Asking a dumb storage related question relating to B650 and X670 boards

[JrRacinFan]

Going to throw this out there, since PCI-e Gen isn't mentioned. Last time I check when shopping for AM5 I found that all Asus AM5 boards had at least 1 Gen5 M.2 wired in. Something to check into. Can you confirm @tabascosauz this still the case?

 

[tabascosauz]

Going to throw this out there, since PCI-e Gen isn't mentioned. Last time I check when shopping for AM5 I found that all Asus AM5 boards had at least 1 Gen5 M.2 wired in. Something to check into. Can you confirm @tabascosauz this still the case?

I think that's true not just for Asus but pretty much all X670. PCIe 5.0 NVMe isn't mandated for X670 and B650 but vendors generally choose to include the optional M.2 support anyway. Only Gigabyte and MSI seem to be skimping on a swath of their B650 boards.

There are one or two exceptions for B650 Asus but they're flaming garbage CSM line that no one should be buying regardless, so I think you are basically correct on that one.

 

[kapone32]

I think that's true not just for Asus but pretty much all X670. PCIe 5.0 NVMe isn't mandated for X670 and B650 but vendors generally choose to include the optional M.2 support anyway. Only Gigabyte and MSI seem to be skimping on a swath of their B650 boards.

There are one or two exceptions for B650 Asus but they're flaming garbage CSM line that no one should be buying regardless, so I think you are basically correct on that one.

Pcie 5.0 with M2 are for X670E, X670 and B650E.

 

[JrRacinFan]

Pcie 5.0 with M2 are for X670E, X670 and B650E.

https://www.asus.com/us/motherboards-components/motherboards/prime/prime-b650-plus/

This is what I was talking about.

 

[tabascosauz]

Pcie 5.0 with M2 are for X670E, X670 and B650E.

In practice, that "optional" becomes "yes" for pretty much all boards that don't have an egregiously low layer count (MSI B650, and the bottom half of Gigabyte B650).

I forgot about A620, but in the PCIe 5.0 context it doesn't seem worth mentioning either

 

[kapone32]

View attachment 339860

In practice, that "optional" becomes "yes" for pretty much all boards that don't have an egregiously low layer count (MSI B650, and the bottom half of Gigabyte B650).

I know what you mean. The problem is they also try to make some B650 boards look good with the layout as well. My principle is if it is more expensive than than the cheapest X670 or B650E board it is not worth it to get B650. Even then there are X670 boards that are better than more expensive B650E boards. They are cut down after all. The narrative is that people are only populating PCIe lanes with 1 GPU and maybe a capture card but in this age of compelling Games being at least 100 GB in size means that people will look to expand the storage in their PCs. NVME and SSDs cover every price range today. As an example on my HTPC I added some retro goodness. I found a program that can emulate old Games from Windows. I had the ROMs on a drive that I had cloned to a Seagate 530 2TB. I installed a 2TB RAID 0 drive with 2 cheap Team SSDs. I then copied the ROMS from the 530 to the RAID 0 drive. It took about 6 hours to copy everything. I think I hit the drive limit at 1Tb written in terms of burst speed. After that I cloned the OS to the 530 and then added the ROMs back to the program that was now on that drive. In total it took about 15 minutes. I was moving specific ROMs through folders though instead of the entire drive though but still only files like Amiga 5200 were left.

In conclusion at least on AM4 even though you will get great burst speeds with NVME, SATA RAID 0 is still quite fast. Of course it is not as fast as my main system but that is a different class of storage on AM5 X670E. Some of those boards are uber flexible in terms of storage but you have to pay to play. The 2 cheapest boards to get into uber storage are the Asus X670E E Strix Wifi and the MSI X670E Carbon. It almost makes no sense going higher than that for a Crosshair or Ace. It is actually a little insane that there are $1000 MBs for AM5. Those prices are in Canadian. I have had my first DAB so there is some alcohol influence in my opinion.

It does look like M2 rules the roost but with the expansion of HDD storage I expect NAND prices for 4TB drives to decline to a point where they are viable. Though the Kingston NV2 4TB has increased by $60 since launch. At one point it was $299 CAD and an excellent buy. Kingston cooked some sauce with those M2 drives to make them run like a Mercedes for Chevette prices. Indeed I bought like 10 for systems since they launched. I want one of those Lexar 790 T drives though.

I was using the 530 I mentioned in my main system but when I jumped to AM5 I kept it until I got a MP700 1TB. The long tern effect on performance of that drive made me get the 2TB variant when it was $199 on sale and use that (and my WD AN1500) as my main Game drive. When you have 800+ Games on your PC uber storage is nice.

 

[DaemonForce]

Hmmmm........I was referring more to the systemic PCIe and SATA sharing that occurred across pretty much every X470 and B450 board back in the day. This one on the TUF Plus seems more like a board-specific or one-off issue? Can't seem to find even on other forums, any widespread complaints on this issue.

I had to skip X470 because I wanted OoB support for Ryzen 3000. It could just be a case of getting greedy but the TUF and Prime boards are kind of their own class of product where they're just good enough to be above entry but still retain some bizarre behavior similar to the way old SBs would screw customers out of simple upgrades and support for new devices by locking down certain settings or using tech that lets us juggle this or that (but not have both things). I'm in a really bad habit of picking full size ATX boards, so I haven't run into this on anything compact and probably never will. One of the things that drew me to TUF was NVMe support since AMD 970 missed that boat entirely. The PCI-E arrangement is similar enough to the Prime where it looks like you can slot in 3-2-1. As in a triple slot GPU/accelerator, dual slot NIC/other and then some single slot expansion where you're not cutting corners on PCI-E interface. Thing is, PCI-E lanes are limited.

Can't have it all. (´・ω・`) On that note...

https://www.asus.com/us/motherboards-components/motherboards/prime/prime-b650-plus/

This is what I was talking about.

Looks like nothing has changed so I'm going to assume...Nothing has changed.

The amount of sata doesn't really matter to us. OP wants a maximum of 4x to split between a pair of HDDs and SSDs and that is extremely reasonable. I somehow manage to get by with 2xHDDs in an eMachines and keep a pair of sata SSDs in my Ryzen workstation. I don't necessarily need them. A pair of sata SSDs exist only to keep some things separate from my NVMe and it's obvious there's a disconnect there in access time, seq performance, size and durability. For some things, sata is just better. How?

The 240GB Corsair MP510 NVMe in here is junk. It was way too fast for me to notice SteamVR chewing through it the first two weeks and this is what I work with until Crucial T500s drop to a good price:

Drive wear is still a very real thing. Maybe when it reaches the 5yr mark I'll replace it anyway.

If I need caching with infinite TBW I'll just slump whatever onto the WarpDrive. There is no harm in using dated enterprise equipment.

Maybe someday we'll get lucky with compact boards that are arranged to have an M.2 slot for the front and back, an x16, an x4 at the very bottom, pair of sata and no lane juggling at like $150. Can't get here soon enough.

 

[kapone32]

I had to skip X470 because I wanted OoB support for Ryzen 3000. It could just be a case of getting greedy but the TUF and Prime boards are kind of their own class of product where they're just good enough to be above entry but still retain some bizarre behavior similar to the way old SBs would screw customers out of simple upgrades and support for new devices by locking down certain settings or using tech that lets us juggle this or that (but not have both things). I'm in a really bad habit of picking full size ATX boards, so I haven't run into this on anything compact and probably never will. One of the things that drew me to TUF was NVMe support since AMD 970 missed that boat entirely. The PCI-E arrangement is similar enough to the Prime where it looks like you can slot in 3-2-1. As in a triple slot GPU/accelerator, dual slot NIC/other and then some single slot expansion where you're not cutting corners on PCI-E interface. Thing is, PCI-E lanes are limited.

Can't have it all. (´・ω・`) On that note...

Looks like nothing has changed so I'm going to assume...Nothing has changed.

The amount of sata doesn't really matter to us. OP wants a maximum of 4x to split between a pair of HDDs and SSDs and that is extremely reasonable. I somehow manage to get by with 2xHDDs in an eMachines and keep a pair of sata SSDs in my Ryzen workstation. I don't necessarily need them. A pair of sata SSDs exist only to keep some things separate from my NVMe and it's obvious there's a disconnect there in access time, seq performance, size and durability. For some things, sata is just better. How?

The 240GB Corsair MP510 NVMe in here is junk. It was way too fast for me to notice SteamVR chewing through it the first two weeks and this is what I work with until Crucial T500s drop to a good price:
View attachment 339917

Drive wear is still a very real thing. Maybe when it reaches the 5yr mark I'll replace it anyway.
View attachment 339919

If I need caching with infinite TBW I'll just slump whatever onto the WarpDrive. There is no harm in using dated enterprise equipment.

Maybe someday we'll get lucky with compact boards that are arranged to have an M.2 slot for the front and back, an x16, an x4 at the very bottom, pair of sata and no lane juggling at like $150. Can't get here soon enough.

You had me at Emachines. I have not seen that name in like 20 years.

 

[tabascosauz]

I'm in a really bad habit of picking full size ATX boards, so I haven't run into this on anything compact and probably never will.

The amount of sata doesn't really matter to us. OP wants a maximum of 4x to split between a pair of HDDs and SSDs and that is extremely reasonable. I somehow manage to get by with 2xHDDs in an eMachines and keep a pair of sata SSDs in my Ryzen workstation. I don't necessarily need them. A pair of sata SSDs exist only to keep some things separate from my NVMe and it's obvious there's a disconnect there in access time, seq performance, size and durability. For some things, sata is just better. How?

Holy. That do be a lot of writes. My oldest still functioning SSD in an external enclosure is only just cresting 75TBW.

I guess it's a case of pick your poison. ITX doesn't get an opportunity to run into hidden bandwidth sharing limitations, because it doesn't have the features. Otherwise, amongst the 10 AM4 boards i've used there's definitely no shortage of other frustrating quirks that they don't advertise or tell you about.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

A deal for the MSI X670E GAMING PLUS WIFI just came up for £230. Debating if its worth going for that over the more expensive B650e-E

(Also very happy that my thread unconsciously fostered some great information and debate. I honestly thought this was going to be a very short one and done thread.)

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Well asus warranty and bios support wise is usually 3 years and EOL
Not sure if that's true for asus and amd products but I do think MSI supports their products longer bios wise.

 

[DaemonForce]

I/O plate looks pretty cool.

Display outs are up and out of the way. Solo USB-C and wireless out are down and out of the way too. USB 2.0 is present though, which conflicts with my philosophy and history of trouble-free boards but the real star of the show is that 2.5GbE. There are plenty of headers too. At what is it, £230? Yeah if I didn't have an AM4 system right here I'd get it. ATX again...

Also this could be awkward depending on your hardware but it should be perfectly fine for any gamer for like the next decade.

Also, damn dude.

Yeah it's worth it. Also I had no idea dual chipset was a thing. This is wild.

The only hangup I can find about this board is that it's only supporting Win11 onward. Not sure how to feel about that but this is solid.

 

[tabascosauz]

A deal for the MSI X670E GAMING PLUS WIFI just came up for £230. Debating if its worth going for that over the more expensive B650e-E

(Also very happy that my thread unconsciously fostered some great information and debate. I honestly thought this was going to be a very short one and done thread.)

Honestly could go either way. Both boards offer some good stuff. If POST code and a clear CMOS button don't really matter to you, then you might not really be the intended audience for the Strix-E (and most Strix-Es ever), which is as usual pretty overpriced. BIOS flashback is overwhelmingly the most important thing and both boards have it as expected. MSI support is certainly better to deal with than Asus, but also with an eye to future DDR5 memory controllers I wouldn't be too enthused about spending any decent amount of money on a 6-layer board (X670E Gaming Plus).

By instinct I would take the Realtek 2.5 on the MSI (even if it's BG Dragon variant) over the Intel i225 on the Strix-E any day...........but the Killer E3100 on my board (rebranded i225) hasn't given me any of the apocalyptic problems that i225 has suffered in the past few years, which leads me to believe they may have finally found a good stepping.

 

[ir_cow]

Just gonna charm in here. Post Codes for AMD is a must unless you are familiar with how AM5 handles memory and overclocking. Otherwise you are going to be sitting on a red led wondering if it will ever post.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

I guess the B650E-E is the only real choice here then for now.

Thank you both. I'll keep crossing my fingers that it goes on sale on amazon or some place.

 

[ir_cow]

Post codes while fairly useless of what they actually mean, it does stop of certain values and that helps a lot. Many of hours saved just watching Code 15 (memory training) and CS5 (memory stuck)

 

[JrRacinFan]

@ir_cow +1 Dr.Debug post display is the only thing I miss seeing on my board

 

[DaemonForce]

I guess the B650E-E is the only real choice here then for now.

Thank you both. I'll keep crossing my fingers that it goes on sale on amazon or some place.

Do you foresee any reason for those prices to budge? I mentioned earlier my board was $200 new in Oct 2019 and today it's $197 new from the same outlet.
That thing is an X570 TUF. Since then we've gotten B550, a new AM5 socket and a whole suite of newer chipsets that have not done a great job of influencing purchasing decisions.
I can't find the X670E Gaming on Newegg but the Pro B650M-A and B650 Tomahawk appear for me at a really good sub-$150 price. The B650 Gaming also looks like another tolerable choice that appears to allow that magical 3-2-1 slotting order that I want so much out of full sized boards. If you can't find the first choice I would go over each of the manuals for these very carefully. You already know why.

 

[JrRacinFan]

I can't find the X670E Gaming on Newegg but the Pro B650M-A and B650 Tomahawk appear for me at a really good sub-$150 price.

On the subject of budget am5 (I know that's a hard say) There is a couple A620 boards that aren't horrible. I would only put a 7600 or 7700 on them tho, maybe MAYBE a 7800x3d

 

[tabascosauz]

On the subject of budget am5 (I know that's a hard say) There is a couple A620 boards that aren't horrible. I would only put a 7600 or 7700 on them tho, maybe MAYBE a 7800x3d

A620 isn't supposed to support any kind of OC though, including PBO. There were stories floating around about PBO menu showing up unofficially on some A620 boards but your guess is as good as mine as to whether they actually function. On AM4 this wasn't an issue because of PBO2 Tuner, but last I checked it does not support or function properly on AM5. So even on 7800X3D where boost override is hardlocked, curve optimizer is still very valuable and that falls under the PBO menu in almost all cases.

Also, the A620 boards in general are kinda doodoo. There's a rare decent one here or there but they're only because they're pretty much a low-effort PCH swap from a B650 board (TUF and the ITX options). And those aforementioned B650 (non-E) boards aren't very expensive. Prices on the mid-range fare haven't budged much from B550.

 

[ir_cow]

Only price drop will be clearance if a new chipset comes for Ryzen 9000.

On the subject of A620. No OC and basically max is 2x single rank 5600. They are budget for a reason. 100c on the VRM easily if you use a 7950X. But for $100, can't find anything better that isn't used. (Which I would buy first).

 

[JrRacinFan]

@tabascosauz @ir_cow and this is why I'm pondering switching out the itx portion of the rig for 13th Gen Intel ... B760 looks nice

 

[tabascosauz]

@tabascosauz @ir_cow and this is why I'm pondering switching out the itx portion of the rig for 13th Gen Intel ... B760 looks nice

B660/B760 has issues with access to voltage control for VCCSA, no?

B650I Aorus Ultra, B650I AX, B650I Lightning are all pretty affordable. I just didn't opt for any of them because Gigabyte still has the bad socket placement and the Lightning was out of stock.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

Do you foresee any reason for those prices to budge?

Not really. But if Im buying from amazon. Their prices fluctuate more than dedicated retailers so its a case of crossing my fingers and keep and eye on the price

::EDIT::

I checked and the B650E-E has been as low as £255. Currently its £270. I know the difference is a measly 5-6% but discount is still better than no discount

 

[JrRacinFan]

B660/B760 has issues with access to voltage control for VCCSA, no?

From what I am reading even a locked-in-bios vccsa value should be ok for up to 6400MT/s ddr5 or 3200MT/s ddr4 xmp. Which I would be ok with.

EDIT: Sorry for derailing the thread for a bit my friend @FreedomEclipse