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AshenSugar

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not really, becaus i know that intels out dated platform sold alot of chips in name recognition alone not on the power they have compared to amd.

as to athlon MP, they are just a renamed athlonXP, and amd didnt push them as a server platform, they knew at the time that they had no hope against intel in the server market because they where an unknown name in comparison.

and intels been making ia64 for how many years? and sales of opterons in the first day they where made was far higher then in all the years the ia64 chips had been avalable?

if there was the demand intel would make the chips, but dispite your assertion that the ia64 is a better chip/design they aren selling even close to the number of ia64 chips that amd is selling opterons, not even the fact that its an intel chip is giving them the advantage they want.

alot is due to the fact that the intanium gave such a poor showing when it first came out.

as to super computers, well most of them run on costom os's with costom software not windows or any other off the shelf os, so its kinda silly to say that the reasion opterons ahead is due to it having more software readly avalable, that software would need to be desiigned to run on a massive number of prossors on costom hardware(red storms not off the shelf parts u know)

and sorry i didnt just mean the sparc thing for you and yes i missed the Niagara part, i think of it as the t1, probbly because thats what its name was in the documents about sparc i read.
 
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I did not say it's a better chip. I said the architecture is better. It simply is, it's what it was designed to be. And why would you have a problem with that? You hate anything Intel makes and both x86 and IA64 are Intel architectures.
And again, you can't compare sales since they don't serve the same market. (sure they overlap slightly)



http://top500.org/stats/28 OSs don't seem that custom. Not more customized than your average server anyway.
It's not silly to claim software is an issue. You can't just recompile every program so it works on Itanium. Specially in the lower end server market that's quite important. Itanium relies heavily on parallelization for its performance. So even if a program works when compiled it still won't be optimized.


A shame the Windows servers are actually out of the list btw. Last year there were a few. I always thought of them of a good example of what Windows is capable of.
 

AshenSugar

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ms has been farking around with windows so much that alot of server companys have stared to work on their own linux/unix versions, and i know for a fact that a few very large companys around here are gonna dump windows as a server once 2003 looses support, they are unwilling to deal with and use vista, and they have custom unix variants in the works to replace most windows servers(most because linux/unix still dosnt have a real alterntive to AD) the advantages of moving away from windows are pretty large for them, one of the biggest benefits is that they arent forced to upgrade their servers to run the next extreamly bloated version of windows(vista is a bloated whore of an os, even server, 728mb ram used on a clean install.......thats nutz)

ms will learn eventualy as companys move away from their products to other alternitives, be it mac, linux, solaris, unix/bsd or other options, for desktop use, well ms has that market locked down, its hard to retrain joe schmo to use a new os when he/she can barly use the one they been on for years and years!!!!
 

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It's not really a constant back and forth since AMD has only had 1 series of chips which actually managed to outperform the Intel chips. (Athlon XP performed similar, Athlon 64 took a lead) And Core 2 Duo is actually a native dual core chip, unlike Pentium D which are 2 Prescotts glued together. However, Kentsfield and Clovertown are again 2 C2D's glued together. Can't argue about that working out well though. Looks a lot better than relabeling workstation chips and glueing chipsets as well.

As for the 64 bit issue, Intel has had its own 64 bit instruction set (besides IA64). However Intel said the customer does not need it yet and therefor never enabled it. Apparently the instruction set is baked into some P4 cores (so they say). The thing is AMD released their 64 bit set first and hyped it so Intel had to follow. Microsoft however would not make yet another version of Windows for Intel and Intel was forced to adapt to AMD's instruction set. That is a major part of what went wrong with the 64 bit story. And when considering that, Intel did a very impressive job by adapting their cores within a year. And as we all know, nobody actually uses 64 bit, so Intel was right about the customer not needing 64 bit.

Your hate towards "the fake 2nd CPU" isn't that logical either, it's not SMP, it's SMT, do some reading on that yourself. High end specialized chips like Niagara and Power5 use similar technologies, you really want to argue about SMT being a stupid move since AMD is about the only company NOT using it?

And finally about your hate towards the hothead Prescott, I would say that is yet another feature Intel copied from AMD ;) *coughThunderbirdcough*




you know i really like this discussion im learning things i never knew this is actually really good info here.......and for the record i really hated the thunderbirds. morgan was better.
 
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Until Microsoft actually has problems selling their software I will simply laugh at it all. Even though I do see how Unix based systems can perform a lot better the easy management of Windows servers is very attractive. And since most smaller companies have servers that do nothing half of the time the overhead of the GUI won't be noticed. And since the argument of Linux being cheaper is far from a fact I really doubt Windows will lose ground anytime soon, even in the server market.
 

Solaris17

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can someone give me info on the itaniums? when did they come out? what architecture? clock speed was it intels answer to the opteron? Dan i know you know. your good for all this intel stuff. I know AMD pretty well but only AMD im oblivious to the more outcast chips though f ex: Dothan Itanium other random things.
 
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AshenSugar,
What is the purpose you think dualcore chips talk to each other?
Let's look at your post before we go any further:
acctualy x2's have an internal crossbar and HT link between cores, (...)
x2,s dont need to share cache, they can talk DIRRECTLY using internal HT corssbar
Please provide a link to a document that states that X2 uses the crossbar to share L2 cache.
Btw, crossbar is not a HT link.
core2 from what i have read uses the FSB and shared l2 cant be used to communicate between cores.
The bolded part indicates that apparently, you don't know why different cores on DC/MC CPUs actually talk to each other...

There's only 1 reason:
Cache coherency

Saying something like "shared cache on C2D can not be used to maintain cache coherency" makes absolutely no sense because the sole purpose of cores talking to each other (= cache coherency protocols) is to keep internal and external caches mirrored. C2D doesn't have to manage L2 cohenrency at all thank's to the fact it's L2 is shared between both cores. Thus core#0 can directly read the data core#1 has written into the L2. L1 caches are kept coherent via DRAM though.

K8 DC/MC CPUs have no shared cache meaning when core#0 wants something from the L2 of core#1, core#1 has to write the data into DRAM first, then core#0 can read the DRAM and write the data into it's own L2.
edit:
The major Northbridge blocks are: System Request Interface (SRI), Memory controller (MCT), and Cross Bar. SRI interfaces with the CPU core and connects coherent HyperTransport links and noncoherent HyperTransport links. MCT maintains cache coherency and interfaces with the DRAM. XBAR is a five port switch which routes the command packets between SRI, MCT and the three HyperTransport links. Not all HyperTransport links have to be active.


Source:
BIOS and Kernel Developer's Guide for AMD AthlonTM 64 and AMD OpteronTM Processors
also opteron chips have an crossbar betwen chips,this is one reasion they outperform intel dual/quad/exct chip setups from many articals i have read,
DP/MP Opterons have 2 coherent HT links that connect different sockets, not a crossbar.
i duno about xbit's artical really i would rather see real world tests insted of these synthetics.
These are real world tests.
The program xbitlabs used counts the amount of CPU cycles between core#0's request for data found in core#1's L2 and the moment when the data arrives to core#0.
 
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AshenSugar

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no it wasnt intels answer to the opteron, they have been out a very long time, try googling "intanium wikipedia" , as stated its IA64 architecture, or intel architecture 64.

im sure dan can give you alot more info but you really should learn to google :p

as to ms, well linux isnt cheaper, its more of a pain in the ass, but its not cheaper, but some unix variants arent neerly as bad, solaris and bsd for example, they are far more standardised then linux(linux is a muttled mess of 100 of thousands of distros no 2 100% compatable with the others) but talk about linux is for another place and time!!!!

ms is starting to hear back from their corp costmers about what they think of vista, and its not good for the most part, nobody will move a large company to vista for at least a year after it comes out, but even then, dealing with the new VLK design bothers alot of companys, as do other things about vista(it breaks ALOT of apps in one way or another, IE7 on vista really messes up some common apps i have seen in testing!!!! )

i got a feeling with where ms is heading on this new windows they are gonna loose sales in the retail and corp market, OEM's are all that will save them, and then i got a feeling dell and others may start offering other options to people who want low price systems that couldnt run vista(u need alot of ram and gpu to run vista for example)
 

AshenSugar

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im done with this fighting/argeing, its just going in circles, and gonna endup giving dan an excuse to bann me, im gonna move on, this thred should have been locked 2 pages ago :p
 
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can someone give me info on the itaniums? when did they come out? what architecture? clock speed was it intels answer to the opteron? Dan i know you know. your good for all this intel stuff. I know AMD pretty well but only AMD im oblivious to the more outcast chips though f ex: Dothan Itanium other random things.

IA64 as mentioned above started development in the early 90's. It was designed together with HP and some other companies. At first it was designed to replace x86 which is held back by legacy stuff. In 2001 the Itanium was released (the first IA64 CPU). It was released too late, performed quite bad and was very expensive. Even if you had the money they were hard to come by.
A year later Itanium 2 was released, since its launch there have been various cores.
The Itanium was meant to be a desktop chip though is now only a high end server chip mainly found in large databaseservers and such. It has a small energy efficient core and a huge cache (I believe the largest cache is 24MB atm) which is the reason they are so big :)
Windows IA64 is available and next to that you can het HP-UX (obviously) and I believe Solaris and AIX, probably some other unices as well.
You can actually buy the original Itanium off Ebay quite cheap. Perhaps I should build one for educational purposes some day. (donations?:p)

Currently the sales aren't sky high or anything, but the market is growing slowly. Intel plans to merge sockets with Xeons in the future, though that will take several years at least. Sharing sockets with Xeons would possibly boost sales by a lot.

Besides running IA64 code very fast it can also emulate IA32 (x86-32), at first this went terribly slow though they updated the emulation code so it would run it at the speed of a Xeon at the same clock speed. Since Itaniums run at pretty low speeds it's not really meant to run x86 code on these machines. You could find enough information on the Intel site I bet, it's still being developed so the information should be open to the public.
 

AshenSugar

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ok i will put one more post here, i agree sharing a socket with xeon could gain them some market share, specly if intel managed to allow mixed matches and virtulasation(sp) could be interesting seeing a system running 2 totaly diffrent chips at once......

bye bye to this thred, its evil and needs to die :p
 
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ok i will put one more post here, i agree sharing a socket with xeon could gain them some market share, specly if intel managed to allow mixed matches and virtulasation(sp) could be interesting seeing a system running 2 totaly diffrent chips at once......

bye bye to this thred, its evil and needs to die :p

I should be pushing some guys at 2CPU to put a Xeon 5110 next to a 5310 and see if it works.
I've read on toms hardware that they combined a dual core Opteron with a single core one creating a triple core system. It worked pretty good. The POST did bitch about CPU's not matching but it worked.
Now that several people at 2CPU have some Clovertowns they could try it for me :)
 

cdawall

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wow this has become heated
you know as far as servers go AMD has nothing to compete with the itaniums series the opteron operates much smaller servers than the intel Itanium and itanium2 thats why the optys outsell the intels its simple logic 10 optys cost as much as 1 itanium? nobody that doesnt need a MASSIVE server will use it its not cost effective even in the long run
this is especialy true considering intels constant change in chipsets and sockets AMD managed to use the same socket for their mobile/desktop/server chips (socket A) and now they atre reusing old sockets (socket 754) for mobile/ low end desktop 939 is used on both server and desktop as is 940 (FX series was released on it FX51 and FX53) socket F desktop and server AM2 desktop and server
now you could argue AMDs lack of a true server socket is an issue but it allows the consumer to know he will be able to upgrade his system to a newer chip when he needs more power something gto expensive and time consuming to do on an intel
 
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socket f is a 'true server' socket, but releasing 4x4 has confused this issue slightly, also the original 940 (fx51, 200 series opty, not am2) was a server socket, however like socket f amd used these for 'enthusiast' desktops (it was dropped when 939's were ready, but they carried on with it for servers)
 

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socket f is a 'true server' socket, but releasing 4x4 has confused this issue slightly, also the original 940 (fx51, 200 series opty, not am2) was a server socket, however like socket f amd used these for 'enthusiast' desktops (it was dropped when 939's were ready, but they carried on with it for servers)

i dont consider it a true server if it has desktop chips on it that makes it both in my book at least
 
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