Do ALL sound cards have RAM?

[Electric]

If you find Xram useful on a core 2 system then by all means enjoy your Gamer FPS.....

 

[Mussels]

I have tested all the X-Fi cards......I don't need reviews to show that X-Ram has no effect.... I have played Crysis with a Xtreme Music and with a Gamer FPS(Core 2 PC)....Maybe the FPS gives 2FPS improvement thats all....For the price the FPS is tagged with going from Xtreme Music to FPS just to gain 2 FPS is a complete waste of $! Why a P4 system will benefit? Core 2s Processing cycle is a lot advance than the P4, it even has a better cache(Which games takes advantage)..Playing on a P4 with Gamer FPS will give you ~6 FPS improvement......

EDIT=Quality wise all X-Fi cards excluding the Xtreme Audio and Elite Pro are the same.......

he isnt talking about fps. he IS talking about quality, and does crysis even use EAX? dunno about you, but even with HD audio lots of games (especially older EAX titles with EAX off) give distorted audio, or drop sounds entirely when the action gets going. X-ram with EAX titles allows more sound at once, which is a boost if you use surround sound - not for FPS, or for ALL games.

I dont care about it, because i use vista. I'd need creative alchemy and various other things, and i just cant be stuffed.

 

[Electric]

he isnt talking about fps. he IS talking about quality, and does crysis even use EAX? dunno about you, but even with HD audio lots of games (especially older EAX titles with EAX off) give distorted audio, or drop sounds entirely when the action gets going. X-ram with EAX titles allows more sound at once, which is a boost if you use surround sound - not for FPS, or for ALL games.

I dont care about it, because i use vista. I'd need creative alchemy and various other things, and i just cant be stuffed.

No having X-Ram wont increase the quality of the audio....having 2 or 3mb Ram is more than enough to process audio.....Having X-Ram will only benefit in games.....That too is not effective when you run games on a core2!....Wont believe me..put a gamer and gamer FPS together and see!

EDIT=X-Ram is not hi performance ram!

 

[btarunr]

The part where you talk about "core2" is crap. What is Core 2 anyway? It's just a multi-core processor. A processor that can that can handle multiple threads. Processing audio requires less RAM is true but the point is not about how much memory but latency. As it is the X-Fi processor suffers huge latency issues as described in several reviews. X-RAM is a storage for all the sound samples of a game in a given map so that the audio processor can handle the audio data quicker than if it were on the main-memory. Even a 50ms latency can have a huge impact on the output quality as with the known issues of bad EAX processing. X-RAM is NOT used for audio Processing, just to reduce latancies between accessing wave data from the main memory, let me put up that again:

 

[Electric]

Do you have a Gamer FPS?

 

[btarunr]

I've got Xtreme Gamer and Auzen X-Fi Prelude. The latter has the X-RAM, the former doesn't.

 

[Electric]

Obviously the Prelude has more quality!...IT is the best card so far for games and movies.....hehe...all this time you were comparing the prelude and the normal Gamer? should have said so!.......Compare the Gamer to a Gamer FPS.....

 

[btarunr]

Obviously the Prelude has more quality!...IT is the best card so far for games and movies.....hehe...all this time you were comparing the prelude and the normal Gamer? should have said so!.......Compare the Gamer to a Gamer FPS.....

Bleh..you're confusing quality to latency. Latency = disproportionate EAX effect in an environment caused when the sound sample has to come from the main memory through a long path to the audio processor, causing a lag and the effect is produced a 'little late'. This causes bad output, not to be confused with output quality (sound quality).

 

[Electric]

without testing cant say that Xram is useful in Gamer FPS....No First test both cards and see if you get performance/quality/delay/lag etc increase....Im 100% sure that you wont get any.....Maybe 1 or 2 Frames in a game!...Remember X-ram is not High Performance Ram......Having 2mb is enough to process audio including EAX in games! + The Prelude you have prevails over the Elite Pro and Xonar..It is the "BEST" card you can get on the market price and performance!

Test em and see......

 

[btarunr]

Soon as imperialreign gets his Q6600 (and we come up with a similar system configuration), I'll do just that. I'll compare my Xtreme Gamer to his XG FP and show you the role of X-RAM. I could use my Auzen but you fail to understand the issue is not output quality as in clarity, it's output quality as in bad EAX processing due to increased latency due to lack of X-RAM and asynchrony of visual and audio outputs. so I'll keep my Auzen card out of the picture.

 

[Electric]

What exactly is your point? and how can you prove it?

 

[btarunr]

Point: X-RAM reduces latency with EAX processing by acting as sound cache. I will prove it.

 

[Kursah]

Electric, are you trying to cause a flame-war here? I know Beta fairly well, and he doesn't state without backing it up! You'll soon see...but what exactly is your point man? Glad you spent so much on so many different cards and all, I'm sure in a more professional manner your knowlege would be much appreciated and maybe nice to be donated to the X-FI support thread here...but you two dragging this in the same circle over and over...I want to see some good facts and results out of page 3, not your bantering dammit!

I'm running an ExtremeMusic, and it's fine for what I need...but I didn't get it for FPS...I could really care less about that fact, my games play great and my sound is pretty damn good. I know I don't have the best card out there, nor do I need it...but a better understanding of how my card works, what it has to work with and such is nice stuff to know. I just hope this thread's filled with more than a few lines of bantering and pointless arguements when I return!

 

[beyond_amusia]

I bought an Audigy at Wal-Mart and even though the box bragged abt EAX support all my game audio was stuttering with EAX enabled, so I reverted to my on-board Realtek... Sounds just fine, even with EAX enabled.

 

[Kursah]

I bought an Audigy at Wal-Mart and even though the box bragged abt EAX support all my game audio was stuttering with EAX enabled, so I reverted to my on-board Realtek... Sounds just fine, even with EAX enabled.

I never have had an Audigy, the only reason I got my X-Fi was due to the fact the sound chip on my P5B went south and I needed sound...a few guys here recommended the X-Fi XtremeMusic for my budget and it's worked out nicely.

Now I have this DFI that has the Realtek 8885 or something like that, which is supposed to be a pretty decent onboard HD sound chip, but I've yet to use it. I may just to compare it with my X-Fi one day out of boredome though! I know that onboard can't beat an add-in, but for most, and like I did for years, on-board is proven good enough and getting a lot better.

 

[EastCoasthandle]

Back in the day the 2 best sound cards that I ever came across was A3D (which was decades ahead of Sound Blaster) and Yamaha sound cards (which were more geared towards musicians).
A3D went into bankruptcy in litigation (lawsuits between them and Sound Blaster). Sometimes in 2000 Sound Blaster bought them. I have no idea why Yamaha stop making sound cards.

 

[Electric]

My point is if you take a Xtreme Music which is ~90$ and a Gamer Fatal1ty which is ~145$,spending more on the gamer is a waste where to my experience it gives only about 2 FPS improvement in a game...There are NO lags or delays in the Xtreme Music......The S quality and gameplay experience are the same on both cards! Spending 90$ on the music and modding it will own the Faltil1ty!
The only differnece between those two cards is the 64mb X-Ram which the Fatal1ty has....So jut to gain 2 FPS in a game is it worth to spend about 50$ more?

 

[imperialreign]

My point is if you take a Xtreme Music which is ~90$ and a Gamer Fatal1ty which is ~145$,spending more on the gamer is a waste where to my experience it gives only about 2 FPS improvement in a game...There are NO lags or delays in the Xtreme Music......The S quality and gameplay experience are the same on both cards! Spending 90$ on the music and modding it will own the Faltil1ty!
The only differnece between those two cards is the 64mb X-Ram which the Fatal1ty has....So jut to gain 2 FPS in a game is it worth to spend about 50$ more?

Just my thoughts on an argument that seems to have flared out of nowhere . . .

you're looking at "X-RAM" the wrong way . . . it doesn't give one a performance benefit of 1-2 FPS, hell you'r lucky to see maybe 0.5 FPS from the addition of the RAM. The FPS benefit that Creative advertises comes more from the fact that the X-Fi cards use a dedicated audio processor instead of an audio chipset (like everyone else on the market). A dedicated processor can handle audio tasks hundreds of times faster than a chipset is capable of.

As to the benefits of the RAM - for starters, all of the higher end X-Fi cards use some high quality DRAM modules to begin with, in various amounts ranging from 64MB down to 2MB. The benefit of the RAM is such that, whatever file is currently being processed can be stored on the card instead of it having to be swapped back and forth to SYS MEM. When one stops to consider the architecture of the X-Fi data BUS itself, every component on the card, from the APU to the DAC has access to that audio file at any given time, through the use of a data transport. Once a component is given the 'OK' to access that file, the transport pulls the file to allow the component access to it, which then processes the file, and moves it back into the data BUS where it's then accessed by the next component. This design allows for thousands of simultaneous audio streams, as the processing is done "in house" instead of the information having to be swapped back and forth with the SYS MEM - which each swap calls for 2 interupt requests of the PCI BUS, one to send the info to MEM, and another to call it back. The more MEM on board the audio card, the more audio processes the APU is capable of orchestrating.

A typical audio card has all of it's components organized into a line, which severely limits the number of audio streams that the card is capable of handling.


The use of the onboard DRAM isn't solely to load ingame audio files into MEM (although, this is an advertised feature, if game developers write to support this function) - which would give you a 1-2 FPS increase, but instead, it's primary function is for temporary storage of works in progress, which significantly reduces the amount of traffic on the PCI BUS. The real performance you actually hear, though, isn't measureable by FPS.



Also, although on a spec sheet it would appear that all the X-Fi cards, except the Elite Pro, have the same playback quality, that's not the case. SNR is a generic specification used for audio cards nowadays, and most reviews of audio equipment do not go into great detail as to the nitty-gritty of audio quality . . . asides from, how many review sites actually follow the same standard of testing, or use the same audio file for testing? The final quality of the playback is more dependant on both the components used on the card (and the lower range cards tend to use cheaper quality components), and the enviornment in which the card is installed (sandwiching a card between two 8800 GTSes in SLI will cause degregaded quality that might not necessarily show up in testing).

 

[Electric]

For your information 64MB Xram DOES improve the frame rate by a very very small amount!

I post according to my experience! Your technical data is correct! But in real life technical data/Specs wont do you any good(regarding Audio)! I may not be as good as you in technical mumbo jumbo... hell no... but i do know which is better and which is worse.
that my friend, i can guarantee you....

The Fact Still remains that having X-ram is not worth for the price the cards which has X-ram is tagged with! I repeat Xram is not performance ram! Having 2 or 3mb ram in a X-Fi is more than enough to process audio.........

Yes mentioning SNR is bull...Why the Elite Pro prevails over the rest of the X-Fi?
It has different architecture....Basically Elite Pro uses better DACs and OPAMPs........

So going from a card such as Xtreme Music to Fatal1ty is a complete waste of $!

 

[imperialreign]

For your information 64MB Xram DOES improve the frame rate by a very very small amount!

as I said, maybe 0.5 FPS with newer CPUs, older single cores maybe 1 FPS.

I post according to my experience! Your technical data is correct! But in real life technical data/Specs wont do you any good! I may not be as good as you in technical mumbo jumbo... hell no... but i do know which is better and which is worse.
that my friend, i can guarantee you....

The Fact Still remains that having X-ram is not worth for the price the cards which has X-ram is tagged with! I repeat Xram is not performance ram! Having 2 or 3mb ram in a X-Fi is more than enough to process audio.........

Yes mentioning SNR is bull...Why the Elite Pro prevails over the rest of the X-Fi?
It has different architecture....Basically Elite Pro uses better DACs and OPAMPs........

So going from a card such as Xtreme Music to Fatal1ty is a complete waste of $!

2MB onboard offers near no performance benefits in processing. Keep in mind that the card utilizes an audio processing unit, and therefore needs a BIOS for the SYS to be able to communicate with it. On a card only stouting 2MB, about half of that is used to store the BIOS for the APU, leaving no viable space for audio processing.

The key about the onboard RAM is not for increasing SYS performance, but increasing the number of audio voices the card is processing at any given moment - which, conjunctively, is why the Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro and the Elite Pro can handle twice the number of audio voices as the Xtreme Music can. Also to take into account, the Fatal1ty and Elite cards utilizes higher end components over their mid-range and lower end bretheren. And to get nit-picky over it, the Elite Pro is an entirelly different PCB architecture to any of the other X-Fi cards. TBH, it shares more in common with the Auzentech Prelude than it does either the Fatal1ty or Xtreme Music.

one must remember, also, that the X-RAM is not the largest difference between the Xtreme Music and the Fatal1ty. There are more advertised differences than that. The Xtreme Music is a great, all-around card for it's cost; but, it's not as dedicated to gaming as the Fatal1ty card is. In contrast, the Elite Pro is the best sounding X-Fi card, but it's not intended for heavy gaming, either. The Fatal1ty can handle more voices and process them quicker than the Xtreme Music, and the faster an audio file goes from source to playback means an increase in your reaction time.

That, right there, is the biggest difference between ALL of the X-Fi cards - how quickly said card can convert an audio file from source to playback. This is why the cards, overall, are targeted more at the gaming community as compared to the audiophile community (with exception to the Elite Pro).

 

[Electric]

These are the differences in my point of view!

Questions about X-Fi

question no.1
would i be able to tell the difference? ----- YES

question no.2
will general stuff like avi files,dvd's,mp3,etc sound noticibly different or just games that support high sound quality settings? ----- ALL OF EM!

question no.3
will it be worth it? ----- down to your last penny lad!

question no.4
is it really really really really worth it? ----- like a new revelation sonny!

question no.5
is X-Ram useful? ----- Not Really, only on few games and OpenAL based sound(ie: Prey, Dirt, etc).

question no.6
which X-Fi has X-Ram? ----- FYI, all X-Fi has Ram on it (XMusic has 2MB, XGamer has around 4 to 6MB, while XGFatal1ty, XFatal1ty, XElitePro have 64MB)

question no.7
what is the differences between X-Fis? ----- Ok.. i've made a quick reference on that:
X-Fi Xtreme Audio - Accessories for your barbecue grill or you can use it as a kick ass keychain.
X-Fi Xtreme Gamer, Music, Gamer Fatal1ty, Platinum - sounds the same, plus minus some features.
X-Fi Elite Pro - sounds better since it has a slight difference architecture, and better DAC, Opamps, and Capacitor sizes.
X-Fi Prelude - sounds even better than the rest, since it uses Auzentech technology for sound processing combined with X-Fi chipset.

question no.8
what is this modding i kept hearing of? ----- X-Fi uses cheap, low performing, and unstable components to suppress the selling price, that way we all get cheaper price for x-fi, but also by doing that, it caps out the true potential of your X-Fi.

question no.9
why on earth would i mod my uber expensive card and risk breaking it? ----- too bad my friend, it does wonders to your ears.

question no.10
which X-Fi can be modded? ----- all except Xtreme Audio and Xtreme Gamer.

question no.11
modding it will void my warranty, is there anyway i could have the same audio quality but without voiding any warranty? ----- Get Auzentech X-Fi Prelude.

question no.12
is there any card better than X-Fi? ----- most certainly yes, but not in gaming.

question no.13
do i need the front panel thingy? ----- actually i wouldn't recommend you the front panel.... it degrades the audio quality, if somehow you need it for additional headphone plug, get Plantronics Switcher instead.

question no.14
what are the differences between Xtreme Gamer and the other X-Fi? ----- half height cards, no A/D Link, and cannot be modded.

question no.15
i'm a little low on cash, would Xtreme Audio be enough? ----- actually yes if your budget really cannot be compromised, but i wouldn't recommend you doing so, that card isn't actually an X-Fi....

question no.16
Hey man! your X-Fi sucks! it doesn't work in Vista! ----- try latest driver for X-Fi, it helps a lot... and actually, almost all soundcards are not working perfectly under vista.

question no.17
get a life man! you know too much! ----- i have a life, a great one, if not because of you people keep asking about "is X-Fi really worth it?"

 

[btarunr]

These are the differences in my point of view!

question no.1
would i be able to tell the difference? ----- YES

Between what?

question no.5
is X-Ram useful? ----- Not Really, only on few games and OpenAL based sound(ie: Prey, Dirt, etc).

So? That doesn't explain how X-RAM is a bad technology. How many games actually used NVidia and ATI's vendor specific OpenGL extensions (TruForm / Distance fog) but they were good bits of technology which cannot be written off.

question no.6
which X-Fi has X-Ram? ----- FYI, all X-Fi has Ram on it (XMusic has 2MB, XGamer has around 4 to 6MB, while XGFatal1ty, XFatal1ty, XElitePro have 64MB)

INCORRECT. The Xtreme Gamer and Xtreme Music use the same 2 MiB banks made by either Samsung or Hynix. It's just the XG-FP, PFC, EP, Az XFP that come with 64 MB of memory made by Micron. Details of which are in our club.

question no.7
what is the differences between X-Fis? ----- Ok.. i've made a quick reference on that:
X-Fi Xtreme Audio - Accessories for your barbecue grill or you can use it as a kick ass keychain.
X-Fi Xtreme Gamer, Music, Gamer Fatal1ty, Platinum - sounds the same, plus minus some features.
X-Fi Elite Pro - sounds better since it has a slight difference architecture, and better DAC, Opamps, and Capacitor sizes.
X-Fi Prelude - sounds even better than the rest, since it uses Auzentech technology for sound processing combined with X-Fi chipset.

question no.8
what is this modding i kept hearing of? ----- X-Fi uses cheap, low performing, and unstable components to suppress the selling price, that way we all get cheaper price for x-fi, but also by doing that, it caps out the true potential of your X-Fi.

question no.9
why on earth would i mod my uber expensive card and risk breaking it? ----- too bad my friend, it does wonders to your ears.

question no.10
which X-Fi can be modded? ----- all except Xtreme Audio and Xtreme Gamer.

question no.11
modding it will void my warranty, is there anyway i could have the same audio quality but without voiding any warranty? ----- Get Auzentech X-Fi Prelude.

question no.12
is there any card better than X-Fi? ----- most certainly yes, but not in gaming.

question no.13
do i need the front panel thingy? ----- actually i wouldn't recommend you the front panel.... it degrades the audio quality, if somehow you need it for additional headphone plug, get Plantronics Switcher instead.

question no.14
what are the differences between Xtreme Gamer and the other X-Fi? ----- half height cards, no A/D Link, and cannot be modded.

question no.15
i'm a little low on cash, would Xtreme Audio be enough? ----- actually yes if your budget really cannot be compromised, but i wouldn't recommend you doing so, that card isn't actually an X-Fi....

question no.16
Hey man! your X-Fi sucks! it doesn't work in Vista! ----- try latest driver for X-Fi, it helps a lot... and actually, almost all soundcards are not working perfectly under vista.

question no.17
get a life man! you know too much! ----- i have a life, a great one, if not because of you people keep asking about "is X-Fi really worth it?"

Let's face it, you're here to troll.

 

[Electric]

The difference between the previous cards before X-Fi n onboard! ok btarunr you enjoy your X-Ram i will say no more!

 

[imperialreign]

The difference between the previous cards before X-Fi n onboard! ok btarunr you enjoy your X-Ram i will say no more!

X-Fi onboard used on a very few, selective motherboards, only make use of a Creative chipset . . . the same chipset used on the Xtreme Audio cards. A motherboard could not truly make use of the X-Fi APU, as there wouldn't be enough space, really . . . it would require the same amount of space as a typical southbridge chipset, and would also need to impliment a heatsink + a DAC somewhere in it's vicinity.

Again, I iterate, the onbnoard RAM of a X-Fi card is meant more to aide audio processing. Only on the 64MB models would it allow for audio files to be loaded directly to the card, and only if the game developers implimented this technology. As of this point, only a few games do.

The "64MB X-RAM" is a marketing point of the Fatal1ty and the Elite Pro cards, because these are the only 2 models that ship with 64MB of DRAM. The Xtreme Music typically had 32MB, either a single 32, or two 16MB chips. The Xtreme gamer typically ships with 4MB - early models only stouted 2MB, and some of the later revisions packed 8mb. The Xtreme Audio cards make use of 0MB, as they don't utilize an APU, and the Creative chipset isn't designed to function with onboard MEM.

 

[Mussels]

These are the differences in my point of view!

Questions about X-Fi

question no.1
would i be able to tell the difference? ----- YES

Compared to what? a soundblaster 16? X-fi prelude? my auzentech X-plosion? Will it be for the better? not always. generic claims like this belong in marketing.

question no.2
will general stuff like avi files,dvd's,mp3,etc sound noticibly different or just games that support high sound quality settings? ----- ALL OF EM!

Read my point above. The crystalliser sounds like shit on my headphones, and thats the only thing that x-fi has over my audigy 4.

question no.3
will it be worth it? ----- down to your last penny lad!

Really? you mean i can throw away my X-plosion and audigy 4, and buy one of those? someone with a $400 card from last gen will do it and not care!?!?
Again, generic claims like this belong in big letters on the box. you'll only start a flame war pulling this crap on a forum.

question no.4
is it really really really really worth it? ----- like a new revelation sonny!

no. no i dont think it is.

question no.5
is X-Ram useful? ----- Not Really, only on few games and OpenAL based sound(ie: Prey, Dirt, etc).

well... agree there. its beneficial, but not night and day.

question no.6
which X-Fi has X-Ram? ----- FYI, all X-Fi has Ram on it (XMusic has 2MB, XGamer has around 4 to 6MB, while XGFatal1ty, XFatal1ty, XElitePro have 64MB)

cant argue that. true indeed.

question no.7
what is the differences between X-Fis? ----- Ok.. i've made a quick reference on that:
X-Fi Xtreme Audio - Accessories for your barbecue grill or you can use it as a kick ass keychain.
X-Fi Xtreme Gamer, Music, Gamer Fatal1ty, Platinum - sounds the same, plus minus some features.
X-Fi Elite Pro - sounds better since it has a slight difference architecture, and better DAC, Opamps, and Capacitor sizes.
X-Fi Prelude - sounds even better than the rest, since it uses Auzentech technology for sound processing combined with X-Fi chipset.

X-fi prelude isnt a creative card, thats why its a win

question no.8
what is this modding i kept hearing of? ----- X-Fi uses cheap, low performing, and unstable components to suppress the selling price, that way we all get cheaper price for x-fi, but also by doing that, it caps out the true potential of your X-Fi.

and THATS why we buy the prelude, or anything NOT an x-fi.

question no.9
why on earth would i mod my uber expensive card and risk breaking it? ----- too bad my friend, it does wonders to your ears.

well if you buy a real card from the start, you wont have to!

question no.10
which X-Fi can be modded? ----- all except Xtreme Audio and Xtreme Gamer.

you can mod those too. no one wants to, however.

question no.11
modding it will void my warranty, is there anyway i could have the same audio quality but without voiding any warranty? ----- Get Auzentech X-Fi Prelude.

... exactly what he said.

question no.12
is there any card better than X-Fi? ----- most certainly yes, but not in gaming.

Really? the auzens arent any better? are we talking EAX 5.0 games only, or actually... every game? I'd like to see you beat the other auzentechs, since the overall quality is LOWER on the x-fi prelude than the other auzens. X-fi prelude is 24 bit, 96KHz - even the older audigy 4 i have is 24 bit 192Khz.

question no.13
do i need the front panel thingy? ----- actually i wouldn't recommend you the front panel.... it degrades the audio quality, if somehow you need it for additional headphone plug, get Plantronics Switcher instead.

front panel thing is useless for most. its just creative not wanting to let you use the front jacks on your case to make more money.

question no.14
what are the differences between Xtreme Gamer and the other X-Fi? ----- half height cards, no A/D Link, and cannot be modded.

i've heard they use a different chipset, and do not support alchmey as well. havent verified this, its just what i heard.

question no.15
i'm a little low on cash, would Xtreme Audio be enough? ----- actually yes if your budget really cannot be compromised, but i wouldn't recommend you doing so, that card isn't actually an X-Fi....

ok, maybe thats the one i meant in 14.

question no.16
Hey man! your X-Fi sucks! it doesn't work in Vista! ----- try latest driver for X-Fi, it helps a lot... and actually, almost all soundcards are not working perfectly under vista.

i've never seen one not work. hell, even AC97 realtek cards and SB live 4.0 work in vista if you try. its EAX that doesnt work in vista, because creative want to force everyone to buy an X-fi and use alchemy.

question no.17
get a life man! you know too much! ----- i have a life, a great one, if not because of you people keep asking about "is X-Fi really worth it?"

i like my life too. it may not have an x-fi, but its a nice life. my housemate is happy with the auzentech, she may not be able to spell it, but she likes it anyway.