-34-2T
Video Card(s) AMD RX 5700 XT (XFX THICC Ultra III)
Storage Mushkin Pilot-E 2TB NVMe SSD w/ EKWB M.2 Heatsink
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) VGA HDMI->Panasonic SC-HTB20/Schiit Modi MB/Asgard 2 DAC/Amp to AKG Pro K7712 Headphones
Power Supply SeaSonic Prime 750W 80Plus Titanium
Mouse ROCCAT Kone EMP
Keyboard WASD CODE 104-Key w/ Cherry MX Green Keyswitches, Doubleshot Vortex PBT White Transluscent Keycaps
Software Windows 10 Enterprise (yes, it's legit.)
I hope they will trash Intel and their 14+++++++++ nm CPUs into oblivion.
I hope we remain in healthy competition, and no one "trashes" anyone.

It breeds better consumer pricing, for starters.

No denying AMD is very well poised on the CPU front now though...
 
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Messages
296 (0.86/day)
System Name Neon Master
Processor AMD Ryzen 3900x
Motherboard x570 Aorus Master F20
Cooling H115i RGB Platinum 280mm/Case Fans NF-A14 x4
Memory 2x16GB 3733 C16 G.Skill Neo
Video Card(s) RTX 2070 Super Strix
Storage MP600 2tb / 860 Evo 1tb / WD4005FZBX
Display(s) LG 27GL850-b
Case Phanteks Evolv X
Audio Device(s) BeyerDynamic DT 770 Pro (250 Ohms)
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 1000w
Mouse Scimitar Pro rgb
Keyboard K95 Platinum rgb
Software W10
There were some direct quotes a while ago, something about 4-7%, about half of that being the fab change and the other ~half design improvements.
I'd be surprised if it's anything more than that. Maybe a small 100ish clock boost on top of that 1:1 4%-7%
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
3,761 (2.39/day)
Processor Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard MSI B450 Tomahawk ATX
Cooling Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition
Memory PNY Anarchy-X XLR8 Red DDR4-3200 16GB @3466 MHz
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 2060 GAMING Z 6G
Storage Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 500 GB, SanDisk Ultra II 480 GB
Display(s) Samsung SyncMaster C27H711 OC refresh rate 110Hz
Case Phantek Eclipse P400S (PH-EC416PS)
Audio Device(s) EVGA NU Audio
Power Supply EVGA 850 BQ
Mouse SteelSeries Rival 310
Keyboard Logitech G G413 Silver
Software Windows 10 Professional 64-bit v2004
If you want to know where Intel is headed just have a look see at mobile Ice Lake's performance. The Sunny Cove Arc definitely pushes the IPC up even with the clock speed deficiency.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
2,564 (0.61/day)
System Name Cyberline
Processor Intel Core i7 2600k
Motherboard Asus P8P67 LE Rev 3.0
Cooling Tuniq Tower 120
Memory Corsair (4x2) 8gb 1600mhz
Video Card(s) AMD RX480
Storage Samsung 750 Evo 250gb SSD + WD 1tb x 2 + WD 2tb
Display(s) Philips 32inch LPF5605H (television)
Case antec 600
Audio Device(s) Focusrite 2i4 (USB)
Power Supply Seasonic 620watt 80+ Platinum
Mouse Elecom EX-G
Keyboard Rapoo V700
Software Windows 10 Pro 64bit
I hope we remain in healthy competition, and no one "trashes" anyone.

It breeds better consumer pricing, for starters.

No denying AMD is very well poised on the CPU front now though...
well yeah ultimately we all want that, but Intel is a bit too big for its bridges, a good kick in the nutz is what they need.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
13,135 (2.79/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Intel i9 9900k
Motherboard ASRock Z390 Taichi
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory G.SKILL TridentZ Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 @ 14-14-14-34-2T
Video Card(s) AMD RX 5700 XT (XFX THICC Ultra III)
Storage Mushkin Pilot-E 2TB NVMe SSD w/ EKWB M.2 Heatsink
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) VGA HDMI->Panasonic SC-HTB20/Schiit Modi MB/Asgard 2 DAC/Amp to AKG Pro K7712 Headphones
Power Supply SeaSonic Prime 750W 80Plus Titanium
Mouse ROCCAT Kone EMP
Keyboard WASD CODE 104-Key w/ Cherry MX Green Keyswitches, Doubleshot Vortex PBT White Transluscent Keycaps
Software Windows 10 Enterprise (yes, it's legit.)
well yeah ultimately we all want that, but Intel is a bit too big for its bridges, a good kick in the nutz is what they need.
They been having that for the past bit, honestly.
 
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
53 (0.05/day)
If you want to know where Intel is headed just have a look see at mobile Ice Lake's performance. The Sunny Cove Arc definitely pushes the IPC up even with the clock speed deficiency.
Did you even read the conclusion on your own link?
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
3,761 (2.39/day)
Processor Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard MSI B450 Tomahawk ATX
Cooling Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition
Memory PNY Anarchy-X XLR8 Red DDR4-3200 16GB @3466 MHz
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 2060 GAMING Z 6G
Storage Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 500 GB, SanDisk Ultra II 480 GB
Display(s) Samsung SyncMaster C27H711 OC refresh rate 110Hz
Case Phantek Eclipse P400S (PH-EC416PS)
Audio Device(s) EVGA NU Audio
Power Supply EVGA 850 BQ
Mouse SteelSeries Rival 310
Keyboard Logitech G G413 Silver
Software Windows 10 Professional 64-bit v2004
Did you even read the conclusion on your own link?
Yes, the Razer Blade Stealth doesn't allow for the best showing of the i7-1065G7 as someone in the comments pointed out.
Razer Blade is not the best Ice Lake implementation available.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2016
Messages
3,595 (2.43/day)
Yes, the Razer Blade Stealth doesn't allow for the best showing of the i7-1065G7 as someone in the comments pointed out.
Extrapolating mobile SoC's results on the whole architecture doesn't make sense in general.
Chips in laptops are always limited. There's a huge performance variance between different laptops.
You can find the best one, but you have no guarantee that's all the SoC has to give.

One would have to remove all limits from OEM configuration, disassemble the laptop and run it with a desktop cooler.
I'm not even sure if this is possible. :)
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
85 (0.32/day)
Here we go with the relentless hype machine. Process benefits and uarch I'd be surprised if it cracks 10% over Zen 2. Maybe AMD can finally equal the ST performance of Coffee-Lake.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2016
Messages
3,595 (2.43/day)
Here we go with the relentless hype machine. Process benefits and uarch I'd be surprised if it cracks 10% over Zen 2. Maybe AMD can finally equal the ST performance of Coffee-Lake.
And more importantly... what's the point?

OK, maybe they've found a better idea for the architecture and it'll give them extra 5% in benchmarks compared to just optimizing Zen2.
And what about real life? Because after 2.5 years software finally starts to fly on Zen.
Are we looking at another shitstorm of "no one wants to optimize for AMD"? :D

In other words: I don't believe in the new arch. Maybe it'll be tweaked. Maybe they'll make the I/O die on older 7nm (as Zen dies move to EUV).
A lot of things can be improved in Zen2.

And instead of launching a new architecture every 3 years, they could focus a bit on the software. Clearly, they aren't as poor as some people here suggest.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
2,093 (0.94/day)
I do hope AMD will be stepping on the gas rather than slowing down. We need a continued push for higher single core performance (both IPC and SIMD performance).
There is still no word on AVX-512 from AMD, unfortunately.

There were some direct quotes a while ago, something about 4-7%, about half of that being the fab change and the other ~half design improvements.
I'd be surprised if it's anything more than that. Maybe a small 100ish clock boost on top of that 1:1 4%-7%
It's always hard to know what people mean by such figures. Node improvements doesn't yield IPC improvements.
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
3,368 (1.27/day)
I hope we remain in healthy competition, and no one "trashes" anyone.

It breeds better consumer pricing, for starters.

No denying AMD is very well poised on the CPU front now though...
I hope we get a return of the "core" wars & see each core retailing for as little as $10 :pimp:
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
3,761 (2.39/day)
Processor Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard MSI B450 Tomahawk ATX
Cooling Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition
Memory PNY Anarchy-X XLR8 Red DDR4-3200 16GB @3466 MHz
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 2060 GAMING Z 6G
Storage Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 500 GB, SanDisk Ultra II 480 GB
Display(s) Samsung SyncMaster C27H711 OC refresh rate 110Hz
Case Phantek Eclipse P400S (PH-EC416PS)
Audio Device(s) EVGA NU Audio
Power Supply EVGA 850 BQ
Mouse SteelSeries Rival 310
Keyboard Logitech G G413 Silver
Software Windows 10 Professional 64-bit v2004
Maybe AMD can finally equal the ST performance of Coffee-Lake.
AMD has equal or better than Coffeelake IPC.

untitled-18.png


 
Joined
Sep 10, 2018
Messages
1,431 (2.12/day)
Location
California
System Name His & Hers
Processor i9 9900k @5ghz/ R9 3900X Stock
Motherboard Asus Maximus XI Code/ROG Crosshair VIII Hero
Cooling Corsair h150i Pro 6x Corsair QL120 + 4x Corsair LL120/ Corsair h115i Platinum
Memory 32 GB 4x8GB 3600mhz Corsair RGB Pro/ 32 GB 3200 CL14 @3800 CL16
Video Card(s) Asus ROG Strix 2080 ti/ Titan XP
Storage lots of SSD.
Display(s) Asus ROG PG278QR / MSI 27 inch VA panel.
Case 011 Dynamic XL/ Phanteks Evolv X
Audio Device(s) Arctis Pro + gaming Dac/ Corsair sp 2500/ Logitech Z 625
Power Supply Seasonic Ultra Prime Titanium 850w x2
Mouse Logitech G903 Lightspeed/ Logitech G Pro Hero.
Keyboard Corsair K95 RGB Platinum/ Logitech G Pro
AMD has equal or better than Coffeelake IPC.

View attachment 137573


Not 100% sure why but people get confused with IPC and clock speed advantage not knowing for some reason that clocks need to be matched to measure IPC from 2 different architectures.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
2,093 (0.94/day)
AMD has equal or better than Coffeelake IPC.
Cinebench is a benchmark of the rendering engine of Cinema 4D, not a measure of IPC. Cinebench is not a representative workload, and should never be extrapolated into "general performance".
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
2,564 (0.61/day)
System Name Cyberline
Processor Intel Core i7 2600k
Motherboard Asus P8P67 LE Rev 3.0
Cooling Tuniq Tower 120
Memory Corsair (4x2) 8gb 1600mhz
Video Card(s) AMD RX480
Storage Samsung 750 Evo 250gb SSD + WD 1tb x 2 + WD 2tb
Display(s) Philips 32inch LPF5605H (television)
Case antec 600
Audio Device(s) Focusrite 2i4 (USB)
Power Supply Seasonic 620watt 80+ Platinum
Mouse Elecom EX-G
Keyboard Rapoo V700
Software Windows 10 Pro 64bit
Not 100% sure why but people get confused with IPC and clock speed advantage not knowing for some reason that clocks need to be matched to measure IPC from 2 different architectures.
I do, people are stupid.

Cinebench is a benchmark of the rendering engine of Cinema 4D, not a measure of IPC. Cinebench is not a representative workload, and should never be extrapolated to "general performance".
Not saying you are wrong, but could you explain?
They simply test 1 core of each processor, running at the same speed, and see how quickly it gets done.
How does that not indicate IPC ermm levels? vs eachother?
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
2,093 (0.94/day)
Not saying you are wrong, but could you explain?
They simply test 1 core of each processor, running at the same speed, and see how quickly it gets done.
How does that not indicate IPC ermm levels? vs eachother?
"IPC" is a measure of "workload agnostic" performance per thread per clock. In its literal form it means instructions per clock, but given the code is the same, this should translate directly to performance per clock*.

"IPC" is an approximation of the processor's "general performance", which is why you can't just cherry-pick one benchmark and say it demonstrates IPC. You either need a wide selection of benchmarks, or a benchmark which incorporates this into a single one (hopefully without becoming too synthetic).

*) And if we're pedantic here, IPC isn't actually linear either, due to memory latency being a constant. But it's not a problem as long as you compare all CPUs at the same clock.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2016
Messages
3,595 (2.43/day)
AMD has equal or better than Coffeelake IPC.
He said "ST performance", not IPC.
I do hope AMD will be stepping on the gas rather than slowing down. We need a continued push for higher single core performance (both IPC and SIMD performance).
There is still no word on AVX-512 from AMD, unfortunately.
But what's the point if it's not utilized?
Of course AMD could make an even more extreme design that no one knows how to use. What's the point?

Intel's products are way more stable, so - even putting aside market share - there's way more value in optimizing software for their APIs.
Keep that in mind next time you'll see a topic about unfair Matlab or something like that. :p
They simply test 1 core of each processor, running at the same speed, and see how quickly it gets done.
How does that not indicate IPC ermm levels? vs eachother?
Cinebench is not a general testing suite (like e.g. SPEC CPU2006).
It's a benchmark for a particular software: Cinema4D rendering engine.

If you run a similar test in different software, you'd get different results.
 

phill

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
7,411 (2.23/day)
Location
Somerset, UK
System Name Not so complete or overkill
Processor Ryzen 3900X
Motherboard Asus Crosshair 8 Hero (Non Wi-Fi)
Cooling Air :(
Memory Patriot 3200MHz 64GB
Video Card(s) 2 x EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC Black Edition
Storage 1 250GB Crucial SSD for OS/Programs, 2 500GB Crucial SSD for Steam and Epic stores
Display(s) 3 x 23" LG IPS panels (can't remember model!!)
Case 10mm thick MDF on plastic risers.. It's kinda a case??
Audio Device(s) Onboard
Power Supply EVGA T2 1200w
Mouse Corsair thingy
Keyboard Logitec K120......
Software Windows 10
Benchmark Scores I've actually never benched it!! Too busy with WCG and FAH and not gaming!! :( :(
Just waiting for the reviews :D
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
1,618 (0.65/day)
Location
Athens, Greece
System Name 3 systems: Gaming / Internet / HTPC
Processor Intel i5 4460 / Thuban 1455T(Unlocked 645) @ 3.7GHz @ 1.30V / A6 7400K
Motherboard ASRock Z97 Extreme6 / Gigabyte GA-990XA-UD3 / ASUS FM2+
Cooling Modified AM2 Asetek MicroChill / Noctua U12S / CoolerMaster TX2
Memory 16GB Kingston KHX1866C10D3 / 16GB Adata 2133MHz / 8GB Kingston 2400MHz (DDR3)
Video Card(s) XFX RX 580 8GB + GT 620 (PhysX)/ GT 710 / A6 7400K iGPU
Storage Intel NVMe 500GB, Samsung NVMe 250GB + more / Kingston 240GB + more / Samsung SSD 120GB
Display(s) Samsung LE32D550 32'' TV(2 systems connected) / LG 42''
Case Sharkoon Rebel 12 / Sharkoon Rebel 9 / Xigmatek Midguard
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply Chieftec 850W / Sharkoon 650W / Chieftec 560W
Mouse CoolerMaster / Rapoo / Logitech
Keyboard CoolerMaster / Microsoft / Logitech
Software Windows
AMD's SC19 comments need not be a guidance on the IPC itself, but rather performance gains of end-products versus their predecessors.
Why is that? I think it is specifically said that we are talking about IPC, not for example IPC+frequency+faster memory+whatever else=+15%.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
2,093 (0.94/day)
But what's the point if it's not utilized?
Of course AMD could make an even more extreme design that no one knows how to use. What's the point?
Do you mean what's the point of AVX-512?
It has obviously twice the vector width of AVX2, but have also more types of operations and is more flexible.
But new instructions have always the problem of adoption. If you don't ship hardware support, software is not coming along. Right now, support in the client space is pretty much non-existent, but custom softare uses it of course. But once AVX-512 is widespread enough, we'll start to see more applications utilize it, and at that point hardware lacking support will have a major disadvantage. But still, hardware have to come first to lead the way.

Intel's products are way more stable, so - even putting aside market share - there's way more value in optimizing software for their APIs.
What "APIs"?
Desktop software is written and compiled towards the x86 ISA, which is microarchitecture agnostic. The only level of "optimization" in that regard is which optional extensions you choose to use, most of which are supported by both. There is no way to "optimize for Intel" etc., not the way most people think it is.
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,242 (1.22/day)
System Name My all round PC
Processor i5 750
Motherboard ASUS P7P55D-E
Memory 8GB
Video Card(s) Sapphire 380 OC... sold, waiting for Navi
Storage 256GB Samsung SSD + 2Tb + 1.5Tb
Display(s) Samsung 40" A650 TV
Case Thermaltake Chaser mk-I Tower
Power Supply 425w Enermax MODU 82+
Software Windows 10
Hyping AMD stock someone is.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
966 (1.89/day)
System Name PowerEdge R730 DRS Cluster
Processor 4x Xeon E5-2698 v3
Cooling Many heckin screamy bois
Memory 480GB ECC DDR4-2133
Video Card(s) Matrox G200eR2
Storage SD Card. Yep, really no other local storage.
Display(s) It's probably a couple of boring Dell Ultrasharps and a sacrificial laptop.
Case 39U 6-rack server room with HEVC and 44KVA UPS
Mouse Maybe
Keyboard Yes!
Software ESXi 6.5 U3
Benchmark Scores I once clocked a Celeron-300A to 564MHz on an Abit BE6 and it scored over 9000.
And more importantly... what's the point?

OK, maybe they've found a better idea for the architecture and it'll give them extra 5% in benchmarks compared to just optimizing Zen2.
And what about real life? Because after 2.5 years software finally starts to fly on Zen.
Are we looking at another shitstorm of "no one wants to optimize for AMD"? :D

In other words: I don't believe in the new arch. Maybe it'll be tweaked. Maybe they'll make the I/O die on older 7nm (as Zen dies move to EUV).
A lot of things can be improved in Zen2.

And instead of launching a new architecture every 3 years, they could focus a bit on the software. Clearly, they aren't as poor as some people here suggest.
I kinda agree with you there. The 1.0.0.3 AAB AGESA updates were a fix to a non-issue as far as I'm concerned because they addressed a 50MHz defecit in single-threaded performance at the cost of voltage bumps. It mattered only to people who were synthetic benchmarking because in the real world you never have a multi-core CPU using just one core. The OS has thousands of threads running at all times and the only way to actually achieve "single-threaded performance peaks" is by using synthetic benchmarking software to hog all the cores for itself and then run nothing on the idle ones for the synthetic single-threaded test.

Ryzen is now the best processor because in the real world you get more threads and more cache than Intel, which means that outside of niche use-cases like 720p240Hz gaming and synthetic single-threaded benchmarking, stuff just gets done faster on Ryzen. If Intel had more of an advantage than they do, it wouldn't be so clear cut, but Zen2's IPC and clocks mean that in many cases the fact that each core is still slightly weaker doesn't matter, because AMD will give you TWICE as many threads at Intel at many of the popular price points. That's a 100% absolute advantage when Intel's IPC*Clockspeed advantages are 10% at best, even ignoring the massive power draw issues Intel 14nm++++++++++ has.
 
Top