I dont understand the phone OS world.....

[Onasi]

So you would give your money to Apple?

Unironically - yeah. I don’t need much from my phone and their devices do the job admirably. By the point support is stopped it’s already been 5-7 years and I would be in the market for a new one anyway. Plus, whatever shit I might say about Apple, they ARE extremely good when it comes to basic UX. Everything is just working and all the controls are where I would expect them to be.

 

[Vayra86]

Unironically - yeah. I don’t need much from my phone and their devices do the job admirably. By the point support is stopped it’s already been 5-7 years and I would be in the market for a new one anyway. Plus, whatever shit I might say about Apple, they ARE extremely good when it comes to basic UX. Everything is just working and all the controls are where I would expect them to be.

Right? I used to be an Android advocate and open and free is what I love... but man have they got their stuff in order. I dont think I want a non Apple phone anytime soon. And thats all I need/want from them too.

 

[bug]

There's more to it then that.


The biggest reason is these devices are running Linux on ARM CPUs. For these ARM platforms, drivers bust be compiled before booting the OS. On x86 machines, this isnt an issue because we have default drivers that can allow boot and more advanced drivers can be installed after the fact. Most x86 CPUs also have open source drivers.

This is NOT true on ARM chips. Each ROM must have its drivers at time of compilation. Most of these chips use closed source tech, and their drivers are only updated for a few years. This means once they age your OS must use older unsupported drivers on a newer OS, which since it cannot be guaranteed, most OEMs are unwilling to do. Custom ROMs can do it, but this can cause issues and as noted Qualcomm is the only company that reliably gets custom ROMs, largely because you can download their driver packs without being a corporation. Companies like mediatek will stonewall you on getting all you need to roll your own.

Also, every platform is different. Imagine if you needed a custom Windows OS install for every different motherboard and CPU combo out there. That is the reality of phones, they are a PITA to support compared to PCs.

This is the only answer worth reading.

Manufacturers of SoCs, cameras and various peripherals simply do not bother releasing newer drivers once they have launched a new generation of their products.

 

[unwind-protect]

So here is something that is often done away with "its not possible, it cant be done" but I dont get it...

Lets take Microsoft OS, Windows, I can install Windows 10 on ANCIENT hardware, like a Core 2 Duo or even a Pentium 4, this is perfectly normal that you can do that.
I can also install Linux Unbuntu and IOS (virtual perhaps but still).

So what is up with phones and Android OS?
Why are all phones only supported for X amount of years, why are phone makers even involved? why can I just download a copy of the latest version of Android and install that on my phone?
Why are there no alternatives yet, like I know there is something like Linux on phones (heck Android is Linux derived) but its all apperenly a bit janky and out of date.

And I just dont understand why, phones are bascially small computers, heck MS now has "windows on arm" sooo can I just install windows 11 on any device that has arm based hardware?
Can I override a tablet with Android and install windows 11 on it if I wanted to?

and if not...why not? why is that world so dang different from the OS world we have known for 2 decades.

Phones are crippled computers, not real computers. I mean software wise.

The reason why old phones drop off support is that the drivers for hardware are not ported. In the case of Android the manufacturer doesn't have the source code for the drivers in the first place, so they can't even if they wanted to.

 

[dont whant to set it"']

:There is no Android version of mobile Android, headscratch;
Samsung: where do I find files or Google?;(headache)
Google; Where do I find Google or files?;(headache)
Obsoleted upon release: no surprise there. Every manufacturer has it's one take on it( one may dare mention apple).

 

[Dr. Dro]

So you would give your money to Apple? Or someone else ? You can always just buy a phone, delete the OS on it and put on whatever OS you want GrapheneOS, CalyxOS, LineageOS amongst others. You just need to make sure whatever phone you buy isn't Apple or a locked down phone that was meant for Android.

Let's not pretend that these variants of Android are valid alternatives or any different, because they aren't. They stroke your fancy? Great. They aren't viable for 99.99% of users, are completely unsustainable, unmarketable and unmaintainable.

Your device will be permanently rejected and blacklisted by every BYOD enterprise security system, banned by every single banking app, will fail every security attestation check (you can't even fake it on newer versions), will never be restorable to a fully workable state due to eFuse security (you can flash back official binary and it will never be trustworthy again), denied service by its manufacturer because you tampered with it, and there's even some cases (such as some Sony Xperia phones) where doing this will erase the camera DRM keys and your phone will permanently take dogshit pictures even if you restore the device's original software. I hope it was all worth it just so you can sound cool to some other nerds on the XDA forums.

I'll just stick to my iPhone, with 10 years of updates and global service whenever I need it.

Right? I used to be an Android advocate and open and free is what I love... but man have they got their stuff in order. I dont think I want a non Apple phone anytime soon. And thats all I need/want from them too.

Exactly this. And if I may be entirely honest, ever since Apple stopped being stingy with file system access and allowed emulators on the App Store... the day they made that decision was the day Android died.

 

[Vayra86]

Apple stopped being stingy with file system access

Yeah. This surprised me at one point. Just being able to access the drive memory on a PC was like omg, my life is complete now.

I think its funny to see how times change on us. It seems like very slowly nowadays, the good ol' days of remembering how nice it is to have your shit locally/accessible and actually not in the cloud are coming back. Big Tech has already moved on, they know they can't sell us ads too well anymore, they know they can't make us pay for Facebook or Gmail or Youtube, so now its AI. Its like they stopped caring about what you do at this point and are just executing their big plan of world domination that will eventually fall flat on its face. They no longer spy on our entire browser history, but now they just wait for the prompts. How different that used to be... Ironically data is becoming more and more free, especially with the increasing bandwidth across the planet, but also because people have apparently voiced clearly enough that we want a degree of ownership.

If you're not on social media... and don't follow the news... its almost like the world is back to normal

 

[Frick]

Exactly this. And if I may be entirely honest, ever since Apple stopped being stingy with file system access and allowed emulators on the App Store... the day they made that decision was the day Android died.

FWIW I have an iPhone 11 at work and the updates are the only upside to it, personally I find the rest of the phone annoying. But then again other companies are following suit and removing SD cards so actual good phones just get fewer and fewer.

 

[Dr. Dro]

FWIW I have an iPhone 11 at work and the updates are the only upside to it, personally I find the rest of the phone annoying. But then again other companies are following suit and removing SD cards so actual good phones just get fewer and fewer.

They've done that a long time ago. Samsung as the largest Android manufacturer and trendsetter there dropped the headphone jack with the Galaxy S20 series and the Micro SD card slot with the Galaxy S21 series, the S10+ was the last device to have both. The S10 is from 2019 so, it's been a good 5 to 6 years without that.

There's nothing really annoying with iOS, at least after you master the app switching gestures (was a challenge for me coming from the 6s Plus which has a physical button), but I suppose it is a matter of taste. My questioning of Android runs far deeper than just the UI/shell, though.

 

[Frick]

They've done that a long time ago. Samsung as the largest Android manufacturer and trendsetter there dropped the headphone jack with the Galaxy S20 series and the Micro SD card slot with the Galaxy S21 series, the S10+ was the last device to have both. The S10 is from 2019 so, it's been a good 5 to 6 years without that.

There are other brands than Apple and Samsung.

There's nothing really annoying with iOS ... but I suppose it is a matter of taste.

Sure is.

My questioning of Android runs far deeper than just the UI/shell, though.

Sure.

 

[cvaldes]

The cloud essentially forced Apple's hand in opening up file directory access on iPhone/iPad. With others like Dropbox, Google Drive, OneDrive supporting traditional hierarchical file directories online, Apple really needed to open it up a little bit. Their early versions of iCloud Drive attempted to bury this but they ended up going whether the consumer was headed.

Same with things like emulators and more customization features. Jailbreaking iPhones in 2025 is nearly dead unlike the early years.

Let's remember though what an operating system is because some people don't seem to understand. An operating system is a big complicated program that lets other big complicated programs live in (relative) harmony on the same system. Music player, video editor, bank app, social media, NFC contactless payment, biometric identification, fitness tracking, spreadsheet, etc.

GrapheneOS, CalyxOS, LineageOS, and the like simply don't have a wide variety of those other programs to be useful to Joe Consumer. Yeah sure, you can boot up one of those weird OSes on your old Android and maybe you can send an e-mail or take a picture, but it's not like you're going to be able to use it as a Tokyo Metro transit pass at the Ginza station or have a native app for your brokerage. And typically the device driver support on marginal OSes is abysmal.

There's a reason why iPhone is good: Apple considers themselves to essentially be a software company whose software and services run best on their own proprietary hardware. So they sell their hardware at a handsome profit, provided the OS for free, and make more money providing an app store with many excellent and useful apps plus services. One of Apple's competitive advantages is vertical integration. They can design and build hardware and write the software the way they want it. And with their software focus they provide a lot of useful tools for third-party developers.

It's not a surprise that some TPU forum participants don't understand smartphone operating systems. That's because they view them as geeks rather than as consumers and can't see the forest for the trees.

As Steve Jobs said the iPhone is the "computer for the rest of us." It's not about tech specs, benchmarks, what process node, how many gigahertz, or any of that ultimately nonsensical twaddle. Simplicity, functionality, and design. Does your mom care about what sort of SoC is in her television set? NO. Or that her phone has a chip built on TSMC N3P node? NO.

 

[Dr. Dro]

There are other brands than Apple and Samsung.

Thing is, those two set the trends, the others follow, either by copying them or by sheer market pressure. For example, Samsung made a successful line of foldables, Huawei went and made one that folded thrice just to show them that their technology held up.

Since Sony heavily downsized the Xperia business and withdrew from most of the world, LG's mobile business went bankrupt, Microsoft exited the mobile business after Windows Mobile failed for the nth time, Nokia became a feature phone brand and Huawei got sanctioned to the high heavens, there´s only them and a (moderately large) variety of Chinese brands left. In select markets there are the Google Pixel phones, but they are not available, nor are they fully band compatible worldwide.

Some are better than others (such as Xiaomi's flagship line bearing their name and OnePlus), others indistinctively second-class products (like Motorola phones, notorious for their weak hardware and zero commitment to supporting their devices), but ultimately, the trendsetters are Apple and Samsung, Samsung has the heaviest weight in the Android camp by far, and Apple's complete vertical integration is both its biggest weakness and its biggest strength at the same time.

 

[AusWolf]

Because Android ecosystem is extremely fragmented, manufacturers have no incentive to maintain their devices (quite contrary - besides, they got your money already) and the OS itself is of exceptionally poor quality. Phone manufacturers have thrown hardware at the problem over the years, but until when is that feasible?

In any case, I have many things to say about Android, not a single one of them is nice. Many people don't like being told negative things about their purchasing decisions and that's the sole reason they get away with it. If Android disappeared overnight it'd only have done the world a service. It happened to Symbian, it can happen to Android too, and I'm all too happy to do my part.

You're free to say what you wish about Android, but what's the alternative? iOS running on $1000 phones? Pff, c'mon...

Highly secure and very well maintained for Android phone standards, nothing to complain about. Scamsung gave 3 years to the S10+, and now they claim they will support devices for up to 7 but you only get 3 major Android updates anyway because... you know, an S25 Ultra is a weak device and updating a phone is hard.

My phone doesn't seem to be getting any updates, but I don't complain. I simply don't care. I bought it to use it, not to be looking for updates left and right.

 

[Onasi]

@Dr. Dro
Yeah, the smartphone market is very consolidated by this point. I recently found a catalogue from the early 2000s in my wall closet (02 I think or 03) that a local mobile phone shop was printing and marveled at the ridiculous bounty of choices then. Sure, Nokia and Motorola were sorta dominant, but there were still cool models from Samsung, LG, Sony, Ericsson, then Sony Ericsson together, Siemens, Alcatel, Panasonic, Philips, Benq and so on and so forth. Nowadays it is mostly Apple and Samsung in the mainstream and like 3 big-huge Chinese companies that each has half a dozen sub-brands running everything else.

 

[AusWolf]

@Dr. Dro
Yeah, the smartphone market is very consolidated by this point. I recently found a catalogue from the early 2000s (02 I think or 03) that a local mobile phone shop was printing and marveled at the ridiculous bounty of choices then. Sure, Nokia and Motorola were sorta dominant, but there were still cool models from Samsung, LG, Sony, Ericsson, then Sony Ericsson together, Siemens, Alcatel, Panasonic, Philips, Benq and so on and so forth. Nowadays it is mostly Apple and Samsung in the mainstream and like 3 big-huge Chinese companies that each has half a dozen sub-brands running everything else.

That's only if you're looking at major retailers. You can still find a rare gem on Amazon or the brand's own webshop.

I'm really impressed with my Blackview N6000 despite what I said above about updates.

 

[Onasi]

@AusWolf
Okay, you can also find phones from slightly smaller Chinese companies too, yeah. Wouldn’t say they are mainstream in any way though. Wouldn’t personally go that route since more obscure the brand the less software support you might get, but to each their own. I’ve been on Apple for more than a decade now, works well, no headaches, good support, does all I need. Don’t see a reason to over-complicate a fucking phone purchase for myself - I get it enough with PCs, both personal and all I work with at, well, work.

 

[AusWolf]

@AusWolf
Okay, you can also find phones from slightly smaller Chinese companies too, yeah. Wouldn’t say they are mainstream in any way though. Wouldn’t personally go that route since more obscure the brand the less software support you might get, but to each their own.

Fair enough. To become mainstream, you need to sell your product through mainstream channels. This is what those small Chinese companies are missing.

Personally, I don't see the lack of software support as a problem. I'm not getting updates. So what? My phone still works.

I’ve been on Apple for more than a decade now, works well, no headaches, good support, does all I need. Don’t see a reason to over-complicate a fucking phone purchase for myself - I get it enough with PCs, both personal and all I work with at, well, work.

Apple is overly expensive, and locks you into its own environment. Both are a big no-go for me.

I don't like over-complicating a phone purchase, either. I only need one to stay in touch, maybe shoot some pictures on a holiday, too. A $200 Chinese phone does that just fine.

 

[tabascosauz]

(I do intend to read everything everyone has written here and thanks for the replies but for now just for this comment)
Ok but are you then saying that the Android version running on lets say the pixel, is not compatible with older snapdragon cpu's?

and...would that not actually require work from them to lock out? instead of just incorperating all the hardware to make it easier on themselves.

like Xiaomi has multiple phones they release with multiple hardware setups....are they seriously making a ground up OS for every single phone? that seems like complete waste of time and money.

And if not, that would suggest that I could install the OS from the latest phone from Xiaomi on my older phone right?

If you spend some time in the android dev community (custom roms), you'll begin to appreciate just how much work it is to accommodate all of each device's differences from one another. Even different devices from the same manufacturer diverge in more areas than they share; under a single device model name you can find as many as dozens of different region-specific models, sometimes with SoC and connectivity hardware differences that will further complicate firmware and drivers.

A lot of ROMs are unofficial ports from other devices, and it takes a lot of dedicated work to get all the features and bugs sorted. Upon first release of a ROM it used to be pretty damn lucky just to get "it boots" under the "Works" section, and months to work out full camera functionality (if it ever works). There's just a lot of obstacles in the way that aren't the intentionally evil machinations of some C-suite guy in a corner office somewhere. Knowing that pretty much every ROM for every single device needs a maintainer that both has expertise and is dedicated to that specific device 24/7, you'll start to see why official updates are hard to come by and take so long for manufacturers with a lot of devices to support.

Then add in the fact that a lot of manufacturers aren't even as open to modding in the first place, unlike Xiaomi. That part is intentional.
Wanna streamline updates? Reduce the entire ecosystem of hundreds if not thousands of devices down to like, 5 phones. A la Apple. Everything has benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Dr. Dro]

That's only if you're looking at major retailers. You can still find a rare gem on Amazon or the brand's own webshop.

I'm really impressed with my Blackview N6000 despite what I said above about updates.

There's the issue with some countries banning the entry or operation of unlicensed phones like yours. These devices are AliExpress wonders, but often fail or aren't at all submitted to local radiocommunications authorities for certification. That can be a dealbreaker, leading to complications with import and being incompatible with or refused entry into certain mobile networks.

Cheap, and certainly interesting gizmos (I personally like Blackview's ruggedized phones, despite being Android), but not always the smartest choice, and sadly due to bureaucracy

 

[AusWolf]

There's the issue with some countries banning the entry or operation of unlicensed phones like yours. These devices are AliExpress wonders, but often fail or aren't at all submitted to local radiocommunications authorities for certification. That can be a dealbreaker, leading to complications with import and being incompatible with or refused entry into certain mobile networks.

Cheap, and certainly interesting gizmos (I personally like Blackview's ruggedized phones, despite being Android), but not always the smartest choice, and sadly due to bureaucracy

In that instance, I'd get an el cheapo A-series Samsung for $150. I've been down that route, too, with satisfaction.

Edit: Although, rugged phones have a special place in my heart. I've never understood the purpose of pretty phones made of pretty materials that you hide behind an ugly case anyway.

 

[R-T-B]

Ok but are you then saying that the Android version running on lets say the pixel, is not compatible with older snapdragon cpu's?

Android is fine, it's the supporting driver modules must match the hardware and furthermore be built targeting exactly that android version and kernel. Without drivers android isn't much.

and...would that not actually require work from them to lock out? instead of just incorperating all the hardware to make it easier on themselves.

It's the nature of linux that drivers must target the exact kernel version (for this discussion it means android version). So no. It's actually extra work to make a driver that targets multiple kernels (usually done with an OSS shimloader, see nvidia linux driver) than just one. And as driver vendors are incredibly protective of IP, and want to charge for everything, the only real phones that can be updated easily are non-third party, specifically open hardware (see pixel and some specialty phones for examples).

There isn't much android/google can do to change this beyond what they have done, sadly. Yell at the driver vendors.

 

[freeagent]

Reading this thread makes me appreciate my iPhone

I got my first cell at age 35, it was a 4S.. I just kinda stuck with them..

Only because I knocked her up and we had more than one after haha.

Don't hate me please

At least my current phone has a terabyte.. so that sorta makes it ok..

 

[cvaldes]

Although, rugged phones have a special place in my heart. I've never understood the purpose of pretty phones made of pretty materials that you hide behind an ugly case anyway.

Cases are like clothes or jewelry, they often are chosen because they appeal to the user in some sort of aesthetic or fashion sense. This is particularly noticeable with women (who make up oh about 50% of the world's phone users).

It's not just about protecting your phone from damage.

Now if you don't like the looks of these cases, that's fine, but it's not really your choice. In the same way, I find most of the clothes that most of my fellow Americans wear to be relatively unflattering and uninteresting. But if it works for them, great.

One thing I have noticed is that as a whole smartphone cases are stupidly overpriced in the Western Hemisphere. I always gravitate toward clear plastic cases like this:

Amazon.com

It's $13. In Japan you can find a comparable case at a 100¥ shop like Daiso, about $0.70 at the current exchange rate. And you visit a shop like Yodobashi or Bic Camera and they have hundreds of designs all priced far below their Western equivalents. And boy do the Japanese know something about screen protectors.

Anyhow, the reasons for buying a case aren't always about protection in the same way with clothes. And like with clothes, it's easy to change a phone case. I know people who have a couple for their favorite sports teams when they're in season. And for sure younger users would change these like Fortnite skins if they had the money.

Wetsuit companies sell pink ones to women not because they insulate any better. It's because some of the buyers want color options beyond basic black or dark grey neoprene.

In the end if you're happy with your phone then mission accomplished. I really couldn't care less what other people are using. But they have chosen a path that persuaded Apple to dump smaller phones. I'm bummed about that yet there's nothing I can do; there's no iPhone 16 mini for me to buy. The people voted with their dollars (or euros, pounds, rubles, yen, whatever) and this is where we are.

Go ask Research In Motion what they think about all of this. Do you hear anyone in 2025 begging to shorten their smartphone's display by 1/3 and replace it with a tiny QWERTY keyboard? Yeah, I thought so.

 

[AusWolf]

Cases are like clothes or jewelry, they often are chosen because they appeal to the user in some sort of aesthetic or fashion sense. This is particularly noticeable with women (who make up oh about 50% of the world's phone users).

It's not just about protecting your phone from damage.

Now if you don't like the looks of these cases, that's fine, but it's not really your choice. In the same way, I find most of the clothes that most of my fellow Americans wear to be relatively unflattering and uninteresting. But if it works for them, great.

One thing I have noticed is that as a whole smartphone cases are stupidly overpriced in the Western Hemisphere. I always gravitate toward clear plastic cases like this:

Amazon.com

It's $13. In Japan you can find a comparable case at a 100¥ shop like Daiso, about $0.70 at the current exchange rate. And you visit a shop like Yodobashi or Bic Camera and they have hundreds of designs all priced far below their Western equivalents. And boy do the Japanese know something about screen protectors.

Anyhow, the reasons for buying a case aren't always about protection in the same way with clothes. And like with clothes, it's easy to change a phone case. I know people who have a couple for their favorite sports teams when they're in season. And for sure younger users would change these like Fortnite skins if they had the money.

Wetsuit companies sell pink ones to women not because they insulate any better. It's because some of the buyers want color options beyond basic black or dark grey neoprene.

No, the main reason of a case is still protection, just like you wear clothes to protect yourself from the weather. Aesthetics are important, but secondary. People choose a pretty case because since a case is pretty much necessary, it may as well look as good as possible. But would they still buy one if it wasn't necessary? I don't think so.

In the end if you're happy with your phone then mission accomplished. I really couldn't care less what other people are using. But they have chosen a path that persuaded Apple to dump smaller phones. I'm bummed about that yet there's nothing I can do; there's no iPhone 16 mini for me to buy. The people voted with their dollars (or euros, pounds, rubles, yen, whatever) and this is where we are.

There you go. This is my current phone. I bought it especially because it's small. Like early 2000s small phone small. Ruggedness is a nice bonus.

Go ask Research In Motion what they think about all of this. Do you hear anyone in 2025 begging to shorten their smartphone's display by 1/3 and replace it with a tiny QWERTY keyboard? Yeah, I thought so.

I don't know who they research (never heard of them), but not me apparently. I'd happily give 1/3 of my phone area for a keyboard. I used to have a phone with full qwerty, it was absolutely glorious. It's no secret that I hate typing on a touchscreen. Always have, always will.

 

[blinnbanir]

That's only if you're looking at major retailers. You can still find a rare gem on Amazon or the brand's own webshop.

I'm really impressed with my Blackview N6000 despite what I said above about updates.

Best phone I ever got was from Amazon circa 2015. It had 2 slots for Data cards. The screen was sharp and it cost me $200 CAD. I think it shipped from Singapore. Nevertheless I dropped it getting Gas one day. Now I just buy whatever cheapest phone that satisfies Specs I want. Funny story I got my Daughter a 10" Tablet from Amazon for her Bday and the OS is the exact same as my phone.