APC UPS triggered system shutdown when it shouldn't have.

[Bill_Bright]

Is hybrid sleep distinct from the sleep option that is found when clicking the power button in the start menu?

And it saves a system image but does not fully power down afterwards?

What ever sleep option is set in your power options is what is triggered when you select Sleep from the start menu.

Hibernation and Hybrid both save an image of the environment. Both are used to boot (or wake) faster than a full shutdown. Hybrid keeps the data in RAM alive (but in a very low voltage state to conserve energy) for an even faster wake time. The Hybrid mode lets the system use the hiberfil.sys file in the event the computer loses power during sleep. Hibernate always uses the hiberfil.sys file.

Most don't use hibernation because they don't want a huge hiper file on their ssd's not because of memory oc bugger man

"Most" is not accurate. But yes, the hiberfil.sys file can be huge and when the first SSDs came out, they were small - often as little as 32GB. So it was a problem. Many who were concerned put the hiberfil.sys on their larger HDDs. Problem solved - unless low on free space there too.

It may have been mentioned, get the software to control your UPS and set the sensetivity to Low or if it asks for voltage set the lowest possible so it only kicks in if the voltage goes below what you set.

Sorry but this is not good advice and those settings should be set on a case by case basis. I recommend leaving them at the default settings, unless your specific situation warrants changing them. Setting Sensitivity to "Low" or voltages at the lowest possible setting as you suggest is NOT good! That means the 120/240VAC line-in mains voltage could drop well below 90/180VAC and the UPS would not kick over to battery. The result? The computer crashes.

Also note that Low sensitivity increases the UPS reaction time. If your PSU has a short "Hold-up" time (as sadly, many do) the PSU may fail to maintain power before the UPS has kicked over to battery backup. The result? Again the computer crashes. (Reference).

You haven't really shown me anything that it is the hardware industry's reasoning.

Well then don't use it! I really don't care because as you said, it is a personal preference issue.

It is not my business to justify why the dozens or so companies who collaborated with Intel to create the ATX Form Factor standard set the various stand-by states to what they did. I merely explained how it works. The fact remains, hibernation was created for laptops (so users could simply close the lid, come back hours later, open the lid and resume where they left off - WITHOUT the battery draining out during those hours of downtime. Hybrid mode was created for PCs because ATX PSUs keep supplying power in stand-by mode.

My personal preference is actually to never turn a desktop off. Modern desktop use so little power when idle, it doesn't make much sense to put them to sleep or hibernate.

Sorry but you just seemed to contradict yourself since in your last post #14, your main issue was all about hibernate saving power. Now you say you don't care about the power.

And I have to wonder if you really mean what you just said? I am not accusing you of anything - just an observation over what it really means for a computer that does NOT go to sleep. I would urge you to connect your desktop to a kill-a-watt meter or UPS with an LCD readout. For sure you will notice a significant difference between idle and sleep. This computer, my i5, DDR4, SSDs computer draws 45W when idle. As mentioned above, only 3W when sleep. That is significant.

So if you do check, you will see you are incorrect to say it does not make sense to let the computer go to sleep. If you have changed the defaults so your computer never goes to sleep, that means your power supply is constantly outputting all 3 primary voltages (+12V, +5, and +3.3VDC). If still using hard drives, their motors will still be spinning as will your cooling fans (at least those not controlled to shutdown when not needed for cooling). Your PSU fan, depending on the PSU, may still be spinning too. Your RAM will be using full power all the time. Plus your graphics solution will remain active and so will keep your monitors awake too.

So is that really what you mean? Are your fans and drive motors spinning 24/7? Are your monitors awake 24/7? Or do you just walk away and let them all go to sleep?

But, if someone is putting their computers to sleep or hibernating them, they are doing it for the power savings.

While that may be true for most, what's wrong with that? Do you leave your TV on when done watching it? Or do you press the power button on your remove - sending the TV into standby/sleep mode? Do you turn out the lights when you leave a room?

According to my UPS, that would sixteen hours of usage at 150 Watts.

Don't forget to compensate for other devices that may be connected to your UPS. For example, your monitor(s). I have two 24" monitors on my UPS and each uses about 25W when lit up. Also, my modem and my wifi router are powered through my UPS and they do not go to sleep.

 

[80251]

You haven't really shown me anything that it is the hardware industry's reasoning. You've gone on about how it is your personal preference because it wakes up faster, but nothing to back up that one is actually better than the other. Personal preference doesn't make one better than the other for Desktop vs. Laptop. It's all personal preference, as you pointed out.

My personal preference is actually to never turn a desktop off. Modern desktop use so little power when idle, it doesn't make much sense to put them to sleep or hibernate. And if I'm not using my laptop, it's shut down. Truly shut down, not that hibernate BS that Microsoft tries to pull. But that's my preference, I'm not going to state it like it some kind of industry standard.

But, if someone is putting their computers to sleep or hibernating them, they are doing it for the power savings. And if you are doing it for the power savings, using hibernate for maximum power savings is the way to go. The wakeup time for both on a computer with an SSD is nearly identical(literally a 2 second difference). It takes my computer 6 whole seconds to wake up from hibernation. Seriously, we aren't living in the stone age here. I get that hibernation used to take quite a while to wake from, but those days are just gone.

If you really want to make broad general statements about sleep vs. hibernation being better in specific situations, I'd say use sleep if you still have your OS on a HDD, use hibernation if your OS is on an SSD. Also, use sleep if your OS is installed in legacy mode and hibernate if your OS is install in UEFI mode.

And Microsoft's reasoning seems to be to use hibernate. Hence, their default shutdown now being hibernate and not actually shutdown.

Does stopping and starting HDD's put more stress on them than just leaving them running continuously?

As an aside my friend has an EIDE HDD based DVR surveillance system for his business. It's been running continuously, 24-7 for a decade sans any power outages. I'm amazed the HDD is still working after all that time of continuous usage (although it is a model that is designed for DVR systems).

 

[newtekie1]

Plus your graphics solution will remain active and so will keep your monitors awake too.

You know what, I wrote up a long reply pointing out all the things wrong with your post, but then I read this. If you don't know the very basic knowledge that you can have your monitor go to sleep without the computer needing to go to sleep, you really shouldn't be in a discussion about power saving features and how they work. Seriously, it's obvious you have no clue what you are talking about, so it's time to move on.

Does stopping and starting HDD's put more stress on them than just leaving them running continuously?

As an aside my friend has an EIDE HDD based DVR surveillance system for his business. It's been running continuously, 24-7 for a decade sans any power outages. I'm amazed the HDD is still working after all that time of continuous usage (although it is a model that is designed for DVR systems).

That's a debate for the ages right there. There really isn't a clear answer. Some will say that starting and stopping them causes more wear, others will say running them 24/7 causes more wear. And I guess part of that answer depends on the actual use of the HDD.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Does stopping and starting HDD's put more stress on them than just leaving them running continuously?

There are too many variables to make an absolute conclusion, one way or another. Some drives, for example, are "Enterprise" class drives, designed to go in data centers and busy file servers - that is, they are designed to run 24/7. Others are only marketed as such. And then there are entry level models.

It could be said that a 10K RPM drive will wear out faster than a 5400RPM drive simply due to the rotation speeds. I say it depends on the design, construction, precision of the motor bearings, the lubrication used, and the operating environment.

Another school of thought is running electronics 24/7 (instead of turning on and off all the time) helps keep that electronics at a more consistent temperature. Since mater tents to expand and contract as it warms and cools, a more consistent temperature results in less stress ("fatigue").

I believe there is some truth to that buy I also know electronics are designed to operate in a pretty wide range of temperatures.

Then of course, hard drives are electromechanical devices. They contain both electronics and mechanical components - both with their own wear and tear characteristics.

You know what, I wrote up a long reply pointing out all the things wrong with your post, but then I read this. If you don't know the very basic knowledge that you can have your monitor go to sleep without the computer needing to go to sleep, you really shouldn't be in a discussion about power saving features and how they work. Seriously, it's obvious you have no clue what you are talking about, so it's time to move on.

LOL

Actually, I very much understand how the various sleep modes differ from each other and how shut down differs from powering off completely - even with monitors. It seems you do not - as evidenced by your contradictions - and your comment suggesting it makes no sense to use a sleep mode because a computer that is never turned off uses so little power when idle - suggesting there is negligible difference in power consumption between a computer up and running at idle, and a computer in sleep mode.

Anyone with kill-a-watt meter or UPS with a decent status display knows that is not true.

But you are right about one thing - it is time to move on.

 

[trparky]

a computer that is never turned off uses so little power when idle

His comment about that is wrong. My computer, even with the monitors asleep, will use 75 Watts of power (according to the UPS, it has an LCD display on the front of it). How much more idle can you get when your monitor is sleeping? 75 Watts of power may not seem like much but if you're out of the house for eight hours a day for work and then sleep for 7 to 8 hours a day, that's a hell of a lot of power being wasted for no damn good reason other than running up your electric bill and pumping even more CO2 gas into our atmosphere.

My computer and the two monitors attached to it fluctuate between 120 and 138 Watts of power usage when normally used (web browsing, email, Microsoft Word, etc.). Obviously, when gaming, the power usage is much higher since the GPU needs more power.

I have separate UPS to power networking equipment like the main Ethernet switch, the VoIP adapter, and of course, the AT&T-provided and required BGW-320 router since I have fiber Internet.

 

[Bill_Bright]

His comment about that is wrong.

To clarify, that is his claim, not mine.

My computer, even with the monitors asleep, will use 75 Watts of power

And is that just the computer? Not network devices too? And how much when the computer is in sleep mode? I bet considerably less.

75 Watts of power may not seem like much

It is a lot. That would be like leaving a 75W incandescent lightbulb burning all the time. If considered not much, there never would have been the HUGE global push to replace all our incandescent bulbs with LED lights.

 

[trparky]

And is that just the computer? Not network devices too? And how much when the computer is in sleep mode? I bet considerably less.

The networking equipment is on a separate UPS that I don't actively monitor. As for when the computer is sleeping, I've never taken any power usage measurements.

 

[Bill_Bright]

As for when the computer is sleeping, I've never taken any power usage measurements.

Well, that's the area of contention here; idle vs sleep power consumption. I sure would expect your system to consume considerably less than 75W when in sleep mode.

 

[trparky]

Well, that's the area of contention here; idle vs sleep power consumption. I sure would expect your system to consume considerably less than 75W when in sleep mode.

And I told my computer to go to sleep and according to my UPS, the answer to that question is... ZERO WATTS!!!

Is it truly zero watts? Probably not. However, it's probably a measurement that's so low that it might as well be zero watts.

So, there we have it folks, the answer to the question "Is it better to let your computer sit idle or put it to sleep?" is in fact, "put it to sleep!"

 

[1freedude]

And I told my computer to go to sleep and according to my UPS, the answer to that question is... ZERO WATTS!!!

Is it truly zero watts? Probably not. However, it's probably a measurement that's so low that it might as well be zero watts.

So, there we have it folks, the answer to the question "Is it better to let your computer sit idle or put it to sleep?" is in fact, "put it to sleep!"

Now yank the cord and time how long the UPS lasts.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Now yank the cord and time how long the UPS lasts.

My wireless router and my cable modem are also connected to my APC 1500VA (865W) UPS and it will hold my network "alive" for at least 2 1/2 hours if this computer and the two monitors are in sleep mode when the power fails. That at least allows me to get on my laptop and stay connected - for awhile. Because my home theater and TV are also on an UPS, I can still watch TV until that UPS dies. But sadly, TV cable boxes are power guzzlers, and my OLED TV is not exactly miserly (better than plasmas, but not by a lot). Doesn't help when power is out for 12 plus hours - which sadly, is not that uncommon here in Tornado Alley.

In trparky's case, with only the computer in sleep mode, and of course depending on the capacity of the UPS, it could be considerably longer.

Just another note for clarification. If everything is working properly, monitors will only go to sleep if they stop receiving a signal from the graphics solution. This should only happen when the graphics solution (the computer) is powered of, or when it goes into a standby (sleep) mode. In fact, this is how monitors know when to go into standby (sleep) mode. So if the computer is never powered off, or allowed to go into sleep mode, but instead only allowed to go to idle, the graphics solution will still be "alive" and outputting a signal to the monitor(s), keeping it (them) awake (and consuming lots of energy, lighting up the room).

It ones monitors go to sleep while the system is "idle", that is not normal, but clearly a problem! Or, the computer really is in a sleep/standby mode, and not idle, which is more likely.

FTR, I also have my old - 30 year old!!!! - 900VA APC UPS - I upgraded from 6V 10Ah cells to 4 x 6V 12Ah cells for even longer run times - supporting my garage door opener which I found out the hard way is essential since my garage door has no handle, key hole or manual release from the outside. I only get about 3 open/close cycles out of it, but that (so far) has been plenty.

 

[1freedude]

Just another note for clarification. If everything is working properly, monitors will only go to sleep if they stop receiving a signal from the graphics solution. This should only happen when the graphics solution (the computer) is powered of, or when it goes into a standby (sleep) mode. In fact, this is how monitors know when to go into standby (sleep) mode. So if the computer is never powered off, or allowed to go into sleep mode, but instead only allowed to go to idle, the graphics solution will still be "alive" and outputting a signal to the monitor(s), keeping it (them) awake (and consuming lots of energy, lighting up the room).

It ones monitors go to sleep while the system is "idle", that is not normal, but clearly a problem! Or, the computer really is in a sleep/standby mode, and not idle, which is more likely.

That is the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard. Windows and Linux allow the PC to continue working while the monitor is O-F-F. Also, Windows will can and will shut off the monitor after a predetermined time of idleness

 

[lexluthermiester]

View attachment 255841View attachment 255842View attachment 255843

My question is, why do you have your UPS connected to Windows at all?

 

[1freedude]

My question is, why do you have your UPS connected to Windows at all?

Thats what I was wondering.....does Windows actually see the UPS as a battery? .....While plugged in? If no APC software installed, and a USB or serial cable attached, it's just a battery to Windows?

 

[Bill_Bright]

Windows and Linux allow the PC to continue working while the monitor is O-F-F.

NOBODY, that includes me, said any OS would not work with the monitor "O-F-F".

You are confused by the issue here and that is MY BAD for not explaining myself better. My apologies.

The issue was about the difference in power consumption (1) at idle when computers are configured by the user to never go to sleep versus (2) when the defaults are left alone and the computers (and monitors) are allowed to go to sleep.

The point being, power consumption at idle (while low compared to when fully tasked) is still significantly higher than when the computer (and monitor) are in stand-by (sleep) mode. This was demonstrated nicely by trparky.

My question is, why do you have your UPS connected to Windows at all?

Exactly! That's why I recommended installing APC's PowerChute in my first post here.

Thats what I was wondering.....does Windows actually see the UPS as a battery? ... If no APC software installed, and a USB or serial cable attached, it's just a battery to Windows?

Yes, it sees it as a battery but not as an UPS. As you correctly noted, without the UPS software, it is just a battery to Windows. And that's the problem!

Microsoft, the Linux clan, and I guess Apple too really need to get together with the UPS hardware industry and come up with some industry standard so when a UPS is connected to a computer via USB, is is properly identified as a UPS instead of just a battery. This would be similar to how a mouse connected via USB is seen as a mouse and not a keyboard. There would have to be some firmware in the UPS communications interface that identifies it as a UPS in the same way a SSD tells the computer it is a SSD and not a hard drive.

It appears to me (okay, I'm guessing) that Windows sees the UPS battery similarly to how it sees a laptop battery. That's wrong. It should not see it as a battery at all! It should see it as an UPS. Then the OS makers can integrate some "basic" UPS monitoring and control features into the OS to allow the UPS to automatically shut the OS and computer down BEFORE the batteries run out.

APC and CyberPower can still have their software with enhanced features, giving consumers a choice. This would be similar to how all operating systems inherently know how to communicate - at basic levels - with all keyboards, monitors and graphics solutions without any special drivers. Then if the user wants to enable any special features, they install the manufacturer's custom software and/or driver package.

 

[trparky]

My question is, why do you have your UPS connected to Windows at all?

How else is the computer supposed to know if the power from the wall got turned off and that it's running on battery and if things continue, the computer needs to shut off?

Exactly! That's why I recommended installing APC's PowerChute in my first post here.

And here I always thought that native, operating system-provided monitoring, was always best. Guess I was wrong.

 

[lexluthermiester]

How else is the computer supposed to know if the power from the wall got turned off and that it's running on battery and if things continue, the computer needs to shut off?

Perhaps I'm missing something. Are you saying you leave your PC on all the time, even unattended? If so, stop doing that! Whenever you are going to leave your PC unattended, shut it down. A UPS is designed to allow you enough time to be able to complete/save your work during a power outage while you are using it. The way you seem to be using it is not a good idea, for the reasons you've encountered.

And here I always thought that native, operating system-provided monitoring, was always best. Guess I was wrong.

That's not it, they're not designed to work the way you're using it.

 

[trparky]

Are you saying you leave your PC on all the time, even unattended?

No, I don't.

A UPS is designed to allow you enough time to be able to complete/save your work during a power outage while you are using it.

I understand that. However, when I am using the computer and the power goes out, what am I supposed to do? Shut down immediately?

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Depends on how good your ups is or how long the battery last.
I've found the item that eats the most energy/ battery is the internet modem
As long as that isn't on the same ups as the pc only other items that eat energy/ battery is monitors so put if using two just leave the main monitor on the ups not both.
Windows sleeping eats very little energy unless it's woke up by a utility defender/....

But yes shut down is best the utility for ups I've used and it's not all that great it all depends on how long the battery lasts
Usually mine would last for about 20 minutes so plenty of time to save work and shut down and is usually best anyway because battery goes dead it's like a sudden power outage anyway.

But yeah poke the pooch anyway you want to.

Hiberfil.sys is a 13 GiB file, but I have plenty of space on my OS SSD. I usually ran my PC 24-7 though so I'm hoping my power bill will go down.

Mine would be 32gb
Way to large and frankly moving it to a hdd just adds more complexity than hibernation is worth.

 

[trparky]

I've found the item that eats the most energy/ battery is the internet modem

I find that to be rather surprising.

Depends on how good your ups is or how long the battery last.

Most power outages in my neck of the woods are very short, they usually only last a few seconds. Rarely are they longer than five minutes. However, I do want that kind of backup in case an outage is longer than a few seconds in case I'm in the middle of something and I need to save it.

Mine would be 32gb

I'm assuming that that's because you have 32 GBs of RAM?

Way to large and frankly moving it to a hdd just adds more complexity than hibernation is worth.

Yeah, I can see that too.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
My modem is a xfinity and the price of speed I suppose.

I hope for short outages to but last couple weren't all that short
One was one hour and second was 3 hours both these were three days apart last weekend turn out to be a bad center point switch on a pole.

I've had the ups software/ windows screw up and go into hibernate and I couldn't save stuff so I gave up on it.
As a general rule if I leave the house or go to sleep I shut down so obviously I'm not mining/.... so nothing mission critical going on 24-7-365

 

[trparky]

My modem is a xfinity and the price of speed I suppose.

OK, is it the nature of cable modems that they use more power than say... oh, I don't know, a VDSL modem?

I hope for short outages to but last couple weren't all that short

Eh, that sucks.

One was one hour and second was 3 hours both these were three days apart last weekend turn out to be a bad center point switch on a pole.

That really sucks.

I've had the ups software/ windows screw up and go into hibernate and I couldn't save stuff so I gave up on it.

Hibernating should bring whatever you were working on before back. Say, for instance, your Microsoft Word document should be intact. Or if you were writing code, your code should be intact.

As a general rule if I leave the house or go to sleep I shut down

I shut down for the reasons of saving power and with the cost of power, I imagine that more people will be doing the same.

 

[ThrashZone]

OK, is it the nature of cable modems that they use more power than say... oh, I don't know, a VDSL modem?

Eh, that sucks.

That really sucks.

Hibernating should bring whatever you were working on before back. Say, for instance, your Microsoft Word document should be intact. Or if you were writing code, your code should be intact.

I shut down for the reasons of saving power and with the cost of power, I imagine that more people will be doing the same.

Hi,
Newer xfinity modems sux it up is all I know

In a perfect world yes once written to disk things should be saved but it was annoying I couldn't wake up to do it manually and shut down properly this was a long time ago on a really small ups.

 

[trparky]

Hi,
Newer xfinity modems sux it up is all I know

My ISP-provided device isn't even a modem in the traditional sense, it's more or less a network medium translation device; it translates fiber to Ethernet. Oh, and it has Wi-Fi.

 

[lexluthermiester]

No, I don't.

Ok, that's good!

I understand that. However, when I am using the computer and the power goes out, what am I supposed to do? Shut down immediately?

Immediately? No. With mine, I get about 45minutes worth of usage power, which is more than enough time to finish what I'm doing, save whatever I'm working on and shut down.

Most power outages in my neck of the woods are very short, they usually only last a few seconds. Rarely are they longer than five minutes.

My area is a bit different. We don't loose power very often, but when we do it usually out for a few hours.

However, I do want that kind of backup in case an outage is longer than a few seconds in case I'm in the middle of something and I need to save it.

As I said above, I've always had enough time to finish up and shut down. Yours is a good one and depending on how much you have plugged into it, you should get 45minutes to an hour out of it.
EDIT:
I got curious and looked up the detailed specs.

APC Back-UPS Pro, 1000VA/600W, Tower, 120V, 10x NEMA 5-15R outlets, Sine Wave, AVR, USB Type A + C ports, LCD, User Replaceable Battery - BR1000MS | APC USA

BR1000MS - APC Back-UPS Pro, 1000VA/600W, Tower, 120V, 10x NEMA 5-15R outlets, Sine Wave, AVR, USB Type A + C ports, LCD, User Replaceable Battery | APC USA

www.apc.com

I thought this was a higher end model you had. Using the runtime calculator they provide, the nominal power usage I get, depending on what I'm doing, it would give about 25 to 30 minutes. That really should be enough time to complete something you're working on and shut down. Your mileage may vary..