Dell is back to their old tricks. This is why I hate Dell!

[natr0n]

How proprietshitty of them.

 

[Depth]

It isn't so much about upgrading the machine, it is about repairing it when the power supply fails. It isn't too much to expect that they use a standard easily replacable part.

Well, you could always get a new PSU, cut and solder the wires directly to the board, then glue the unit to the case.

 

[newtekie1]

Well, you could always get a new PSU, cut and solder the wires directly to the board, then glue the unit to the case.

Yep, that's definitely a practical solution!

 

[Batou1986]

just when Microcenter started carrying psu's that fit in slimlines they start with this BS

 

[qubit]

I recommended the client sent the piece of shit back.

+1 This looks like the worst Dell I've ever seen. Low quality, totally proprietary and deliberately impossible to upgrade.

A piece of shit indeed.

 

[shovenose]

Not sure what you are all flipping out about.

Dells are some of the most reliable OEM PCs especially the Optiplex series. It's the HPs, even the "business class" ones that have bizarre issues and have such crappy BIOS that even one CPU model higher "Microcode error" and the updates on their website barely ever work?

Additionally, OEM power supplies, especially Dell, are miles better than the cheap power supplies most custom built low cost computers use. Sure, it's no Seasonic, and their capacitor choices are usually mediocre at best, but I'd rather have a 290W Dell PSU with Teapo capacitors than a "680W" $10 PSU which most custom built cheap computers are built with.

RAM slots? You're really complaining about that? 16GB could go in there, and the target customers for this computer is NOT even going to use more than 4GB even with the latest 64-bit Win8 Pro OS.

And whoever above said that it doesn't matter if it's proprietary because most companies buy dozens, hundreds, or thousands of these computers have the on site support contracts, is spot on.

Source: I work almost full time at a local computer refurbisher/repair shop/ewaste recycling place.

 

[Blue-Knight]

itely a practical s

Please, add Lenovo, HP, Toshiba, Samsung to that list.

There may be more which I can't remember now... Happy New Year!

 

[Nordic]

Laptops failure rates but related.

Source

 

[newtekie1]

Not sure what you are all flipping out about.

Dells are some of the most reliable OEM PCs especially the Optiplex series. It's the HPs, even the "business class" ones that have bizarre issues and have such crappy BIOS that even one CPU model higher "Microcode error" and the updates on their website barely ever work?

I've had my fair share of issues with Dell's BIOSes. Like BIOSes that support a processor, but not the exact same processor but one stepping higher. Dell tends to never update their CPU support in the BIOS after they release the PC, never updating CPU support for the PC. They do this on purpose to try to force people to buy new computers instead of upgrading.

Additionally, OEM power supplies, especially Dell, are miles better than the cheap power supplies most custom built low cost computers use. Sure, it's no Seasonic, and their capacitor choices are usually mediocre at best, but I'd rather have a 290W Dell PSU with Teapo capacitors than a "680W" $10 PSU which most custom built cheap computers are built with.

There was a time when Dell power supplies were really good, but Dell has also put out some really bad power supplies. They used to really underrate their power supplies, but the power supply in this machine is not one of the good units. It isn't even 80+ Standard efficient. Yes, it probably is better than the garbage $10 units, but not by much, and certainly not what I would put in any of my custom builds. I won't put anything below 80+ Bronze in anything I custom build for a client.

RAM slots? You're really complaining about that? 16GB could go in there, and the target customers for this computer is NOT even going to use more than 4GB even with the latest 64-bit Win8 Pro OS.

The RAM slots are not a deal breaker, and not why I started this topic. Only having 2 is mildly annoying, but not something I would really fret about.

And whoever above said that it doesn't matter if it's proprietary because most companies buy dozens, hundreds, or thousands of these computers have the on site support contracts, is spot on.

That's fine, but there are a lot of small business buying these too that don't have support contracts with Dell. It certainly does matter that it is proprietary. Don't assume only large corporations buy these, because that is way off.

Source: I work almost full time at a local computer refurbisher/repair shop/ewaste recycling place.

Source: I own a computer repair/support company servicing mostly small businesses, replacing 3-5 dead Dell power supplies a week.

 

[shovenose]

Just because they didn't waste money on the 80Plus certification doesn't mean it isn't efficient.
Why don't you take apart a modern DELL power supply and post some pics? Then the community can be a judge of the quality of the supply.

Who cares if it's not conservatively rated? That 290W PSU is more than enough for a PC that's never even going to consume more than 100W in typical usage they just can't put something that low in there because somebody will bitch about it in a public forum.

By the way: 3-5 Dell power supplies a week? You're leaving out the important numbers: How many Dells? How many HP PSUs are failing vs how many HPs you manage? You're leaving out 90% of the relevant information and forming conclusions based on incorrect data.

 

[Norton]

It's all about cost, compliance, and bonuses- If a company can design something that saves them $10-20-50-100 per unit while maintaining certain established benchmarks and whatever regulatory compliance is applicable... they make more money/larger percentage of profit per unit and someone gets a fat bonus check.

Here's some info on that model:
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/corporate/environ/comply/opti_3020_sff_d08s001.pdf

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I was hoping that would say what form factor that was (clearly not ATX) but alas, it does not. It does say the PSU is 80 Plus certified though.

 

[Solaris17]

I service alot of dells. Their caps are pretty horrid. The company they use has been the same since the early 2000s and I can say pretty much 90% of the dells I get have bad caps on the board. I cant say the PSUs have the same since im

A: uncertain what brand of caps are used and

B: since most dont seem to be made by dell


but at the end of the say its still on my bench


and I handle all types of PCs im not small business limited.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

I'm not getting it here. Neither side of this conversation seems grounded in reality.

Dell designing their own power connectors is not unexpected. They have two things to gain here, customer dependence and more control over their products. The dependence means control over replacement parts, and no need to deal with warranty claims if people replaced components in their PC with cheap knock-offs. The more interesting point is that Dell gets control over the products. They can set more aggressive standards for how power is delivered, and make trouble shooting the components easier (by integrating more components).

From a consumer and technician side, both of these goals mean no upgrades. While not a great compromise for all, the compromise is made because the primary customers (large companies buying multi-year service contracts on hardware) don't focus on continued life. This is exactly like the division of processors at Intel. There are plenty of reasons that the 2011 socket and 1155 socket both existed; it sucked that a 3700k wouldn't be a direct competitor to the 4820, but the differences were acceptable because price is an object to most people. People who hated multiple sockets could always go to AMD, though that jump had its own compromises.


I guess what I'm saying is the problem here isn't Dell. The real problem is that somebody bought a Dell, thinking they were buying a higher end system. Dell doesn't produce a lot of high end systems, they produce products focused on running for a set amount of time with minimum effort. Once that time is exceeded they could care less, because the bulk of their customer base has already shelled out for replacement hardware and a new service contract. While the business model isn't for everyone, it's the consumers lack of information that is the real problem.

 

[newtekie1]

Just because they didn't waste money on the 80Plus certification doesn't mean it isn't efficient.

Actually, it does. They offer an 80+ Certified option, this PSU is not it.

Why don't you take apart a modern DELL power supply and post some pics? Then the community can be a judge of the quality of the supply.

I don't need to, I've replaced enough of them to know they have been using pretty poor quality units for some time now. This unit is no different, if it was of decent quality it would at least be 80+. Granted, at least it has ActivePFC, but I still don't expect it to last 10 years.

Who cares if it's not conservatively rated? That 290W PSU is more than enough for a PC that's never even going to consume more than 100W in typical usage they just can't put something that low in there because somebody will bitch about it in a public forum.

You missed my point entirely. My point was their old "good" units used to be overrated, they don't do that now, and this unit isn't a good unit.

By the way: 3-5 Dell power supplies a week? You're leaving out the important numbers: How many Dells? How many HP PSUs are failing vs how many HPs you manage? You're leaving out 90% of the relevant information and forming conclusions based on incorrect data.

None of those numbers matter, the point is that PSUs will no longer be easily replaceable with readily available parts. I'm not comparing quality to HP, I'm concerned with Dell using proprietary parts. HP PSUs can be replaced with standard PSUs, so I don't really care, and their failure rates don't apply to this thread.

I was hoping that would say what form factor that was (clearly not ATX) but alas, it does not. It does say the PSU is 80 Plus certified though.

The 80+ unit is optional, not standard. The unit in this machine is not one of the 80+ units offered.

Also, I'd like to point out the irony of the product page when they say "Help reduce maintenance time and cost"... Yeah, because having to buy an overpriced proprietary PSU and wait for it to ship to me is definitely reducing the time and cost compared to just pulling one off the shelf and slapping it in...

I'm not getting it here. Neither side of this conversation seems grounded in reality.

Dell designing their own power connectors is not unexpected. They have two things to gain here, customer dependence and more control over their products. The dependence means control over replacement parts, and no need to deal with warranty claims if people replaced components in their PC with cheap knock-offs. The more interesting point is that Dell gets control over the products. They can set more aggressive standards for how power is delivered, and make trouble shooting the components easier (by integrating more components).

From a consumer and technician side, both of these goals mean no upgrades. While not a great compromise for all, the compromise is made because the primary customers (large companies buying multi-year service contracts on hardware) don't focus on continued life. This is exactly like the division of processors at Intel. There are plenty of reasons that the 2011 socket and 1155 socket both existed; it sucked that a 3700k wouldn't be a direct competitor to the 4820, but the differences were acceptable because price is an object to most people. People who hated multiple sockets could always go to AMD, though that jump had its own compromises.


I guess what I'm saying is the problem here isn't Dell. The real problem is that somebody bought a Dell, thinking they were buying a higher end system. Dell doesn't produce a lot of high end systems, they produce products focused on running for a set amount of time with minimum effort. Once that time is exceeded they could care less, because the bulk of their customer base has already shelled out for replacement hardware and a new service contract. While the business model isn't for everyone, it's the consumers lack of information that is the real problem.

You're still trying to see the argument as an issue with upgrades. Upgrading the PC really has nothing to do with why I have a problem with this. Fixing the PC when the power supply dies several years down the road is the issue.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

You're still trying to see the argument as an issue with upgrades. Upgrading the PC really has nothing to do with why I have a problem with this. Fixing the PC when the power supply dies several years down the road is the issue.

You are still looking at this from one point of view. Upgrades and replacements are the same thing to Dell, once the warranty runs out. Both of them are replacing a stock part with something new. That isn't a reasonable thing for Dell internally.

Dell is driven to produce a product that lasts x number of years, before failing. That x is either equal to, or long than, the warranty period that they offer. If you buy an $800 PC, with $650 in parts you are expected to be paying $150 for the warranty service. Dell could theoretically provide you with two power supplies, assuming their cost was low, and still make money off of the $150 for the service contract. If you shave 25% off of the cost of the PSU, but only increase replacements of the PSUs (under warranty) by 20% you've made money. Dell doesn't give a crap about long term solutions, because that isn't what they are selling.

If I were to go out and buy an $800 dollar PC without any warranty I'd demand quality interchangeable parts be used (so that I could service the computer myself). That makes perfect sense, as I'd be taking maintenance and upkeep responsibilities onto myself. Dell has targeted a completely different consumer. These consumers need reliability, or an absolute minimum of down-time. These consumers pay more, so that any problems which arise will be dealt with.


In short, imagine a triangle. At the intersection point you've got excellent service, low cost, and extended usage. Dell focuses on the low cost and excellent service, while ignoring the long life. Customized PCs and boutique dealers focus on excellent service and extended life. Building your own PC allows for low costs and extended usage. You can only have two of the three at most, and Dell just isn't designing systems to run for a decade. I'm not sure why this is a point of contention. As a tech, becoming angry because a customer bought a Dell and thought it would last a decade is counter productive. Consumers need to educate themselves better, because Dell doesn't hide the fact that their systems have a very finite lifetime calculated into their construction.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Actually, it does. They offer an 80+ Certified option, this PSU is not it.



I don't need to, I've replaced enough of them to know they have been using pretty poor quality units for some time now. This unit is no different, if it was of decent quality it would at least be 80+. Granted, at least it has ActivePFC, but I still don't expect it to last 10 years.



You missed my point entirely. My point was their old "good" units used to be overrated, they don't do that now, and this unit isn't a good unit.



None of those numbers matter, the point is that PSUs will no longer be easily replaceable with readily available parts. I'm not comparing quality to HP, I'm concerned with Dell using proprietary parts. HP PSUs can be replaced with standard PSUs, so I don't really care, and their failure rates don't apply to this thread.



The 80+ unit is optional, not standard. The unit in this machine is not one of the 80+ units offered.

Also, I'd like to point out the irony of the product page when they say "Help reduce maintenance time and cost"... Yeah, because having to buy an overpriced proprietary PSU and wait for it to ship to me is definitely reducing the time and cost compared to just pulling one off the shelf and slapping it in...



You're still trying to see the argument as an issue with upgrades. Upgrading the PC really has nothing to do with why I have a problem with this. Fixing the PC when the power supply dies several years down the road is the issue.

I one took out and used a really nice 750watt Dell N750p psu, came out of a xps 720 one of the ones with the big metal case, it was a good psu and is still been used today.

 

[Mindweaver]

Hardly.

I don't see why that's so hard to believe buddy. I worked for a very large company for 13 years that only used Dell with Gold Support (I left the company because I was tired of traveling and relocating). Now I'm the CIO of 2 smaller companies for the past 7 years, and I don't use Dell or any other company like Dell. Not because they are bad, but just not cost effective for our business model. I have everything done in house.

I'm still friends with their current CIO, and they still use Dell with Gold support. The last mother board I replaced on one of the Dells there was a Optiplex GX280 and it only took me 5 minutes to swap it out. That's power down install and power up and ready to use. I can't advise any small companies or personal use to have Gold support, but I can say if you have gold support then you really have not worries with there proprietary parts. The service center was about 30 minutes away. I could call the service ticket in and they would hand deliver the parts the same day. They would either replace it or if I had time I would have them leave the part (Because I enjoy replace it myself as well). I'm sure someone will disagree, but I'm just sharing my experience.

 

[DaveK]

Wow, every single PC I've EVER worked on, from 10 year old beige generic PCs, AGP Alienwares to everything in between has had 4 RAM slots, even every DDR1 machine I worked on. I worked in a PC repair shop for 2 months, I hated Dell the most. Even on their more modern machines like a Vostro the HDDs are screwed to the side of the case. Welcome to every single Dell EVER. POS shit PSU, although this propriety one takes the piss. Sure you don't need to put a more powerful one in, but at the very least putting a more reliable one in makes sense. Especially in a business environment when long hours and reliability are needed.

Propritery costs money. Not only that, they seem to change their shit every few years. Just stick to normal shit FFS. Having said that, my 230w Dell PSU still works after like 7 years. I use it as a back up. The cables, of course, are short as balls because it's ONLY meant for their shitty ass boards.

 

[qubit]

Wow, every single PC I've EVER worked on, from 10 year old beige generic PCs, AGP Alienwares to everything in between has had 4 RAM slots, even every DDR1 machine I worked on. I worked in a PC repair shop for 2 months, I hated Dell the most. Even on their more modern machines like a Vostro the HDDs are screwed to the side of the case. Welcome to every single Dell EVER. POS shit PSU, although this propriety one takes the piss. Sure you don't need to put a more powerful one in, but at the very least putting a more reliable one in makes sense. Especially in a business environment when long hours and reliability are needed.

Propritery costs money. Not only that, they seem to change their shit every few years. Just stick to normal shit FFS. Having said that, my 230w Dell PSU still works after like 7 years. I use it as a back up. The cables, of course, are short as balls because it's ONLY meant for their shitty ass boards.

No, unfortunately not every mobo had 4 memory slots and I'm talking about decent ones, too.

Back in 2003 in the AMD socket A days many enthusiast boards came with only three memory slots, such as the excellent Abit AN7. I didn't like it either. Check out this review to see this: http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/mainboard/681-abit-an7/?page=3

I agree that the cheap construction of modern Dell PCs and their deliberate proprietary lockins are bad. HP does the same thing unfortunately however, but at least with better build quality.

 

[newtekie1]

I don't see why that's so hard to believe buddy. I worked for a very large company for 13 years that only used Dell with Gold Support (I left the company because I was tired of traveling and relocating). Now I'm the CIO of 2 smaller companies for the past 7 years, and I don't use Dell or any other company like Dell. Not because they are bad, but just not cost effective for our business model. I have everything done in house.

I'm still friends with their current CIO, and they still use Dell with Gold support. The last mother board I replaced on one of the Dells there was a Optiplex GX280 and it only took me 5 minutes to swap it out. That's power down install and power up and ready to use. I can't advise any small companies or personal use to have Gold support, but I can say if you have gold support then you really have not worries with there proprietary parts. The service center was about 30 minutes away. I could call the service ticket in and they would hand deliver the parts the same day. They would either replace it or if I had time I would have them leave the part (Because I enjoy replace it myself as well). I'm sure someone will disagree, but I'm just sharing my experience.

So because you work for one large company that has gold support, all companies that buy Dell must have it as well. Get real. There are far more small business in this country than large corporations, and small business don't have support contracts with Dell.

You are still looking at this from one point of view. Upgrades and replacements are the same thing to Dell, once the warranty runs out. Both of them are replacing a stock part with something new. That isn't a reasonable thing for Dell internally.

Of course it isn't, I see Dell's side, allowing the part to be replaced is a new PC sale lost. That's why they do it, and that is why it pisses me off.

 

[Mindweaver]

So because you work for one large company that has gold support, all companies that buy Dell must have it as well. Get real. There are far more small business in this country than large corporations, and small business don't have support contracts with Dell.

Wow, so touchy.. lol I think it's funny how you twist my words.. and I never said "all", I said most that only buy Dell use their support. I care not to argue with you, the matter doesn't really spark my interest enough to argue over. Like I said I was just sharing my experience (you act as if I don't know anyone out side of the companies I've worked for... you keep beating your drum someone will listen). I also, agreed with you on smaller companies, but there again you are only looking at what you want to see of what I said. Just remember jealousy will rot your heart out buddy.

 

[Black.Raven]

I've seen HP PC's being even worse. It had a dc jack on the motherboard and a power adapter When it blows, you probably need to order a original psu from them. in other words: expensive

 

[Blue-Knight]

you probably need to order a original psu from them.

Ah, now you understand their strategy. I wouldn't support any company that does such thing...

 

[Frick]

Ah, now you understand their strategy. I wouldn't support any company that does such thing...

Then you should probably get off the internet.