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How To Connect Amplifier To Receiver?

T

twilyth

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#76
Well designed speakers sound the same, as they should. The goal is not to color sound, it is to accurately reproduce it. that siad some speaker have certain EQ slopes, but they all sound relatively the same, as they should.

Its a bogus argument, if 2 sets of speaker sound different, one of them is broken. Room accoustics impact the listening enviroment more then the speakers do, some baffles just have near field interactions that some fine more preferably then others.

That siad, all good speaker of reasonable quality, sound the same. As they should. By design.

Twylth is wrong and so are you.
I'm still waiting for an answer to my very simple question Mr. Expert. Are you too lazy or look it up, or is it just beyond your capabilities? :laugh:
 

qubit

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#77
Thanks man :toast:, but this guy, or rather thatguy, wouldn't know a cross over from a light switch. Don't waste your time. I just want to see how far he can go before he has to bail. :laugh:
You're welcome. :)

It always cracks me up the way discussions about sound quality foment argument as vehemently as politics, religion... and, err, graphics cards on TPU. :laugh:

Do you remember all those CD player reviews where they compared the jitter from identical recordings/data on different CDs, with fancy noise graphs and claimed to hear a difference in clarity between the different discs? Yeah, I never bought that, either.

The sound is buffered into a RAM chip and streamed out via a highly accurate clock signal. Any CD player worth its salt will have the data streaming off the CD (with all its irregular jitter and many read errors) completely decoupled from the error-corrected output data stream. What a load of bullshit those reviews were.

I did my own tests at home, by ripping audio discs and then burning them to CD-R's and CD-RW's. I have Plextor burners, so I was able to measure the physical recording quality on the disc using the Plextools software. I made sure to burn some very poor copies with a great deal of errors along with the high quality copies - in fact, some of these measured even better than the original pressed disc.

The result? They all sounded the bloody same! I played the discs on the PC's drive and my cheap CD player and got the same results each time. Yup, unless the disc skipped or popped, there was precisely no discernable difference between any of them. I even subjected a couple of friends to them and they couldn't tell either.

Tell me, now that CDs are a dying format, do they still do reviews like this?
 
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twilyth

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#78
Dude, I barely followed what you were saying. But no, I never heard of anything like that. I was perfectly happy with my NHT Zeros for the rare occasions I would listen to music. It's just recently that I've got back into music. And I never thought I would do a home theater setup.

I'm definitely not audiophile material. Just because I might be able to hear a difference, doesn't mean I think it's worth the extra $xxx to buy the equipment that can reproduce it. When it comes to audio, I'm more a bang-for-the-buck sort of consumer. :laugh: :pimp:
 

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#79
Hey, no problem. :)

I myself tend to get the front end right and then worry about the final reproduction later. Now, with digital sound formats, 99% of my music is in lossles WAV format, so that takes care of the front end.

I used to use a small Aiwa midi amplifier (not audiophile by any means) along with some high quality 1970s B&W 3-way floor standing speakers I got for cheap from a friend. This was connected to my PC and sounded very good - and the system couldn't half kick out some bass, I tell you!

However, it was always a pain with having to switch the amp on and off separately from the PC and having to keep the volume down to avoid bothering the neighbours. Then I got my current Iiyama monitor which came with two tiny rear-facing speakers. To put it bluntly, they sound shit and have zero bass. However, with some severe cranking up of the treble via the Creative control panel and a little extra equalizing, they sound remarkably tolerable and ok (but still rubbish).

I initially tried them for the novelty of it, but then ended up keeping my system like this for the shear convenience. I can't believe I've made this trade-off, because I really care about sound quality! :eek: :laugh:
 
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twilyth

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#80
Do you think Bowers and Wilkinson are still as good or have they gone downhill now that their featured in the Best Buy Magnolia sound rooms? They were out of my budget, but I was looking at a pair before I settled on the NHT classic 3's for the front and center.

Living in an apartment (I'm guessing that's what you meant by 'neighbors') does indeed suck. You're stuck with cans if you want to crank it and it's just not the same. Plus I think it's a little claustrophobic.
 
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#81
Do you think Bowers and Wilkinson are still as good or have they gone downhill now that their featured in the Best Buy Magnolia sound rooms? They were out of my budget, but I was looking at a pair before I settled on the NHT classic 3's for the front and center.

Living in an apartment (I'm guessing that's what you meant by 'neighbors') does indeed suck. You're stuck with cans if you want to crank it and it's just not the same. Plus I think it's a little claustrophobic.
I went to Bestbuy Magnolia and auditioned the CM9s and they sound absolutely great. I couldn't audition the CM1s or the 685 but I figure it would be pretty good. I managed to get the CM1 and CM2 all for around $1400 which is a pretty good deal. Some may say the CM2 may be an overkill for my setup, but for the price I got it is pretty good and is in brand new condition and not used (well that's what it said on the description and the seller said). Will be getting them by the end of the week.
 
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#82
only nice thing about living in an apartment is I live next door to the super which should be a nightmare but she is cool and goth :laugh:
 

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#83
Do you think Bowers and Wilkinson are still as good or have they gone downhill now that their featured in the Best Buy Magnolia sound rooms? They were out of my budget, but I was looking at a pair before I settled on the NHT classic 3's for the front and center.

Living in an apartment (I'm guessing that's what you meant by 'neighbors') does indeed suck. You're stuck with cans if you want to crank it and it's just not the same. Plus I think it's a little claustrophobic.
I'm sorry, I can't give any specifics about the current audio scene, as I just don't know. While I've read lots of hi-fi magazines, mainly in the 80s & 90s and understand all the principles, I've never gone out and splashed big money on hi-fi. The most expensive piece of hi-fi was a Denon 3 head cassette deck (DR-M 33HX) way back in 1986 for a cool £300 (a nuts purchase in hindsight).

I'm kinda like you in going for bang for buck components, hence those used B&W speakers. As long as the sound is clear, with good bass and treble and without too much coloration from the speakers, I'm happy. In fact, you could call me an audiophile's nightmare: I've always liked punchy dance and electronic music. This sounds so much better with the bass and treble turned up high! I don't give a shit about a 'balanced' sound, just as long as it's pleasing to my ears.

In fact, my little Aiwa amp (just 30W RMS per channel) has a special bass boost button called Dynamic Super Loudness (DSL) that adds serious punch* to bass and with bassy speakers and the right music, it can really make the room pound and shake! :rockout: Luckily, my Creative X-Fi ExtremeMusic sound card has a similar function and this version has adjustable gain! Yeah, audiophiles hate me. :laugh:

Yes, I do live in an apartment, but I'm also happy wearing headphones. Speakers and headphones both have their pros and cons and one isn't really better than the other, just very different listening experiences.

*I had an oscilloscope many years ago and I tried to figure out how this DSL circuit actually achieved its effect, because the bass still sounds natural, but now you can really hear and feel it and the speaker cones move a lot more. It's sort of like breast enlargement for bass.

Anyway, I put a pure 50Hz sine wave through the speakers and viewed the waveform on the oscilloscope, carefully noting it's amplitude. I then turned on DSL and brought the amplitude back down to its previous level. The result? The bass still sounded deeper, even though the waveform looked the same. So heck, I dunno how it pulls off this trick, but it's awesome. :D
 
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#84
only nice thing about living in an apartment is I live next door to the super which should be a nightmare but she is cool and goth :laugh:
Sexy times?
 
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#85
not unless she is into stroking lobes.
 
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#86
lol. Good one.
 

Thatguy

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#87
I'm still waiting for an answer to my very simple question Mr. Expert. Are you too lazy or look it up, or is it just beyond your capabilities? :laugh:
I am not going to delve into your indulgence, first off becuase your ignoring the primary factor in a statement like this.

Why does my $500 set of speakers sound like shit.


Becuase your listening enviroment is garbage !

If you wanna debate the sound coloration and EQ slopes of particular brands of loudspeakers, thats fine. thoe diffrences do exist, but those minor variances are largely much less pertinent then the problem of the room creating all sorts of issues.

If you want good hifi sound and have zero budget for any room treatment, buy some near field monitors. and sit in the sweet spot.

oh and turn down the volume, adding amplitude only makes room problems worse, not better.
 

Thatguy

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#88
I'm sorry, I can't give any specifics about the current audio scene, as I just don't know. While I've read lots of hi-fi magazines, mainly in the 80s & 90s and understand all the principles, I've never gone out and splashed big money on hi-fi. The most expensive piece of hi-fi was a Denon 3 head cassette deck (DR-M 33HX) way back in 1986 for a cool £300 (a nuts purchase in hindsight).

I'm kinda like you in going for bang for buck components, hence those used B&W speakers. As long as the sound is clear, with good bass and treble and without too much coloration from the speakers, I'm happy. In fact, you could call me an audiophile's nightmare: I've always liked punchy dance and electronic music. This sounds so much better with the bass and treble turned up high! I don't give a shit about a 'balanced' sound, just as long as it's pleasing to my ears.

In fact, my little Aiwa amp (just 30W RMS per channel) has a special bass boost button called Dynamic Super Loudness (DSL) that adds serious punch* to bass and with bassy speakers and the right music, it can really make the room pound and shake! :rockout: Luckily, my Creative X-Fi ExtremeMusic sound card has a similar function and this version has adjustable gain! Yeah, audiophiles hate me. :laugh:

Yes, I do live in an apartment, but I'm also happy wearing headphones. Speakers and headphones both have their pros and cons and one isn't really better than the other, just very different listening experiences.

*I had an oscilloscope many years ago and I tried to figure out how this DSL circuit actually achieved its effect, because the bass still sounds natural, but now you can really hear and feel it and the speaker cones move a lot more. It's sort of like breast enlargement for bass.

Anyway, I put a pure 50Hz sine wave through the speakers and viewed the waveform on the oscilloscope, carefully noting it's amplitude. I then turned on DSL and brought the amplitude back down to its previous level. The result? The bass still sounded deeper, even though the waveform looked the same. So heck, I dunno how it pulls off this trick, but it's awesome. :D
Then your results are baised by your expectation.

It sounds better becuase I paid more for it.

Placebo effect.
 

qubit

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#91
Then your results are baised by your expectation.

It sounds better becuase I paid more for it.

Placebo effect.
Which bit are you referring to? This is hardly a meaningful response, is it? Regardless, there's no placebo effect, whichever bit you're referring to. :rolleyes:
 
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#93
Learn to understand this, most modern equipment offers nearly flat response from 20-20 .

Speaker placement etc, its all hoopla and BS, it trys to correct for bad room behavior. If you really want GOOD sound, fix the room.

Flubby bass is rarely a subwoofer problem, its a reflection and rining issues, smeared highs and inaudiable voice and other problems, mostly a problem with the room.

In fact any average 300-500 soround sound system is going to benchmakr pretty close to any 3000 system. The difference in quality will mostly be attributed to the room.

Theres alot of BS in the audio world. Most of it spurred by inattention to dealing with room response issues and the various attempts at magical fixs to correct it.

Diffuse, dampen and absorb.
I just wanted to address this since now it seems everybody is finished bashing each other.

Saying modern speakers and/or audio equiptment have an essentially flat response is a massive oversimplification. But generally, yeah, in the scheme of things, once you get out of the crap section and into the quality products, the difference drops significantly and ultra-high-end stuff will make less than 1% of the difference that going from "computer speakers" to "speakers" does.

Speaker placement is not at all hoopla or BS. It does correct, prevent or work around, bad room behavior - not eliminate it. Here too, some things make much more of a difference than others. Not mounting your speakers behind the back of the couch such that they're firing into it and being baffled by it, or in a cabinet or shelving unit, and not pressing it right up against a wall makes a lot more difference than some of the highly praised techniques used by some. Same with the audyssey system, it corrects (by definition you can't correct unless there's a fault), as much as possible with EQ and other synthetic factors for bad room behavior, and just as importantly, for unmatched speakers - both in response but also in loudness. This stuff was never meant to be a magic bullet and anyone who tells you it is - is either lying or deluding themselves.

The point I was trying to make is that he should attempt to familiarize himself with his system, and the operation thereof, then learn the proper placement of speakers relative to furniture and walls, and the DON'Ts of Home theater, etc... essentially he should do all the kind of things that prevent problems, before he starts worrying about enhancing things.

Part of the tone of my comment came from having discussed the situation in depth with him via PM where I, perhaps incorrectly, gleaned that he sort of had a set space he could use, and as he said himself - is a little confused and just beginning to learn a lot of the things involved. So yes, the room IS one of the biggest factors there is, but to really get a room to behave right you have to do more than treat it, you have to purpose-build a space. It has to be designed from the beginning with audio in mind. Selection of building materials and construction technique makes a big difference, not as much as room dimensions, but it's a big factor still. Even in the best of soundrooms, if you take your subwoofer and put it in the corner backed right up against the wall, with the gain set way up and the lowpass set way off, it's going to boom to some degree. If you're not going to purpose build a theatre room, the first thing to know is how to prevent from causing problems yourself, and then one can worry about optimizing further. At the point you made your statement, he really was overwhelmed with info and I was just trying to make sure he had the fundamentals down before spending money on something he didn't quite understand the implications of. I wasn't calling you stupid. Honest.

Qubit and Twilyth seem to have that under control :rolleyes:
 
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#94
Im thinking i need to do a home theate setup now.. i'm using an old sony str-de545 lol.. and i thought it was loud and sounded good...
 
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#95
I start building my home theater next week.

by the way acoustic foam is great because it's inexpensive and efficient at absorbing high frequencies. I am not sure why Thatguy said it was useless.. fiber glass is more efficient but it's expensive. I would definitely use acoustic foam over nothing at all.

 
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#96
I start building my home theater next week.

by the way acoustic foam is great because it's inexpensive and efficient at absorbing high frequencies. I am not sure why Thatguy said it was useless.. fiber glass is more efficient but it's expensive. I would definitely use acoustic foam over nothing at all.
Take pictures.
 
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#97
I am not sure why Thatguy said it was useless.. fiber glass is more efficient but it's expensive.
Thatguy was banned recently, so that might explain it? He made quite a few trolls in my threads and was quite unpleasant.
 
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#98
Yep. Makes sense. He wasn't COMPLETELY full of shit ALL the time, but he sure liked to think he knew everything there was to know about everything. Too bad, if people like that would learn to take themselves a little less seriously and argue in a constructive/collaborative manner, they could actually be a plus in the forum instead of, well, what he was.