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NVIDIA GeForce GTX 480 Fermi

Benetanegia

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Ok now I see what you mean. So basically if I got what you're saying, the built in scheduler sucks and does some of the calculations multiple times, thus wasting sp cycles?

NO! Not at all. There's nothing wrong on the scheduler and I never suggested anything similar. But the more parallel an architecture is, the more innefficient it is. That's something inherent to that kind of architecture, but there's nothing wrong there. But you will never reach the same efficiency (efficiency as actual perf/raw perf) of a less parallel architecture, that's why you can't compare AMD's flops with Nvidia's flops.

Regarding AMD cards doing the same calculations multiple times, bear in mind it's just my own speculation and I wasn't saying that in a bad way, it's just my view of how it probably is and a way to explain how AMD use twice as much flops to do the same thing. Often times something is calculated for a shader that is going to be used later, in this case is usual to store it either on the cache or vram (imagine some lighting data that is going to be used as anthe input for HDR, bloom, color correction and whatever filter). My idea is that sometimes (especially if that thing has to be moved to vram) in a chip like AMD's it could be better/faster to calculate some of those things when they are required again, storing it in the SP's registers or L1 cahe, just to use them in the next ready clock cycle, instead of reading the old result stored in L2/vram, because those memories will use more cycles and AMD has spare SPs most of the times anyway. Its architecture favours that kind of brute force programing, while Nvidia's architecture, with its bigger and faster registers and caches, favors the other method. That's not to say Nvdia's method is better as both architecures have been trading blows depending on the generation. Ati's method lets them pack more raw Gflops in the same die area or transistor budget, but they can't be used as efficiently and Nvidia's are efficient, but take more space. As I said, looking back at the performance to transistor ratio, both have been pretty close. Take into account that although G92 and GT200 had more transistors than RV670 and 770, the competing products GTX260 and 8800GT had many clusters disabled. If Nvidia had made them that size i.e 216 SPs/28 ROPs instead of 240/32 it would have been pretty much the same size as RV770.
 
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OMGOMGOMGOGMOGM Best review EVUR, i love this review and I want to print it and sleep next to it, and thats no sarcasm...
 
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NO! Not at all. There's nothing wrong on the scheduler and I never suggested anything similar. But the more parallel an architecture is, the more innefficient it is. That's something inherent to that kind of architecture, but there's nothing wrong there. But you will never reach the same efficiency (efficiency as actual perf/raw perf) of a less parallel architecture, that's why you can't compare AMD's flops with Nvidia's flops.

Regarding AMD cards doing the same calculations multiple times, bear in mind it's just my own speculation and I wasn't saying that in a bad way, it's just my view of how it probably is and a way to explain how AMD use twice as much flops to do the same thing. Often times something is calculated for a shader that is going to be used later, in this case is usual to store it either on the cache or vram (imagine some lighting data that is going to be used as anthe input for HDR, bloom, color correction and whatever filter). My idea is that sometimes (especially if that thing has to be moved to vram) in a chip like AMD's it could be better/faster to calculate some of those things when they are required again, storing it in the SP's registers or L1 cahe, just to use them in the next ready clock cycle, instead of reading the old result stored in L2/vram, because those memories will use more cycles and AMD has spare SPs most of the times anyway. Its architecture favours that kind of brute force programing, while Nvidia's architecture, with its bigger and faster registers and caches, favors the other method. That's not to say Nvdia's method is better as both architecures have been trading blows depending on the generation. Ati's method lets them pack more raw Gflops in the same die area or transistor budget, but they can't be used as efficiently and Nvidia's are efficient, but take more space. As I said, looking back at the performance to transistor ratio, both have been pretty close. Take into account that although G92 and GT200 had more transistors than RV670 and 770, the competing products GTX260 and 8800GT had many clusters disabled. If Nvidia had made them that size i.e 216 SPs/28 ROPs instead of 240/32 it would have been pretty much the same size as RV770.

Ok once you put it that way, it makes a lot more sense :)
 
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OMGOMGOMGOGMOGM Best review EVUR, i love this review and I want to print it and sleep next to it, and thats no sarcasm...

It's an excellent review as I stated in previous posts.

But allow the 'child' in me to speak: Now I detest fermi more than ever.
:banghead:

And that means a lot since I've always used Nvidia cards these past... 15 years... and bought my very first ATI a couple of months ago.
So no, it's not fanboism speaking here.
:(
 

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Your kidding right? :wtf: :mad:

No, I'm not.

There's 700 posts in this thread and I'm not gonna plow through them all to get up to speed - would you?

I'd still like to know and if you want to reply by PM to avoid flames (there's enough on here) I'd be grateful. :toast:
 

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No, I'm not.

There's 700 posts in this thread and I'm not gonna plow through them all to get up to speed - would you?

I'd still like to know and if you want to reply by PM to avoid flames (there's enough on here) I'd be grateful. :toast:

Check the front page. www.techpowerup.com
 
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you just don't get it. How about compassion or constructive criticism?

Please don't kick the guy when he is down:(

You had the review and the place to complain.....all brought to you by the guy who has been told pretty much that he knows nothing about what he does.

As a reviewer I take all criticism to heart. I put hard time and effort into everything I turn in, in essence its a little piece of me.

If you don't like the review or the way it was done, I completely get that, just don't disrespect the man or rub your muddy shoes throughout his house;)

A+ Man. So far, all of the reviews I have read from W1zz were great. TPU as a whole is also great as it persuaded me to get an HD5770 instead of waiting for Fermi in all its lateness.
-
W1zz, I have never once been critical of you or your reviews, many of us haven't but the few that have, you are letting them get to you.

Look at the bigger picture W1zz, you helped save me $300+, so how many other people have you saved from the hassle of buying a crap product? Helped launch products into the mainstream? Helped kill bad products?

Thats all I got to say, If this is real, which I feel it is... Hope you hand the site to a good runner-up.
 
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Come on Wizz you have to stay with us I love what you've done with this site and you can't give up on your work now...
 

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Check the front page. www.techpowerup.com

Jeez, I hadn't seen that. That's a real shame. :( W1zz makes for a great admin and Im sorry that a bunch of bickering, sniping posters had this effect on him.

I think this feeling must have been building up for a while now, through various negative experiences on the forum though - someone doesn't leave a site he founded after just one lousy thread.

Added this:

what do you think i have been doing for the past 7 years? it's just now that i realized that people here can never be pleased ... i feel like i am wasting my precious time and will go do something else

Well, I have always been happy with your reviews and I know most others here appreciate them, too. I can't believe people made such a fuss over the driver version for the ati cards. In the end, it was only a 2% difference! Hardly worth getting knickers in a twist over. :rolleyes: I'm sure W1zz had a good technical reason to go with the older driver.

I've always used yours as a benchmark to compare others with. Yours are the ones I quote when discussing graphics cards.

Respect to The Man. :respect: :rockout:
 
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dir_d, you should be banned. its people like you that don't appreciate how much w1z puts into this website. and bc of members with your disrespect w1z has run his course. There isn't a dam thing wrong with the review. In fact the only flaws i've ever found in w1z's reviews have been occasional typo's, so in reality nothing. You Find another review of the GTX 480/70 that covers and provides as much information as w1z's n then you can say something.
 
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It's an excellent review as I stated in previous posts.

But allow the 'child' in me to speak: Now I detest fermi more than ever.
:banghead:

And that means a lot since I've always used Nvidia cards these past... 15 years... and bought my very first ATI a couple of months ago.
So no, it's not fanboism speaking here.
:(

I usually do let the child in me speak. And i was trying to save something for all its worth.
 
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good review as always ;)
 
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Thanks for that Fits, but I don't think some of these people understand anything that you just said. You seem to really like the NV side of things(judging from all the cards you've had and conversations with you) and you were able to tell it how it really is. However, it's not ATI's fault that they had time to put a more finesse touch on their drivers due to releasing earlier than NV did. Still, I'm glad you sploded on all the assholes that don't understand some of those points you made.

Very nice review W1zzard, as thorough as can be, as usual!
 

Fitseries3

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look through this thread....


93% of the people bitching about what drivers were used to test ATI cards are owners of mid to low end ATI cards.

why? cause they are "fanboys" and want to see nvidia beat by ATI even if they dont have THE ATI card that is beating nvidia's offerings.

another statistic...

89% of the people in this thread bitching about heat and/or temps of the gtx480 dont currently own a GPU that gets even near as hot... most own older ATI and Nvidia G92/G94 cards that dont get very hot.

so why they bitching? because they probably havent ever owned a card that runs hotter than 65c on air.



and the best thing i've seen all day....

EVGA did a test with gtx480 on stock air and another gtx480 with their hyrdocopper waterblock with a typical waterloop.

results?

GTX 470
Load Heatsink: 83c
Load Waterblock: 38c

GTX 480
Load Heatsink: 95c
Load Waterblock: 49c


http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=271190



so that tells me that the stock HDT cooler fucking sucks.
 
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At 1.35 volts and a 1.6v Phenom II before that in the loop my 5870 at almost 1100Mhz core only runs 42C

480 is a hot bitch. This was even stated by the man who actually had it, tested it, and tried it.


Have you?
 

Fitseries3

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it is hot but that is to be expected with new tech that hasnt had time to mature.
 
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6 months isn't time? Give me all your money for 6 months I will tell you your investment hasn't had time to mature, give it more time.


fanboi
 

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and the best thing i've seen all day....

EVGA did a test with gtx480 on stock air and another gtx480 with their hyrdocopper waterblock with a typical waterloop.

results?

GTX 470
Load Heatsink: 83c
Load Waterblock: 38c


GTX 480
Load Heatsink: 95c
Load Waterblock: 49c



Wow . . .

Those are drastic differences.

I wonder, though, if those results are legit, and not fudged by "lab environment" testing . . . or if perhaps the cooler is more of a "reference" design. It's a little unusual for the branded companies to have a "performance cooler" setup so soon to release - especially before the series release. It kinda leaves me to figure that the vendors knew of the thermal issues well in advance - especially if they've had enough time to design alternative coolers.

Just my musings . . .
 

Fitseries3

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6 months isn't time? Give me all your money for 6 months I will tell you your investment hasn't had time to mature, give it more time.


fanboi

there is no schedule for when the next gpu HAS TO come out. it happens when it happens.

and no matter what anyone thinks... i am not a nvidia fanboy.

i have had just as many ATI cards as i have Nvidia cards.

i am currently hunting for some ATI 5k cards to play with.
 
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Other than broken promises, constantly changing specs, and a final release that ATI could have done with the 5870, pump more volts, and heat it up more. I assure you almost every chip could have made a 1Ghz 5870 at 1.25 volts and been still cooler than fermi, pushing performance up in step with core speed as is shown in every 5870 review. At 1062 I beat a 480 by a decent margin, and still spent less with a game included. I could hit that on air with the same noise and heat a 480 makes.


Those in the know, just know fermi sucks unless you plan on some massive cooling. I really still want one to play with, try a 437W TEC and dedicated water loop on it. Or phase. I believe with LN you could even hit 900 on the core, just who is going to have the balls to solder PSU mains to the board to do it?
 

Fitseries3

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so lets say ATI wins this round of the battle...

thats 1 in what.... 12?

again... im not a fanboy but dont make judgement until the product hits retail.

and why does it matter that the specs changed?

if you are in competition with someone who in their right mind would want any specs to get to their competitors? they shouldnt let us know any details until the days its launched.
 
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The RAGE and the like were a poor mans 3D solution as ATI was in its infancy. I will give you that point. But......

8500 http://www.guru3d.com/review/ati/radeon8500/

Wait, does that look like...tessellationtruform. Something that nvidia put pressure on devs not to use. Close performance to the Ti, and got better.


The 9000 series raped Nvidia, twice. As a 9600, 9800 owner I know how well they performed.

The X800XT and the setup for that was a huge push for this site, the BIOS modding for unlocks and overclocking potential.

X1800XT when released, shortly followed by X1900 series were the fastest cards. (Also almost the loudest!)


A fail with 2900, mediocrity with the 3XXX series and performance per dollar dominance for the 4XXX series, continued to the 5XXX series.


So 1 to 12, no, about even with ATI bringing lots of other new features, and forcing nvidia to play catchup. ATI rage theater.
 
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Probably the best magazine for professionals in Germany has reviewed the Geforce GTX 480, too... and they are writing: "Die GeForce GTX 480 besitzt einen sechs- und einen achtpoligen Stromanschluss und soll laut Nvidia maximal 250 Watt aufnehmen. In unseren Messungen traten jedoch sogar Spitzen von bis zu 302 Watt auf."

Translated this means: "The Geforce GTX 480 uses one six and one eight pin powerplug and should use a maximum of 250 Watts according to Nvidia. We measured up to 302 Watts in our tests".

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Nvidia-praesentiert-GeForce-GTX-470-und-GTX-480-965390.html


Case closed.
 
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