• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Can I squeeze more out of 2x F4-3600C14D-16GVKA kits?

tabascosauz

Moderator
Supporter
Staff member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
7,348 (2.32/day)
Location
Western Canada
System Name ab┃ob
Processor 7800X3D┃5800X3D
Motherboard B650E PG-ITX┃B550-I Strix
Cooling PA120+T30┃AXP120x67
Memory 64GB 6000CL30┃32GB 3600CL14
Video Card(s) RTX 4070 Ti Eagle┃RTX A2000
Storage 8TB of SSDs┃1TB SN550
Display(s) 43" QN90B / 32" M32Q / 27" S2721DGF
Case Caselabs S3┃Lone Industries L5
Power Supply Corsair HX1000┃HDPlex
GOOD ONE, I'm going to do that...

@tabascosauz -
3800CL15 seems a good start with 1.45v, but what timings are advised? 15-14-14-??? Unclear on that one.

Here's mine @ 1.42v, but the VDIMM you need will be different. Completely stable through 20 runs TM5 Extreme1, but don't copy my procODT obviously (thinking of changing that even though nothing wrong). VSOC/VDDP/VDDGs also should be tailored to your CPU's needs.

The point of CL15 is to cut down on the VDIMM so that you may be able to get away with passive airflow only. If you're going to drop tRCD and tRP in the pursuit of performance further you may as well just run 14-14-14 @ 1.5v+.........mine does 3800 14-14-14 @ 1.51V completely stable but it's kinda complicated and I don't see any real performance benefit

3800cl15 timings.png
 

freeagent

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
7,294 (3.66/day)
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
System Name Altered Beast
Processor AMD R9 5900X, 5800X3D
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VIII Dark Hero
Cooling Thermalright Frost Commander 140, NF-A14 3K, T30
Memory 2x8 G.Skill Trident Z Royal 3200C14, 2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z Black and White 3200 C14
Video Card(s) Zotac 4070 Ti Trinity OC
Storage WD SN850X 2TB, SN850 1TB, SN770 1TB - Asus Hyper M.2, SN770 1TB, SN750 500GB
Display(s) LG 50UP7100
Case Fractal Torrent Compact RGB
Audio Device(s) JBL 2.1 Deep Bass
Power Supply EVGA SuperNova 750w G+, Monster HDP1800
Mouse Zowie EC2 Evo
Keyboard Logitech G213
Software Yes
Benchmark Scores Yes
That's the whole point of MT86.
Ehh.. I don't know.. It was good back in the day when you had less than half a gig of ram, but now a days.. I'm not really sold. Windows isn't the house of cards it used to be, it can take a beating. I check in windows and I don't have any issues..
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
1,457 (0.37/day)
Location
Australia
Ehh.. I don't know.. It was good back in the day when you had less than half a gig of ram, but now a days.. I'm not really sold. Windows isn't the house of cards it used to be, it can take a beating. I check in windows and I don't have any issues..
Sure windows these days can take a beating IF you like repairing your OS when loading errors occur. I for one don't like wasting time with that, in the end, the ram can pass all the tests or it doesn't .
Take a look around on the web, plenty of advice sites for memory testing in windows nearly always recommend MT86 as an option.
 

tabascosauz

Moderator
Supporter
Staff member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
7,348 (2.32/day)
Location
Western Canada
System Name ab┃ob
Processor 7800X3D┃5800X3D
Motherboard B650E PG-ITX┃B550-I Strix
Cooling PA120+T30┃AXP120x67
Memory 64GB 6000CL30┃32GB 3600CL14
Video Card(s) RTX 4070 Ti Eagle┃RTX A2000
Storage 8TB of SSDs┃1TB SN550
Display(s) 43" QN90B / 32" M32Q / 27" S2721DGF
Case Caselabs S3┃Lone Industries L5
Power Supply Corsair HX1000┃HDPlex
Sure windows these days can take a beating IF you like repairing your OS when loading errors occur. I for one don't like wasting time with that, in the end, the ram can pass all the tests or it doesn't .
Take a look around on the web, plenty of advice sites for memory testing in windows nearly always recommend MT86 as an option.

I like to give Windows 10 a lot of shit but tbh it's fairly resilient. Hasn't really completely crapped the bed since my early days of running blatantly unstable CJR on my 3700X because I didn't know what HCI Memtest was. And MT86 never even found that, what I was running would have thrown errors barely into the double digits in HCI......so I strictly relegate MT86 to a quick hardware check and nothing more

I was referring more to the minor corruption that sfc /scannow and DISM checkHealth finds, they'll pop up relatively quickly if you daily an unstable setup. Can result in some odd behaviour but doesn't exactly break the OS.

Lord knows I've run dozens of very sketchy profiles on my 4650G and 5700G that were lucky to POST, still held up fine.

What is much more likely to fail ime is the BIOS, I think I've had at least one instance from every AM4 board I've owned save for the ASRocks (only bc I didn't really use them) where unstable mem randomly nukes the BIOS so badly that it needs to be reflashed. My B550I Aorus AX has had it about a dozen times in the past year.

Since that's on POST or before, it's not something MT86 can prevent either. Best to just know the limits of the hardware and respect them.
 

freeagent

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
7,294 (3.66/day)
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
System Name Altered Beast
Processor AMD R9 5900X, 5800X3D
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VIII Dark Hero
Cooling Thermalright Frost Commander 140, NF-A14 3K, T30
Memory 2x8 G.Skill Trident Z Royal 3200C14, 2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z Black and White 3200 C14
Video Card(s) Zotac 4070 Ti Trinity OC
Storage WD SN850X 2TB, SN850 1TB, SN770 1TB - Asus Hyper M.2, SN770 1TB, SN750 500GB
Display(s) LG 50UP7100
Case Fractal Torrent Compact RGB
Audio Device(s) JBL 2.1 Deep Bass
Power Supply EVGA SuperNova 750w G+, Monster HDP1800
Mouse Zowie EC2 Evo
Keyboard Logitech G213
Software Yes
Benchmark Scores Yes
Sure windows these days can take a beating IF you like repairing your OS when loading errors occur
Yeah that doesn't happen to me, not sure if I should feel good or bad about that. If it works for you brother, run it! I have my ways of getting to the bottom of stability, I haven't used MT86 in t least a decade, but probably more..

And I agree, the bios is usually the weak spot, but I have had good luck with this board, and most if not all of my Asus boards. P8Z77-V is shit though. I don't think I like Asus midrange stuff after using that board. I watched it die slowly. It was a sad death. It works fine but it cannot see anything from the southbridge.
 

SkyStreaker

New Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2021
Messages
22 (0.03/day)
ZenTimings_Screenshot_27298857,9723824.png


Reflashed the BIOS this morning, reseated the CPU/GPU/RAM and rewired everything. Ran this with TM5 with the Extreme1 config for my entire morning. It seems stable thusfar. What would be my next steps?
 

freeagent

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
7,294 (3.66/day)
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
System Name Altered Beast
Processor AMD R9 5900X, 5800X3D
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VIII Dark Hero
Cooling Thermalright Frost Commander 140, NF-A14 3K, T30
Memory 2x8 G.Skill Trident Z Royal 3200C14, 2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z Black and White 3200 C14
Video Card(s) Zotac 4070 Ti Trinity OC
Storage WD SN850X 2TB, SN850 1TB, SN770 1TB - Asus Hyper M.2, SN770 1TB, SN750 500GB
Display(s) LG 50UP7100
Case Fractal Torrent Compact RGB
Audio Device(s) JBL 2.1 Deep Bass
Power Supply EVGA SuperNova 750w G+, Monster HDP1800
Mouse Zowie EC2 Evo
Keyboard Logitech G213
Software Yes
Benchmark Scores Yes
1900 1:1 is what I would try next. If it can’t do it then back off, but you want 1:1.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,400 (0.32/day)
Location
78°55' N, 11°56' E
System Name -aLiEn beaTs-
Processor Intel i7 11700kf @ 5.055Ghz
Motherboard MSI Z490 Unify
Cooling Corsair H115i Pro RGB
Memory G.skill Royal Silver 4400 cl17 @ 4403mhz
Video Card(s) Zotac GTX 980TI AMP!Omega Factory OC 1418MHz
Storage Intel SSD 330, Crucial SSD MX300 & MX500
Display(s) Samsung C24FG73 144HZ
Case CoolerMaster HAF 932 USB3.0
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD @ 2.1 Bose acoustimass 5
Power Supply CoolerMaster 850W v2 gold atx 2.52
Mouse Razer viper 8k
Keyboard Logitech G19s
Software Windows 11 Pro 21h2 64Bit
Benchmark Scores ► ♪♫♪♩♬♫♪♭
have you OC'd the tertiary timings? -- those get a ton of performance above and beyond what a frequency bump will do -- especially with 4 dimms.

primarily trrd_s / trrd_l /tfaw to [4 / 6 / 24] (loose) then [4 / 5 / 20] then [4 / 4 / 16] (super tight ) or 4 / 5 / 16

Try something like

trrd_s / trrd_l /tfaw - [4 / 6 / 24] (to start)

and:

tRDRD_sg = 7
tRDRD_dg = 4
tRDRD_dr = 7
tRDRD_dd = 7

tWRWR_sg = 7
tWRWR_dg = 4
tWRWR_dr = 7
tWRWR_dd = 7


And then run a test -- i think you will be surprised at the performance increase.
I tried this on my F4-3600C16D-16GTZKW @ 3960 cl16 and I didnt really see any diff in aida64





I tweaked trfc once, but it failed in gaming, had some freezes, i used max 1.40v, now im at 1.44v, what would be the safe trfc? Atm its stock again 694, I used it as low as 450. But not at higher voltages.
 

Attachments

  • 20211126_161213.jpg
    20211126_161213.jpg
    2.2 MB · Views: 76
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 215115

Guest
View attachment 226666

Reflashed the BIOS this morning, reseated the CPU/GPU/RAM and rewired everything. Ran this with TM5 with the Extreme1 config for my entire morning. It seems stable thusfar. What would be my next steps?
Next step is CL14 with 1.5V+. You need to lower the tRFC waaay down to under 300 and your tFAW to 16/20. tRRDL to 4 or 6. tRAS 24 will not be stable without at least 1.6V but you can probably do 28 with 42 tRC. tRDWR can probably go down to 8 with 3 tWRRD or 9 with 1 tWRRD.

I tried this on my F4-3600C16D-16GTZKW @ 3960 cl16 and I didnt really see any diff in aida64





I tweaked trfc once, but it failed in gaming, had some freezes, i used max 1.40v, now im at 1.44v, what would be the safe trfc? Atm its stock again 694, I used it as low as 450. But not at higher voltages.
Your timings are all over the place, my dude. Could you post a screenshot of ZenTimings so we can figure out what's going on?

 
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,400 (0.32/day)
Location
78°55' N, 11°56' E
System Name -aLiEn beaTs-
Processor Intel i7 11700kf @ 5.055Ghz
Motherboard MSI Z490 Unify
Cooling Corsair H115i Pro RGB
Memory G.skill Royal Silver 4400 cl17 @ 4403mhz
Video Card(s) Zotac GTX 980TI AMP!Omega Factory OC 1418MHz
Storage Intel SSD 330, Crucial SSD MX300 & MX500
Display(s) Samsung C24FG73 144HZ
Case CoolerMaster HAF 932 USB3.0
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD @ 2.1 Bose acoustimass 5
Power Supply CoolerMaster 850W v2 gold atx 2.52
Mouse Razer viper 8k
Keyboard Logitech G19s
Software Windows 11 Pro 21h2 64Bit
Benchmark Scores ► ♪♫♪♩♬♫♪♭
Next step is CL14 with 1.5V+. You need to lower the tRFC waaay down to under 300 and your tFAW to 16/20. tRRDL to 4 or 6. tRAS 24 will not be stable without at least 1.6V but you can probably do 28 with 42 tRC. tRDWR can probably go down to 8 with 3 tWRRD or 9 with 1 tWRRD.


Your timings are all over the place, my dude. Could you post a screenshot of ZenTimings so we can figure out what's going on?

Im on intel z490 is there a alternative to this?


Ok I found this and so far I tweaked

trfc to 450 and the timings
trrd_s / trrd_l /tfaw - [4 / 5 / 20]

and:

tRDRD_sg = 7
tRDRD_dg = 4
tRDRD_dr = 7
tRDRD_dd = 7

tWRWR_sg = 7
tWRWR_dg = 4
tWRWR_dr = 7
tWRWR_dd = 7


1637942102319.png



and get this now atm, usually im at around these speeds.. Even with default timings, ok latency is ~ 43-44ns or so.
cachemem trfc450.png



best was one time wjhen I tested 4233 CL16 & trfc 450 @ 1.45v, but I think it wasnt completely stable

cachemembest lat.pngcachemem 4237 trfc 450.png
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,400 (0.32/day)
Location
78°55' N, 11°56' E
System Name -aLiEn beaTs-
Processor Intel i7 11700kf @ 5.055Ghz
Motherboard MSI Z490 Unify
Cooling Corsair H115i Pro RGB
Memory G.skill Royal Silver 4400 cl17 @ 4403mhz
Video Card(s) Zotac GTX 980TI AMP!Omega Factory OC 1418MHz
Storage Intel SSD 330, Crucial SSD MX300 & MX500
Display(s) Samsung C24FG73 144HZ
Case CoolerMaster HAF 932 USB3.0
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD @ 2.1 Bose acoustimass 5
Power Supply CoolerMaster 850W v2 gold atx 2.52
Mouse Razer viper 8k
Keyboard Logitech G19s
Software Windows 11 Pro 21h2 64Bit
Benchmark Scores ► ♪♫♪♩♬♫♪♭
I edited my post and added all the info

1637944008448.png


Comparing to this, i seem to be around his values, ok except trfc and 3-4 deep timings, should I try his extra different timings? Also why is his trefi so high and mine so low by default?

original pic, he has 4400MHZ CL16
 
Last edited:

freeagent

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
7,294 (3.66/day)
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
System Name Altered Beast
Processor AMD R9 5900X, 5800X3D
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VIII Dark Hero
Cooling Thermalright Frost Commander 140, NF-A14 3K, T30
Memory 2x8 G.Skill Trident Z Royal 3200C14, 2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z Black and White 3200 C14
Video Card(s) Zotac 4070 Ti Trinity OC
Storage WD SN850X 2TB, SN850 1TB, SN770 1TB - Asus Hyper M.2, SN770 1TB, SN750 500GB
Display(s) LG 50UP7100
Case Fractal Torrent Compact RGB
Audio Device(s) JBL 2.1 Deep Bass
Power Supply EVGA SuperNova 750w G+, Monster HDP1800
Mouse Zowie EC2 Evo
Keyboard Logitech G213
Software Yes
Benchmark Scores Yes
1900/1900 1866/1866 1:1.

1900/1800 still “ok” but not ideal.
 

dgianstefani

TPU Proofreader
Staff member
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Messages
3,551 (1.58/day)
Location
Swansea, Wales
System Name Silent
Processor Ryzen 7800X3D @ 5.15ghz bclk, TG AM5 High Performance Heatspreader
Motherboard ASUS ROG Strix X670E-I, chipset fans removed
Cooling Optimus AMD Raw Copper/Plexi, HWLABS Copper 240/40+240/30, D5, 4x Noctua A12x25, Mayhems Ultra Pure
Memory 32 GB Dominator Platinum 6150 MHz 26-36-36-48, 57ns AIDA, 2050 FLCK, 160 ns TRFC
Video Card(s) RTX 3080 Ti Founders Edition, Conductonaut Extreme, 18 W/mK MinusPad Extreme, Corsair XG7 Waterblock
Storage Intel Optane DC P1600X 118 GB, Samsung 990 Pro 2 TB
Display(s) 32" 240 Hz 1440p Samsung G7, 31.5" 165 Hz 1440p LG NanoIPS Ultragear
Case Sliger SM570 CNC Aluminium 13-Litre, 3D printed feet, custom front panel with pump/res combo
Audio Device(s) Audeze Maxwell Ultraviolet, Razer Nommo Pro
Power Supply Corsair SF750 Platinum, transparent custom cables, Sentinel Pro 1500 Online Double Conversion UPS
Mouse Razer Viper Pro V2 Mercury White w/Tiger Ice Skates & Pulsar Supergrip tape
Keyboard Wooting 60HE+ module, TOFU Redux Burgundy w/brass weight, Prismcaps White & Jellykey, lubed/modded
Software Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 19053.3803
Benchmark Scores Legendary
Infinity Fabric/memory.

It's not that hard.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,622 (0.49/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
Im on intel z490 is there a alternative to this?


Ok I found this and so far I tweaked

trfc to 450 and the timings
trrd_s / trrd_l /tfaw - [4 / 5 / 20]

and:

tRDRD_sg = 7
tRDRD_dg = 4
tRDRD_dr = 7
tRDRD_dd = 7

tWRWR_sg = 7
tWRWR_dg = 4
tWRWR_dr = 7
tWRWR_dd = 7


View attachment 226686


and get this now atm, usually im at around these speeds.. Even with default timings, ok latency is ~ 43-44ns or so.
View attachment 226687


best was one time wjhen I tested 4233 CL16 & trfc 450 @ 1.45v, but I think it wasnt completely stable

View attachment 226688View attachment 226689

I would look at these two parameters: tRFC and tREFI.

What you want to do here is increase tREFI (refresh interval) and decrease tRFC (time to recharge/refresh). What this is saying is that every 14,055 clock cycles your RAM will stop for 450 clocks to refresh the memory locations. This basically means you spend 3.2% of the time doing this. If you can, for example, double tREFI to 30,000, you'll gain back half that or 1.6% of the time your memory is currently sitting idle while doing a refresh.

I've found tREFI to be the one that can be changed quite a bit, while tRFC can't.


1637948243205.png
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,400 (0.32/day)
Location
78°55' N, 11°56' E
System Name -aLiEn beaTs-
Processor Intel i7 11700kf @ 5.055Ghz
Motherboard MSI Z490 Unify
Cooling Corsair H115i Pro RGB
Memory G.skill Royal Silver 4400 cl17 @ 4403mhz
Video Card(s) Zotac GTX 980TI AMP!Omega Factory OC 1418MHz
Storage Intel SSD 330, Crucial SSD MX300 & MX500
Display(s) Samsung C24FG73 144HZ
Case CoolerMaster HAF 932 USB3.0
Audio Device(s) X-Fi Titanium HD @ 2.1 Bose acoustimass 5
Power Supply CoolerMaster 850W v2 gold atx 2.52
Mouse Razer viper 8k
Keyboard Logitech G19s
Software Windows 11 Pro 21h2 64Bit
Benchmark Scores ► ♪♫♪♩♬♫♪♭
I would look at these two parameters: tRFC and tREFI.

What you want to do here is increase tREFI (refresh interval) and decrease tRFC (time to recharge/refresh). What this is saying is that every 14,055 clock cycles your RAM will stop for 450 clocks to refresh the memory locations. This basically means you spend 3.2% of the time doing this. If you can, for example, double tREFI to 30,000, you'll gain back half that or 1.6% of the time your memory is currently sitting idle while doing a refresh.

I've found tREFI to be the one that can be changed quite a bit, while tRFC can't.


View attachment 226695
Thanks,

I've set trefi 30000 and trfc to 400 and so far so good. My no1 game atm Destiny2 works ok too for now.

Btw what would be the safe lowest voltage for ~ 4Ghz (3960MHz) CL16, 1.40v or I need more by default? atm testing 1.44v, I had at 1.40v but wasnt sure was it voltage or some timing. Guess this trefi too tight?

4237MHZ CL16 made the best results, but mobo auto set SA and IO a lot,.. Guess this 4233MHZ CL16 definitely needs 1.45v by default?
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
1,457 (0.37/day)
Location
Australia
And I agree, the bios is usually the weak spot, but I have had good luck with this board, and most if not all of my Asus boards. P8Z77-V is shit though. I don't think I like Asus midrange stuff after using that board. I watched it die slowly. It was a sad death. It works fine but it cannot see anything from the southbridge.


The latest bios on this Gigabyte Z590 Aorus Ultra certainly lets you know pretty quickly if it will accept custom RAM speed & timings. It's pretty forgiving so far, with daily testing over the last few weeks I've never had to reset the cmos once! unlike my previous B450 & X570 rigs. 1st time I owned a Gigabyte board since Lynnfield days.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,622 (0.49/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
The latest bios on this Gigabyte Z590 Aorus Ultra certainly lets you know pretty quickly if it will accept custom RAM speed & timings. It's pretty forgiving so far, with daily testing over the last few weeks I've never had to reset the cmos once! unlike my previous B450 & X570 rigs. 1st time I owned a Gigabyte board since Lynnfield days.

Gigabyte was pretty bad ~10 years ago in the FX days. Seems like they went much more upscale with the Aorus line. That is one beefy power setup on the Ultra with 16 phases and 90A caps.
 
Top