Need amplifier advice

[Frederik S]

I was trying to figure out what he meant by not enough. Not enough volume, not enough bass, not enough detail, there are many ways a system can be not enough.

 

[Jayell]

I have a denon x-4000 and have several speakers hooked up including my polk monitor 70's. I am wanting to put an amp behind my denon that can push my polks and free up some power to my other speakers. I was told by best buy that i need a preamp but i think they are wrong. I am just wanting to spend a few hundred, not a thousand, to get a 4 channel amp that pushes about 150 per. My questions are, do i need a preamp or regular amp? Is it just an rca out from my denon into the amp rca input to get it to work?
Also, does anyone have any suggestions on what amp to use?

I am having to turn my denon up to 40's and 50's in volume to watch a movie or tv show. I meant to say 200 to 250 watt amp with four channels. Each polk speaker has two inputs, i am assuming one terminal powers the tweeter and the other the woofers, so i might only need a 2 channel amp. I have two bose 301's beside the polks and a bic america 6 1/2 center speaker. My denon has shut off a few times after turning it up pretty lowd and just want to make sure i have great sound and not damage my denon. I was hoping that someone would tell me about a specifc amp that only costs a few hundred that would do the job. I didnt want to start an arguement about it. Can anyone tell me a specific amp and also if i need a 2 or 4 channel amp?

 

[EarthDog]

Are you sure the cable box/input audio is turned up all the way? I have a 5.1 system with 100W /channel on about as efficient speakers. When watching a movie at THX levels, I need to turn it up to around 40-45 or so. No audible distortion or clipping. My speakers max input is 225W.

I believe a two channel amp is fine the speakers are just bi amplfied... but this is something that is out of my wheelhouse. I stay awy from bi-amp/wire

 

[revin]

Have you ran the Polk's by them self?
Are you using 1 pair of 70's or ?
I presume you tried using A+B main output?
My VSX39TX will run all 4, two pairs of my 75t's at +10 even maxed out at +12 and it can be very loud at those extreme volumes. Even my 4 modified CS9900E's will go there, but they don't sound as good as the 75t's.
Most multi channel have to give up somewhere to fit in a budget for buyers, just like graphic cards.
I'd look for an older receiver or amp to use from the Denon for the power output.
Just seen your last post, try the Polk's by them self on main LR channel. Just leave the speaker jumpers on doing bi-amp can lead to expensive issues.
See if there is any issue with how loud your trying to get. I can shut mine down if I load all 4 75t's on as 4ohm load at very high volume, it's by design not rated for that much output into the low load. That appears to be what has happened with you.
So you need to see if there is an issue with any of the speakers test them on the main output separately.
This is why manufacture's should not try to ply with the output number's giving the impression there is more power than actually is. They have spent a lot on copyrights an these so they all try to put in a "budget" model in the higher end line thus skimping out on other things like the output ect.

 

[Frederik S]

Sounds like a thermal issue in the amplifier more than anything else. I do not know how old it is but maybe try and blow it free of dust and let it sit in a place where it has ventilation. You can do bi-amping the amplifier supports it and that would give you more power for the Polks. Bi-amping can both be done with or without external cross-over you will need to check the capability of both speaker and amplifier.

I have had several lower end receivers that could play at above 80% more or less all day without issue, so your high-end Denon should definitely be capable of this as well.

 

[m1dg3t]

Bi amp means just that, BI AMP. As in 2. The OP aint close to that. Maybe bi wire, but even then I'd just yank the solid jumper on the binding posts and replace it with 12/14g lamp cord, AKA: speaker wire. I don't think fancy cables is what OP is looking for.

Ferrum Master has given solid advice, AVR/HT receivers are grossly underrated. More channels driven with increased volume and the power/quality drops, because of the nature of the weak/cheap power supply being common to all in/outputs.

OP doesn't need a pre amp, even a used 2ch amp like an old Hafler should do wonders and pair well with those old Polks. Things with independent power rails and/or torroidal transformers are good.

Quality power (amplification) just enhances every aspect of listening.

 

[revin]

grossly underrated.

Overrated as in not close to rated output. some where I think I understood it clipped at 80 watts
Like as has been said these newer AVR have issue's since they have to fit a budget, so more frills means something else must be cut to save cost.
Very few now days have an output that can pushed hard and not suffer. They try to make them look good on paper, but in real world they under perform more closer to rated output.

Sounds like a thermal issue in the amplifier more than anything else

Indeed, thus testing the speakers as I posted to see if the unit can even perform at rated output [0db] with 2 channels.
Also may need to use a fan to cool it to see if that help's, overheating been an issue with them also. Marantz has some very similar setup, same issue.
From the looks of the inside only 1 rail to supply and take out the heat it will have the overheating issue more easily Not even a real heat sink.
Step up to the x4100 night and day difference.
X4000

X4100

As you can see the 4000 are not even directly connected to the heat sink.
Just the change of the way they design any op amp can make a world of difference.

My Pioneer, rated output pretty much the same. The shop found 48 volts from each rail side

 

[Jayell]

I am having to turn my denon up to 40's and 50's in volume to watch a movie or tv show. I meant to say 200 to 250 watt amp with four channels. Each polk speaker has two inputs, i am assuming one terminal powers the tweeter and the other the woofers, so i might only need a 2 channel amp. I have two bose 301's beside the polks and a bic america 6 1/2 center speaker. My denon has shut off a few times after turning it up pretty lowd and just want to make sure i have great sound and not damage my denon. I was hoping that someone would tell me about a specifc amp that only costs a few hundred that would do the job. I didnt want to start an arguement about it. Can anyone tell me a specific amp and also if i need a 2 or 4 channel amp?

What about a pyle pt3300?

 

[INSTG8R]

What about a pyle pt3300?

Yeah that's the kinda thing you're after if your wanting more power.

 

[revin]

What about a pyle pt3300?

That will not be close to what you have available now. That would be good for party's ect, not for home cinema
If the 3300 watts is what you are looking, those power numbers for little price are again the play on the output ratings.
You unit should be working better than what is happing now.
Have you at least tried it with 2 channel to make sure there is not some issue with the speaker or the unit?
You would have better power from getting a used high output amp for couple hundred dollars. Check Craigslist for some local deals.

Have a look about how the power numbers can fool consumers.

 

[revin]

@Jayell Have you tried the speakers on the main L&R channels to see if it will jam now? That should get close to as much volume as I obtain, but certainly it should not be shutting down.
If it can sustain the Polk's, then add the other set on "B" channel and see if it can still reach 0db, or even over with all 4 then we can try to eliminate issue's by process the remaining setup
@Ferrum Master Where will his caps fall in for power capacity?

 

[Jayell]

@Jayell Have you tried the speakers on the main L&R channels to see if it will jam now? That should get close to as much volume as I obtain, but certainly it should not be shutting down.
If it can sustain the Polk's, then add the other set on "B" channel and see if it can still reach 0db, or even over with all 4 then we can try to eliminate issue's by process the remaining setup
@Ferrum Master Where will his caps fall in for power capacity?

Thanks

 

[revin]

Thanks

There's a button for that.
It's been asked a couple times for you to do the testing to try to determine what may be wrong.
Are you just only wanting to throw money after another power unit, or want to see if there is an issue?

 

[Ferrum Master]

[USER=90058]@Ferrum Master Where will his caps fall in for power capacity?

[/USER]

Amp is too young for that. They look fine. 12 000 uF for 600W is enough design wise. The problem lies within a mere transistor pair driving something big. The PSU/bridge and filtering part is done fine. Not Krell style, but fine.

Seconds as the volume gain is logarithimic for his next 3db he needs 50-100W of power just by doing basic math. We stated that this crap Denon doesn't have it what it takes to do so.

OP needs a simple old stereo amp. Garage sales are the best option for those. @Jetster always dig up some old gems.

Or simply take anything decent around 200W per channel.

 

[revin]

Something like this 1980 @Ferrum Master

I figured I'd get you to drool from the good ole days lol

 

[Ferrum Master]

Something like this 1980 @Ferrum Master I figured I'd get you to drool from the good ole days lol

I don't get a drool from these things, proper atheist not only in religion, but also electronics. I can only vouch for things I got in my hands or at least have some objective measurements, not some stupid subjective feelings about the sound like many audio equipment reviewers do and I disrespect those kind really, like preachers. I am an engineer not a consumer, I know what kind of mojo actually pure errors that cause distortion is needed to gain false perception of things... most often mistakes are - like airiness = RF oscillation, rounded sound = voltage sag, mellow sound = pair harmonic distortion etc... If I wish I could fool around.

I do tube amps just because I can (years come and they will disappear at all, the real old NOS parts), not because I adore them, they are simply different for specific task aimed where it shines, not a daily driver. In audio each specific task needs proper equipment, there are no universal things that fits for all, you have to trade something to gain something, but you sacrifice something to gain it.

Seconds amplifier designs, the basics haven't changed mostly for 40 years except Class D and Gainclones. Basic math remains the same. Only thing that comes are more sturdy materials upon you can replace different circuit parts that often did compensations because of that.

That upper thing looks like a simple radio... I needs a lot of work to work again, not worth it, the PCB is very fragile, traces come off after repeated soldering.

 

[revin]

Jeez Ferrum, it's the Pioneer 1980, one the best Receiver's ever made, but thing about the pic was the well abundant output section.
TBH I figured you would have shot off power numbers ect.
I hadn't seen one since early to mid 80's.

Anyway............... Like @m1dg3t said some good ole psu's there's what 275 real rated watts per channel look like even if it's old school.
This would give @Jayell something to think about getting an older power house. They are defiantly worthy.
In fact till this thread, I didn't truly appreciate just how worthy my unit was.
As has been said, his unit should work far better so until he try's what's been posted, or states he just want's other unit ..............................................................................
FWIW your right it took some work but they got it upgraded and going again.

Back to looking on craigslist

 

[Ferrum Master]

Jeez Ferrum, it's the Pioneer 1980, one the best Receiver's ever made, but thing about the pic was the well abundant output section.
TBH I figured you would have shot off power numbers ect.

Back to looking on craigslist

I know what it is... Over-glorified radio... and it really needs a lot of work... the most problematic thing with those old things is transformer mechanical hum... if it does so, you need to change it, all caps, all pots, all op amps and also some transistors, and here also mechanics it is a nightmare to fix them... I hate to stay... but... nope... nothing to adore much.

I'd better take an old rubbish cheap Quad 405 and repair it then...

 

[AsRock]

Does his Denon actually have pre out for front speakers ?, maybe it changeable though the user interface so you loose the front highs to have front b's so to speak.

Not sure about matching but maybe Denon have some thing equivalent to Marantz's MA700's, but what you have now should be driving them pretty good and be careful some types of music will kill them way before their rating.

So if you feel the real need to check what Denon have in terms of Monoblocks, I said the Marantz ones as they are not that expensive if gotten secondhand, about $300 a pair for 2 200w.

But better to check AV forums to see if those will match.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Does his Denon actually have pre out for front speakers ?

Looks like it has. Even a 9.1 or 9.2.

 

[AsRock]

Yeah, although i am hoping he's using at least a good laptop cooler on top of that as if he's having it as loud as he says that HDMI board will go POOF . Seen so many were the heat kills the dsp and other chips on that top board in it.

But yeah looks like it.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Yeah, although i am hoping he's using at least a good laptop cooler on top of that as if he's having it as loud as he says that HDMI board will go POOF .

Don't you like strolls through the cemetery?

 

[Jayell]

There's a button for that.
It's been asked a couple times for you to do the testing to try to determine what may be wrong.
Are you just only wanting to throw money after another power unit, or want to see if there is an issue?

I am wanting an amp to push my polks like they should be. My denon, no matter what we switch or bi-amp isnot enough. I have never bough a home theater amp before and wanted advice on specifically which one to get. I did not want to work on my denon but appreciate the advice.

 

[Seba_82]

Harman & Kardon AVR 165... its nice... buy a old H&K beacause now was acquiered by Samsung.... sorry my few word and bad english...

 

[Ferrum Master]

I am wanting an amp to push my polks like they should be. My denon, no matter what we switch or bi-amp isnot enough. I have never bough a home theater amp before and wanted advice on specifically which one to get. I did not want to work on my denon but appreciate the advice.

What's your budget?

Harman & Kardon AVR 165... its nice... buy a old H&K beacause now was acquiered by Samsung.... sorry my few word and bad english...

Harman isn't Harman for a decade already... from the old bunch i think some Onkyo amps has remained with the old philosophy IMHO.