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Microsoft Brings DirectX 12 to Windows 7

rtwjunkie

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#26
I was just referring to IF Ms will offer a Full update or rather to some certain games
It’s just specific games. Admittedly that would be nice for 7 users, but it won’t happen.
 
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#27
i remember when ms that it was impossible to get dx 12 on 7. that annoyed me immensely at the time. It seems i got over it though because hearing that you can have dx 12 after all really should aggravate me more than it does. ( i think its because i never believed them to start it)
 

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#28
They can't truly retire DX11 without ridding the entire world of everyone's DX11 games and every copy of those API's on the web. Hell I've got DX9 and some DX10 games I will never part with. And a whole bunch of DX11 games I will not get rid of. If need be, they can all reside on my W8.1 machine which would be disconnected from the internet just so they couldn't patch out my DX11.

The best they can do is hope to encourage all devs throughout the world to only produce games in DX12 and Vulkan. Yeah, I don't see that happening anytime soon. It won't be retired any time soon.
What I meant was that graphics technology has more or less stagnated for the last decade because most developers are still targeting DX11. Microsoft wants developers to target DX12 which means removing barriers to doing so (like abandoning the Windows 7 player base). Of course Microsoft will maintain backwards compatibility.

DirectX 11 isn't going anywhere since 12 is built on top of 11.
D3D12 is to D3D11 as D3D10 is to D3D9.
 
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#29
D3D12 is to D3D11 as D3D10 is to D3D9.
Do you have "DirectX 9.3" mode under DirectX 10 ?
Because I thought there was this DX9.0L that does DX9 stuff on Vista and newer OS and is seperate from DX10 ?
 

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#30
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#31
Damn DX12 is struggling after all.
 

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#33
Damn DX12 is struggling after all.
Vulkan too on PCs. Adoption rate has been as slow as DirectX 10, most likely slower if you consider how many DirectX 12 games actually went low level code like they're supposed to.
 

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#34
DX10 has been ported to XP. DX11 has been ported to Vista. How is DX12 being ported to 7 so impossible? Seriously. :wtf:
It is not, just ms is trying to force obsoletion, also wddm 1.1 can be patched in 7 to update to wddm 2.5 and DX be made w7 compatible fully, just MS don't want to do it.

At this rate I may just contribute to ReactOS development if MS doesn't get a friggin clue that we dont want forced/automatic updates, no apps market, no safemode boot option, default bsod verbosity displayed, Gui customization like in W98SE-XP reinstated.
 

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#35
…also wddm 1.1 can be patched in 7 to update to wddm 2.5...
It cannot. Doing so would utterly break the operating system and a lot of software. WDDM 2.5 in Windows 10 can backwards support WDDM 1.1 hardware so long as a WDDM 2.5 driver for the hardware is provided.
 
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#36
Because it doesnt get broken with updates...
And soon it won't even get updates ;)

I finally read this which contains a quote from presumably the Microsoft lead on this subject ("Max McMullen"). Of most significance to me:

The prevalence of Windows 7 and the need to support it to maximize market exposure is prohibiting the adoption of D3D12. The low-level framework of D3D12 is not backwards compatible with Windows 7 which is stuck on D3D11...

This makes me think that Blizzard only pursued creating a D3D12 renderer because they got assurance from Microsoft that it will benefit Windows 7 gamers too.

...so yeah...look at games like The Division where it claims to be DirectX 12 but there's no performance benefit really to speak of. That's what Microsoft wants to stop. Everyone should be targeting low level APIs (be it D3D12 or Vulkan) so this move is Microsoft trying to make that happen.

Microsoft wants to retire D3D11 and older just as bad as they want to retire Windows 7 but they can't do that when so many people refuse to upgrade to Windows 10 so game developers are put in an awkward position of balancing priorities:.
Interesting. But about MS 'wants'... what they want is often so far from reality, its downright crazy. That started with bundling DX12 with Windows 10, look where we are today. We also vividly remember GFWL... They 'want' to unify Xbox and PC platforms, or at least to some degree bring them together... they 'want' crossplatform. They want all sorts of things but the practical outcome is always a major letdown. They 'wanted' an Xbox bundled only with Kinect and forcing an always online requirement. Woopsie... And what happened to that Windows 10 anti-cheat measure? TruePlay? Its just another example in the near infinite list of MS and gaming failures. It was best described, I think, by the first measure gamers had to do when installing Windows 10: disable the Xbox Game DVR to prevent your games from crashing. That goes right up there in the top 3 along with using Internet Explorer so you can download another browser :D

MS should not want anything, they should be serving the market to their best ability and stop trying to redirect it all the time. That is what they're quite good at. DirectX is still a decent API. Windows is still a decent OS. Stop messing about and let us game :p
 
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#37
Backporting code always costs time and time is money. Microsoft did not and could not anticipate how much resistance there would be to upgrading to Windows 10 especially when it is free and heavily promoted. Then it took two-three years later for developers to complain that Windows 7 is the reason why they aren't embracing D3D12.
 
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#38
Backporting code always costs time and time is money. Microsoft did not and could not anticipate how much resistance there would be to upgrading to Windows 10 especially when it is free and heavily promoted. Then it took two-three years latter for developers to complain that Windows 7 is the reason why they aren't embracing D3D12.
I do think MS could have seen it coming... from miles away, its just another typical example of their reality versus that of the rest of the world. After Windows XP... surely they could have had some idea. But Metro UI resistance and the complete shitstorm that Windows 8 really was and how briefly 10 was released afterwards... I mean come on. It was a mess and 7 was the only safe haven, just like how XP was the safe haven to escape Vista woes. And to be fair, its still a messy affair with regular update issues.

I think you are right about MS being surprised at the backlash to Win 10. I recall when Win 10 launched that MS employees were shocked that there was so much dislike for Win 10.
Yeah its genuine, that is what always surprises me so much about Microsoft. Its like they live in their own little technobubble where everything is like those happy green fields of the Windows XP stock wallpaper. Meanwhile, the numbers never lie :D And to think they are that surprised right after releasing the very same UI in a more tablet-oriented environment while nobody asked for it... is even more staggering. 'Here is the same stuff, we returned some things that we removed before, but that you've always had so now you can upgrade to a new OS that works exactly like what you've had'. Except now we control it. :roll:
 
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#39
Backporting code always costs time and time is money. Microsoft did not and could not anticipate how much resistance there would be to upgrading to Windows 10 especially when it is free and heavily promoted. Then it took two-three years latter for developers to complain that Windows 7 is the reason why they aren't embracing D3D12.
I think you are right about MS being surprised at the backlash for Win 10. I recall when Win 10 launched that MS employees were shocked that there was so much dislike for Win 10.
 

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#40
I do think MS could have seen it coming... from miles away, its just another typical example of their reality versus that of the rest of the world. After Windows XP... surely they could have had some idea. But Metro UI resistance and the complete shitstorm that Windows 8 really was and how briefly 10 was released afterwards... I mean come on. It was a mess and 7 was the only safe haven, just like how XP was the safe haven to escape Vista woes. And to be fair, its still a messy affair with regular update issues.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Windows 10 still the only operating system on the planet that is acceptable for both mouse/keyboard and touch screen support? That's what Windows 8 started by going full touch, then they pulled some Windows 7 mouse and keyboard up with the result being the merger that is Windows 10. Yes, Windows 10 isn't as good as Windows 7 for strictly mouse use. At the same time, Windows 7 absolute sucks for devices like the Surface Pro with a near 4K screen in something like 13". Windows 7 lacks the scaling features required for ridiculous high DPI displays...nevermind touch. Windows 10 isn't perfect by any means but Microsoft did the absolute best they could to unify past versions of Windows...and they gave it away free to boot. Microsoft had the appropriate expectation that Windows 10 would take over. Some people are stubborn...and Microsoft has no obligation to them a decade after the product launched.

No one should ever force a service pack installation unless they're prepared to deal with the consequences if it goes wrong. The twice-yearly updates Windows 10 has been getting are effectively service packs.
 
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#41
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Windows 10 still the only operating system on the planet that is acceptable for both mouse/keyboard and touch screen support? That's what Windows 8 started by going full touch, then they pulled some Windows 7 mouse and keyboard up with the result being the merger that is Windows 10. Yes, Windows 10 isn't as good as Windows 7 for strictly mouse use. At the same time, Windows 7 absolute sucks for devices like the Surface Pro with a near 4K screen in something like 13". Windows 7 lacks the scaling features required for ridiculous high DPI displays...nevermind touch. Windows 10 isn't perfect by any means but Microsoft did the absolute best they could to unify past versions of Windows...and they gave it away free to boot. Microsoft had the appropriate expectation that Windows 10 would take over. Some people are stubborn...and Microsoft has no obligation to them a decade after the product launched.

No one should ever force a service pack installation unless they're prepared to deal with the consequences if it goes wrong. The twice-yearly updates Windows 10 has been getting are effectively service packs.
I don't disagree with you but that is WITH all the knowledge we have about it. General consumers generally don't give a damn about any of this, it just has to work for them, and something that does not change is a very welcome sight in todays' world where almost everything has turned fluid and can be different every day. I get fed up sometimes with the neverending flow of changes, big or small, in software, I can totally understand this sentiment. Because literally everyone with a tiny piece of software is also doing the same thing and barely a day goes by without having to update something.
 
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#42
windows 10 when it works Is absolutely fine "after a bit of tinkering like installing start shell and disabeling some spy-ware I mean telemetry. "
I use windows 7 on laptops or any older system/ones without a 3rd party gpu but 10 on my gaming rig.

but it is a bit shitty ms held dx12 to ransom as a windows 10 only feature for so long and now just before end of support work to push it to windows 7.
It should have been on 7 from the start (and by extension 8/8.1) which would have had game devs more inclined to make dx 12 based games.

I genuinly dont understand why now.
 
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#43
Windows 10 has been installed on hundreds of millions of machines right now according to Microsoft, pretty sure the adoption rate of a compatible platform is no longer the problem of DX12. It's all on the developers right now, Microsoft has done everything we could have reasonably expected them to do.

The only mistake in my view was to fragment the API in feature levels.
 
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#44
And soon it won't even get updates ;)



Interesting. But about MS 'wants'... what they want is often so far from reality, its downright crazy. That started with bundling DX12 with Windows 10, look where we are today. We also vividly remember GFWL... They 'want' to unify Xbox and PC platforms, or at least to some degree bring them together... they 'want' crossplatform. They want all sorts of things but the practical outcome is always a major letdown. They 'wanted' an Xbox bundled only with Kinect and forcing an always online requirement. Woopsie... And what happened to that Windows 10 anti-cheat measure? TruePlay? Its just another example in the near infinite list of MS and gaming failures. It was best described, I think, by the first measure gamers had to do when installing Windows 10: disable the Xbox Game DVR to prevent your games from crashing. That goes right up there in the top 3 along with using Internet Explorer so you can download another browser :D

MS should not want anything, they should be serving the market to their best ability and stop trying to redirect it all the time. That is what they're quite good at. DirectX is still a decent API. Windows is still a decent OS. Stop messing about and let us game :p
W10 is a potato os

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Windows 10 still the only operating system on the planet that is acceptable for both mouse/keyboard and touch screen support? That's what Windows 8 started by going full touch, then they pulled some Windows 7 mouse and keyboard up with the result being the merger that is Windows 10. Yes, Windows 10 isn't as good as Windows 7 for strictly mouse use. At the same time, Windows 7 absolute sucks for devices like the Surface Pro with a near 4K screen in something like 13". Windows 7 lacks the scaling features required for ridiculous high DPI displays...nevermind touch. Windows 10 isn't perfect by any means but Microsoft did the absolute best they could to unify past versions of Windows...and they gave it away free to boot. Microsoft had the appropriate expectation that Windows 10 would take over. Some people are stubborn...and Microsoft has no obligation to them a decade after the product launched.

No one should ever force a service pack installation unless they're prepared to deal with the consequences if it goes wrong. The twice-yearly updates Windows 10 has been getting are effectively service packs.
Which can be patched using a service pack in W7.
 

FordGT90Concept

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#45
The only mistake in my view was to fragment the API in feature levels.
Must be done because older hardware doesn't support newer features. For example, older cards don't support conservative rasterization where newer cards do. These are GPU instructions that simply do or don't exist and the feature level is a simple version to check for support in software.

Which can be patched using a service pack in W7.
Like Windows 7 service packs didn't cause headaches too. The difference: there's only one service pack for Windows 7 because Microsoft moved on to create Windows 8. Windows 10 gets frequent updates because there's no moving on to a new major version of Windows.
 
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#46
Must be done because older hardware doesn't support newer features.
Then wait it out until the hardware supports the things you want. DX12 was meant to be a low level API that reduces CPU overhead, a really major release, this kind of fragmentation couldn't have come at a worse time.
 

eidairaman1

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#47
Must be done because older hardware doesn't support newer features. For example, older cards don't support conservative rasterization where newer cards do. These are GPU instructions that simply do or don't exist and the feature level is a simple version to check for support in software.


Like Windows 7 service packs didn't cause headaches too. The difference: there's only one service pack for Windows 7 because Microsoft moved on to create Windows 8. Windows 10 gets frequent updates because there's no moving on to a new major version of Windows.
Sps werent nearly as bad as fall creators update, v1809 etc etc for W10, plus they couldnt force it on you, see my 2 videos on that, the Guy is MS certed.
 
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#48
It’s just specific games. Admittedly that would be nice for 7 users, but it won’t happen.
Stop speaking in absolutes, you know nothing about what will or will not happen.

The DirectX Technology manager is on beyond3d saying that the game by game basis is a trial with a more general release to come later.

Max McMullen said:
The system constraints in Windows 7, as well as the well aged properties of the ecosystem (just think of all the random drivers & software hooking into bizarre internal methods that were never designed to be touched outside of OS code), are why we’re doing a title by title rollout at first. We need to make sure the experience is a quality one across users, developers, and publishers.

That difference in capability, targeted scenario, driver support, and the complex software environment of an old OS is why 12on7 is being deployed differently - at least initially - than other DirectX updates.
 
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FordGT90Concept

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#49
I think that means they'll publish the D3D12 redist publicly like they do with D3D9 so any developer can use it. I still don't think they're going to update the DirectX version in Windows 7--D3D12 will be bundled with games that can use it on Windows 7 and that's really the extent of it.
 

INSTG8R

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#50
I think that means they'll publish the D3D12 redist publicly like they do with D3D9 so any developer can use it. I still don't think they're going to update the DirectX version in Windows 7--D3D12 will be bundled with games that can use it on Windows 7 and that's really the extent of it.
Yeah I’m thinking it’s gonna be some kinda “wrapper” to go with said games.
 
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