Considering CPU, Motherboard, Ram upgrade soon

[Bill_Bright]

I don't believe in waiting - except to wait until you have built up your savings so you can go all in at once. That is, never buy piecemeal.

The problem with waiting for something that is just around the corner is there is ALWAYS something better just around the corner.

If you can wait, why are you considering buying now? If you need something now, then buy it now. If not, then wait until you are ready to pull the trigger and buy everything now - and don't worry about what's around the corner.

Beside, regardless what you buy today, as soon as you get it home and setup just the way you want it - something newer, better, faster, shinier will be sitting just around the corner ready to soon make your new hardware totally obsolete and last week.

 

[cvaldes]

I don't believe in waiting - except to wait until you have built up your savings so you can go all in at once. That is, never buy piecemeal.

The problem with waiting for something that is just around the corner is there is ALWAYS something better just around the corner.

If you can wait, why are you considering buying now? If you need something now, then buy it now. If not, then wait until you are ready to pull the trigger and buy everything now - and don't worry about what's around the corner.

Beside, regardless what you buy today, as soon as you get it home and setup just the way you want it - something newer, better, faster, shinier will be sitting just around the corner ready to soon make your new hardware totally obsolete and last week.

Many TPU community members seek informed advice before making their purchase decisions because to them, these are sizable purchases or they hope that the extra experience of seasoned builders will provide some sort of insight. Even *gasp* wisdom, if the stars align.

Not everyone has the disposable cash to plunk down $500 for a high-end motherboard.

Some don't live in markets where fully-refundable returns are a possibility, a specific point many American TPU participants don't seem to understand.

A handful of TPU community members run their own PC repair shops and have a totally different perspective on PC hardware because they touch build, teardown and repair hundreds of them each year. Some of them will smugly grin at Joe Consumer who paid $8 for a 3.5 g syringe of "boutique" thermal paste instead of the $50 one-gallon bucket of no-name industrial grease sitting on a shelf in their workshop. They have lost touch with the circumstances that surround the average PC buyer. Many of these people have vast amounts of knowledge but have lost their ability (if they had it from the start) to share their information to Joe Consumer in a digestible manner and quantity relevant to Joe Consumer's reality.

Even if the merchant offers a 30-day return window, some people would rather take the time to pick something that will likely be satisfactory rather than go through a half dozen trials even if fully-refundable returns are possible. I simply don't want to fill out online return forms, print out return labels, box up five motherboards and walk one to the UPS Store every other week. Sure, it's good exercise but I'd rather enjoy my exercise with better scenery.

And yes, some people are deathly afraid of buyer's remorse. Nothing we can do about that.

No matter what, ultimately it's their money, their decision. The same with buying a package of toilet paper or a house. We're all adults here, we are responsible for our own actions. The trouble with purchasing decisions is that the conditions to rectify mistakes aren't set by the buyers.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Note, if the current license is OEM, you agreed to the terms of the license agreement (EULA) when you decided to keep using that license on the old machine. That's what makes it legally binding. Point being, while you could simply move the boot drive to the new motherboard and it likely would work (at least for awhile), that does not mean it is now an authorized (or legal) installation. Microsoft will not waste their time going after you in court, but they have been known to disable unauthorized/illegal copies of Windows once detected.

So again, if your current license is a full retail license, no problem. Just make sure you uninstall all previous installations so that license is only used for your new system. But if OEM (as the vast majority are) include a new license in your budget. And in that case, I recommend a full retail so you never have to deal with this again.

If you do swap your boot drive to a new machine (assuming it works) the next time you go online MS will detect your OEM copy of windows as no longer activated. You can reactivate it with purchasing a new key however it probably goes without saying a fresh install is typically the best option.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Many TPU community members seek informed advice before making their purchase decisions because to them, these are sizable purchases or they hope that the extra experience of seasoned builders will provide some sort of insight.

Umm, I understand the reasons for seeking advice.

Not everyone has the funds to plunk down $500 for a high-end motherboard.
Some don't live in markets where fully-refundable returns are a possibility

Who said anything about $500 motherboards or refundable returns?

Nothing in your post had anything to do with my post - which you quoted. And for the record, the OP lives in the US.

Vario indicated in his first post that he is considering upgrading the CPU, motherboard and RAM "simultaneously". I am saying that is wise. Don't do it piecemeal and don't bother waiting for something coming just around the corner if you are ready to buy today. That philosophy gets you always waiting, or always causing doubt about not waiting.

With IT being industries within industries, each constantly pushing the state-of-the-art but none doing so at the same time, playing the waiting game almost always is a losing game or one that instills doubt - with the exception of waiting until the budget allows you to get everything at once.

FTR, piecemeal is bad for several reasons - besides something new just around the corner. Waiting to get the motherboard, for example, helps ensure the latest BIOS firmware is already installed. Another good reason is the warranty period begins on the date of purchase - as does any "no questions asked" return policy. If you buy piecemeal over several months, you may not discover something is DOA until the warranty is half over and the merchant return policy is long gone.

 

[Vario]

Umm, I understand the reasons for seeking advice.

Who said anything about $500 motherboards or refundable returns?

Nothing in your post had anything to do with my post - which you quoted. And for the record, the OP lives in the US.

Vario indicated in his first post that he is considering upgrading the CPU, motherboard and RAM "simultaneously". I am saying that is wise. Don't do it piecemeal and don't bother waiting for something coming just around the corner if you are ready to buy today. That philosophy gets you always waiting, or always causing doubt about not waiting.

With IT being industries within industries, each constantly pushing the state-of-the-art but none doing so at the same time, playing the waiting game almost always is a losing game or one that instills doubt - with the exception of waiting until the budget allows you to get everything at once.

FTR, piecemeal is bad for several reasons - besides something new just around the corner. Waiting to get the motherboard, for example, helps ensure the latest BIOS firmware is already installed. Another good reason is the warranty period begins on the date of purchase - as does any "no questions asked" return policy. If you buy piecemeal over several months, you may not discover something is DOA until the warranty is half over and the merchant return policy is long gone.

That is a good point. I am considering the 12700K +DDR5 for this reason, fully mature Z690. However, it is likely the performance on Zen 4 and 13700K will be substantial. Either way, DDR5 based setups are launching very soon so having decent DDR5 on hand for $100 off is reasonable I think, given how shortage prone ram can be. If it ends up being DOA ram, because I do not have a DDR5 system on hand to test at this time, I can use the Gskill lifetime warranty.

 

[Arco]

I don't believe in waiting - except to wait until you have built up your savings so you can go all in at once. That is, never buy piecemeal.

The problem with waiting for something that is just around the corner is there is ALWAYS something better just around the corner.

If you can wait, why are you considering buying now? If you need something now, then buy it now. If not, then wait until you are ready to pull the trigger and buy everything now - and don't worry about what's around the corner.

Beside, regardless what you buy today, as soon as you get it home and setup just the way you want it - something newer, better, faster, shinier will be sitting just around the corner ready to soon make your new hardware totally obsolete and last week.

Haha, yep. But with 7000 and 13th coming in a few months I don't mind waiting. Definity going to buy things when seasonal sales occur!

 

[cvaldes]

Vario indicated in his first post that he is considering upgrading the CPU, motherboard and RAM "simultaneously". I am saying that is wise. Don't do it piecemeal and don't bother waiting for something coming just around the corner if you are ready to buy today. That philosophy gets you always waiting, or always causing doubt about not waiting.

Some people like to think things aloud. That occasionally spills onto the Internet with increasing regularity. Whether or not OP is going to pull out his credit card today or in two months isn't something I know.

The way he rambles on, it sounds like he is just mulling over various possibilities and hoping to see if anyone makes a comment that will get him to act immediately. After all, there's no rush as he owns at least one other functional system.

Some people aren't inherently decisive and it's nearly impossible to change those tendencies in adults unless they are motivated to do so from within. Perhaps you have never met any of those people but I assure you that they exist.

As for the simultaneous CPU/motherboard/RAM purchase, that's a given based on the switch from older hardware. He doesn't have a choice regardless of whether it's wise or not if he wants a performance boost.

 

[Bill_Bright]

If it ends up being DOA ram

Well, the good news about RAM - even new technology RAM, is it tends to very reliable, even when abused. In fact, you have to hunt around to find RAM that is not warranted to life.

coming in a few months I don't mind waiting.

Definitely don't mind waiting either - unless I am waiting for a replacement to fix a broken computer - then I want it yesterday!

 

[Arco]

Definitely don't mind waiting either - unless I am waiting for a replacement to fix a broken computer - then I want it yesterday!

This gen looks to be pretty awesome. Not holding out on this one. RN "I" have a GTX 1060 3GB + I5-7400 Rig.

 

[Vario]

Well, the good news about RAM - even new technology RAM, is it tends to very reliable, even when abused. In fact, you have to hunt around to find RAM that is not warranted to life.


Definitely don't mind waiting either - unless I am waiting for a replacement to fix a broken computer - then I want it yesterday!

Last PC I built had defective G Skill B die kit, returned it for a G Skill Hynix kit, so it is possible.

Some people like to think things aloud. That occasionally spills onto the Internet with increasing regularity. Whether or not OP is going to pull out his credit card today or in two months isn't something I know.

The way he rambles on, it sounds like he is just mulling over various possibilities and hoping to see if anyone makes a comment that will get him to act immediately. After all, there's no rush as he owns at least one other functional system.

Some people aren't inherently decisive and it's nearly impossible to change those tendencies in adults unless they are motivated to do so from within. Perhaps you have never met any of those people but I assure you that they exist.

As for the simultaneous CPU/motherboard/RAM purchase, that's a given based on the switch from older hardware. He doesn't have a choice regardless of whether it's wise or not if he wants a performance boost.

Well, the thread was helpful in the sense that I am waiting for coming generation, so I am delaying my purchase a month. I was originally considering buying the current offering. I was very out of the loop with 5800 series and 12000 series, and DDR4 vs DDR5 comparison. Stuff is expensive, but overall waiting makes sense because either the 12700 comes down in price and I buy the matured Z690 ecosystem, or the Ryzen 4 release is fantastic and I go with that. I also do have a tendency to mull. The purchase is going to occur soon (in weeks or months) because the system in question is really unreliable (increasing frequency of BSOD) and needs to be replaced.

 

[Bill_Bright]

so it is possible.

Well, of course its possible. Until Man can create perfection 100% of the time, there will always be units that are DOA or fail prematurely - even the best models from the best makers.

My point was made in reference to buying the components piecemeal, bit by bit, over several months - where the "limited" warranty clocks start ticking on the date of purchase, not the date you finally put it all together.

At least with RAM, since most have "lifetime" warranties, while you may lose your window to return the RAM "no questions asked" to the retailer, you can still get warranty support from the manufacturer - even if a year or more has passed.

 

[Arco]

Well, of course its possible. Until Man can create perfection 100% of the time, there will always be units that are DOA or fail prematurely - even the best models from the best makers.

My point was made in reference to buying the components piecemeal, bit by bit, over several months - where the "limited" warranty clocks start ticking on the date of purchase, not the date you finally put it all together.

At least with RAM, since most have "lifetime" warranties, while you may lose your window to return the RAM "no questions asked" to the retailer, you can still get warranty support from the manufacturer - even if a year or more has passed.

Personally, I would only buy components early that you have dead set on. Also, a sale going on is a perfect time to buy if it occurs a few months before the build. Buying them staggered isn't the best as it closes your options.

 

[maxfly]

If you can get a set of gskill ddr5 6000 for $190 do it. I doubt you will see a deal like that again next year...

 

[RandallFlagg]

Microcenter Open Box.

Like the guy above said, I have inclination to think yes buy it regardless of what platform you'll use it on. That is almost certainly an SK Hynix chip DDR5 kit.

However, you can also get PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36 from Best Buy for $225, and it's not open box. Based on the XMP memory primary timings, this is 99% sure to be SK Hynix DDR5 also.

On DDR5, at this point in time, there are 3 major manufacturers of DDR5 and as a general rule you can tell where they land by the max speed and timing.

This may change if there are new major revisions to DDR5 with the new CPU releases, but I seriously doubt that. There are so many AIBs for RAM that if better DDR5 chips were available, they'd be releasing it, all the AIBs can do is fart around with the XMP / EXPO timings on the same chips.

4800-5200 Micron, lowest tier. All Micron can do 5200.
5600-6000 Samsung, middle tier. Samsung can do 6200, but when they do they'll be CL40+. You *will* see some of these usually at CL42.
6000-6600 SK Hynix. This is the best right now. It effectively holds the status that Samsung B-Die holds with DDR4, for now.

At DDR5-6000 you can usually tell that its SK Hynix because the XMP primary timing is 36-36-36-XX or better.

There is of course more minutia and detail to this, like chip revision, however the above is I think a good quick and easy guide to breaking down memory tiers for DDR5.

 

[Vario]

Like the guy above said, I have inclination to think yes buy it regardless of what platform you'll use it on. That is almost certainly an SK Hynix chip DDR5 kit.

However, you can also get PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36 from Best Buy for $225, and it's not open box. Based on the XMP memory primary timings, this is 99% sure to be SK Hynix DDR5 also.

On DDR5, at this point in time, there are 3 major manufacturers of DDR5 and as a general rule you can tell where they land by the max speed and timing.

This may change if there are new major revisions to DDR5 with the new CPU releases, but I seriously doubt that. There are so many AIBs for RAM that if better DDR5 chips were available, they'd be releasing it, all the AIBs can do is fart around with the XMP / EXPO timings on the same chips.

4800-5200 Micron, lowest tier. All Micron can do 5200.
5600-6000 Samsung, middle tier. Samsung can do 6200, but when they do they'll be CL40+. You *will* see some of these usually at CL42.
6000-6600 SK Hynix. This is the best right now. It effectively holds the status that Samsung B-Die holds with DDR4, for now.

At DDR5-6000 you can usually tell that its SK Hynix because the XMP primary timing is 36-36-36-XX or better.

There is of course more minutia and detail to this, like chip revision, however the above is I think a good quick and easy guide to breaking down memory tiers for DDR5.

I bought it. I haven't removed the heatspreaders, however from reading I am pretty sure it is Samsung K4RAH086VB-BCQK.

G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB DDR5-6000 C36 Review: DDR5 Performance King

Trident Z5 is raising the bar once again

www.tomshardware.com

They revised this model from 6000 36-36-36-76 to 36-36-36-96, with the model change from E16 to F16, but I am fairly certain it is still Samsung with relaxed timings to improve compatibility. I won't know until I put it in a machine.

 

[RandallFlagg]

I bought it. I haven't removed the heatspreaders, however from reading I am pretty sure it is Samsung K4RAH086VB-BCQK.

G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB DDR5-6000 C36 Review: DDR5 Performance King

Trident Z5 is raising the bar once again

www.tomshardware.com

They revised this model from 6000 36-36-36-76 to 36-36-36-96, with the model change from E16 to F16, but I am fairly certain it is still Samsung with relaxed timings to improve compatibility. I won't know until I put it in a machine.

Yep you are right.

SK Hynix is 36-36-36-76 on almost all the DDR5-6000, they probably couldn't hold those timings with Samsung and relaxed them. Will be interesting to see what pans out, the review indicates it's the best Samsung chip out at the time. It's still a good deal at $190 but Hynix would have been better for a tuner.

 

[Vario]

Yep you are right.

SK Hynix is 36-36-36-76 on almost all the DDR5-6000, they probably couldn't hold those timings with Samsung and relaxed them. Will be interesting to see what pans out, the review indicates it's the best Samsung chip out at the time. It's still a good deal at $190 but Hynix would have been better for a tuner.

Interesting, well here is a review for that PNY model, looks like a good kit and Hynix like you said. Either way, assuming the Gskill I bought works, I will have no regret at that price. https://www.tech-critter.com/review-pny-xlr8-gaming-mako-ddr5-6000mhz/

 

[RandallFlagg]

Interesting, well here is a review for that PNY model, looks like a good kit and Hynix like you said. Either way, assuming the Gskill I bought works, I will have no regret at that price. https://www.tech-critter.com/review-pny-xlr8-gaming-mako-ddr5-6000mhz/

After thinking about it I went ahead and ordered the PNY kit. I'm slowly acquiring stuff for an upgrade, new case new WD SN770 SSD and now new memory.

I have a suspicion that DDR5 price may spike and availability plummet over the next few months for obvious reasons, could be wrong but I already saw a few deals pop up and fade within days - maybe from like-minded folks buying.

 

[Vario]

After thinking about it I went ahead and ordered the PNY kit. I'm slowly acquiring stuff for an upgrade, new case new WD SN770 SSD and now new memory.

I have a suspicion that DDR5 price may spike and availability plummet over the next few months for obvious reasons, could be wrong but I already saw a few deals pop up and fade within days - maybe from like-minded folks buying.

I agree, the way hardware has been, you buy it when it is available.

 

[tussinman]

It is Microcenter's usual loss leader product + it is an open box kit, usually that combination can bring some pretty incredible pricing. They have lifetime warranty on Gskill so I'll probably buy it and hold it for the rest of the system in a month or two.

Microcenter has some crazy open box deals. I went Tuesday to look around (looking at AM5 or LGA 1700 in the next month or 2) and for a combined $315 dollars they had an open box 12400, H670 motherboard, and 2x16GB DDR4. I thought it was a joke at first, the motherboard alone retailed for $220

I was planning on getting a 7600X but I might just go back next week and snag all 3 parts for the same price as the 7600X (can then later get an i7 13700 when microcenter slashes the prior gen i7s down to sub $250).

 

[RandallFlagg]

Microcenter has some crazy open box deals. I went Tuesday to look around (looking at AM5 or LGA 1700 in the next month or 2) and for a combined $315 dollars they had an open box 12400, H670 motherboard, and 2x16GB DDR4. I thought it was a joke at first, the motherboard alone retailed for $220

I was planning on getting a 7600X but I might just go back next week and snag all 3 parts for the same price as the 7600X (can then later get an i7 13700 when microcenter slashes the prior gen i7s down to sub $250).

I keep thinking about buying that EVGA Classified @$299 and then getting an Alder Lake celeron from newegg for $40 so I can have my rig all set up and ready

 

[Vario]

I keep thinking about buying that EVGA Classified @$299 and then getting an Alder Lake celeron from newegg for $40 so I can have my rig all set up and ready

There is also this ram kit, a good value https://www.newegg.com/corsair-32gb...m_mmc=snc-social-_-sr-_-20-236-828-_-09022022
CORSAIR Vengeance 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 5600 (PC5 44800) Intel XMP 3.0 Desktop Memory Model CMK32GX5M2B5600C36

• $229.99
• $169.99
• + $3 off w/ promo code LDYBW2223, limited offer
• Save: $60.00 (26%)

36-36-36-76 1.25V. From google, might be Samsung ICs. (https://www.overclock.net/threads/o...memory-stability-thread.1794772/post-28931259)

Or this Kingston Fury 6400 CL32, buy two = $241.

Kingston FURY Renegade DDR5 RGB Memory | Speeds up to 7200MT/s – Kingston Technology

Upgrade your gaming and computing performance with Kingston FURY Renegade DDR5 RGB Memory. Shop now for speeds up to 7200MT/s and capacities up to 32GB. DDR5 technology with on-die ECC and dual 32-bit subchannels enhances stability and efficiency. Shop at Kingston today!

shop.kingston.com

Last Kingston kit I had in the DDR3 era was unstable crap though.

 

[RandallFlagg]

There is also this ram kit, a good value https://www.newegg.com/corsair-32gb...m_mmc=snc-social-_-sr-_-20-236-828-_-09022022
CORSAIR Vengeance 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 5600 (PC5 44800) Intel XMP 3.0 Desktop Memory Model CMK32GX5M2B5600C36

• $229.99
• $169.99
• + $3 off w/ promo code LDYBW2223, limited offer
• Save: $60.00 (26%)

36-36-36-76 1.25V. From google, might be Samsung ICs. (https://www.overclock.net/threads/o...memory-stability-thread.1794772/post-28931259)

Or this Kingston Fury 6400 CL32, buy two = $241.

Kingston FURY Renegade DDR5 RGB Memory | Speeds up to 7200MT/s – Kingston Technology

Upgrade your gaming and computing performance with Kingston FURY Renegade DDR5 RGB Memory. Shop now for speeds up to 7200MT/s and capacities up to 32GB. DDR5 technology with on-die ECC and dual 32-bit subchannels enhances stability and efficiency. Shop at Kingston today!

shop.kingston.com

Last Kingston kit I had in the DDR3 era was unstable crap though.

Yep that was Corsair on my MC shopping list until they sold out Overall probably the best priced DDR5 going right now.


If I had seen that Kingston kit, would have gotten that one. Oh well, at least I know I'm getting SK Hynix, can go from there.

 

[Why_Me]

Right now, I am running the following system: i5 8600K, Z370 Taichi, 2x970 Evo Plus 2TB, and 2x8GB G.Skill 3200C14 Bdie ram. The videocard is a 3060 12GB.

My system has been getting increasingly flaky for the past couple months, was having issues with PCI express lanes not working, one of my M.2 slots isn't stable. I am pretty sure it is the Z370 Taichi motherboard to blame, as I have tested the hardware on another Z370 based system I own.

I think it is probably time to upgrade soon to something newer with more cores. I mostly use this system for gaming, I primarily play just two games:
1. FiveM - very poorly coded GTA V multiplayer mod, needs fast single thread and lots of cores. I also do some dev stuff and its helpful to run multiple game clients.
2. Space Engineers - needs fast single thread

I also occasionally do some video editing/compiling. Those jobs take a long time on my 6 core 6 thread 8600K.

I was considering also simultaneously upgrading ram to 32GB, so it probably would make sense to do DDR5. The options I was looking at was probably the soon to be released Ryzen 7000X series, or doing a 12700K. The 12700K at $350 from Microcenter is fairly tempting. It seems to do most things reasonably well. The 5800X3D lacks DDR5 support and is $80 more than the 12700K (Microcenter pricing).

Not sure about the motherboard either, I am partial to ASRock, could also do MSI or Asus. I've had some bad experiences with Gigabyte. I'm not a fan boy of any brand, just had good experiences so far with ASRock, with exception of this Taichi.

Any thoughts?

B660 board if you don't plan on running more than one M.2 SSD, Z690 board if you plan on running two M.2 SSD's due to the extra PCIe lanes.

https://www.amazon.com/MSI-Mortar-Gaming-Motherboard-Socket/dp/B09PX736J8/
MSI MAG B660M Mortar WiFi $179.99

https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-B660M-MORTAR-WIFI

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09J1SD9J2
ASUS Prime Z690-A $269.99

PRIME Z690-A｜Motherboards｜ASUS Global

ASUS Prime Z690-A Intel® Z690 (LGA 1700) ATX motherboard features PCIe® 5.0, four M.2 slots, DDR5, USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 Type-C®, front USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-C®, Thunderbolt™ 4 support and Intel 2.5 Gb Ethernet. In addition, it also features AI Overclocking, AI Cooling and Two-Way AI Noise Cancelation...

www.asus.com

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09PX5WHMB
MSI MAG Z690 Tomahawk WiFi $274.99

MAG Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI

Powered by Intel 12th Gen Core processors, the MSI MAG Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI is hardened with performance essential specifications to outlast enemies. Tuned for better performance by Core boost, Memory Boost, Premium Thermal Solution, M.2 Shield Frozr,

www.msi.com

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NCNF2ZQ
CORSAIR Vengeance DDR5 5600 32GB (2x16GB) CL36 $169.99

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NPJDPVG
Intel Core i7-12700F $312.96

Intel® Core™ i7-12700F Processor (25M Cache, up to 4.90 GHz) - Product Specifications | Intel

Intel® Core™ i7-12700F Processor (25M Cache, up to 4.90 GHz) quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.

www.intel.com

Intel Core i7-12700 + Intel B660 Review

Today we have a combo review of all-new Intel hardware, our first look at the affordable Intel B660 platform, the non-K Core i7-12700 and Intel's latest box...

www.techspot.com

i7 12700 / 12700F gaming benchmarks.

 

[nguyen]

MSI MAG B660 Morta DDR4 + 12700F would be my choice too, that board has bclk overclocking if OP is interested in overclocking

For RAM maybe buy another 2x8GB G.skill 3200c14 kit, I bought 2 separate kits of 2x8GB G.skill 3600c16 and they work just fine on my Z270 board.