nvme storage + airport X ray?

[Ferrum Master]

Mates,

Has anyone carried them around in baggage while traveling more often?

I am planning a longer trip, and I want a lightweight backup storage to dump my camera RAW's as I will be short on SD my storage. So I've got a JMS583 based USB to nvme solution in a proper metal housing and borrow my main second drive, albeit I am still concerned about the data.

I've tried to google about exactly nvme drive data durability though x ray and got mixed results. Yes SD Cards and USB dongles claim to be protected, but not much on a m.2 drive.

Any real experience?

 

[bonehead123]

With the way things are nowadays at Airports, I would be more concerned about the metal enclosure being flagged as a possible explosive device/weapon....

I don't know about the xray thing, but would check with the manufacturer for specific info on this. New drives are shipped through the post office & xrayed all the time, at least in the US.... but of course they don't contain anyone's data either....

 

[tabascosauz]

Here's my take:

NVMe M.2 drives comprise a controller and (typically) 3D TLC packages on one or both sides, which is identical to SATA M.2 drives. SATA M.2 drives are, in turn, just 2.5" hardware crammed onto a smaller PCB. M.2 doesn't usually have a metal casing like 2.5", but one's PC case or M.2 enclosure is. Moreover, a lot of cheap 2.5" drives aren't even encased in metal.

My rig is specifically built to fly. After all the flights it's been through, the drives (a MX300, 850 EVO, SSD 530, and a Fury (Sandforce like the 530, I think)) haven't had any problems. The only damage suffered was the physical loss of a non-critical corner of the SATA power connector on the 850 while one of my rebuilds. All are still going strong in different PCs.

Add to that the fact that I've had SSDs come in or put in every single one of my laptops, which have also seen the same amount of travel as the desktop. All of them are just fine. Not all of those laptops have aluminium bottoms, and two are M.2-powered.

What I would be more worried about is data retention, especially since those portable drives aren't in a laptop where they receive battery power, or a desktop that gets plugged in again at the destination. SSDs are almost never widely tested for data loss after being separated from DC power for extended periods of time. External hard drives have traditionally been mechanical, and don't suffer from this issue.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Not all of those laptops have aluminium bottoms, and two are M.2-powered.

Good point, laptops do travel often and are scanned, and they aren't shielded in any way, but xray still would go through. Haven't heard about scandals about data loss.

About the data loss topic due to age, I have lanparty pc's that get powered like once in year with my old used stuff. They reside 950Pro drive, no problems whatsoever. I've have some old Crucial M4 64GB in the shed, that wasn't touched for two years, no problems... also I have a bootable USB drive 512MB... containing BIOS images formatted in 2005 and used more rare than once a year... it still lives.

With the way things are nowadays at Airports, I would be more concerned about the metal enclosure being flagged as a possible explosive device/weapon...

No probs don't exaggerate... Last time i was asked to show up, when carrying preamp tubes and to confirm if they really are those tubes, as they look funny in the xray, as it turned out, the chap was just curious about them as such. More concern is about batteries and power banks these days, those get checked really strictly.

BTW I've mailed Samsung support about this, no answer so far.

EDIT.
Got an answer, support guy mentioned also the laptop example. But no documentation or specs that really says nay or yay. Oh well...

 

[tabascosauz]

Good point, laptops do travel often and are scanned, and they aren't shielded in any way, but xray still would go through. Haven't heard about scandals about data loss.

About the data loss topic due to age, I have lanparty pc's that get powered like once in year with my old used stuff. They reside 950Pro drive, no problems whatsoever. I've have some old Crucial M4 64GB in the shed, that wasn't touched for two years, no problems... also I have a bootable USB drive 512MB... containing BIOS images formatted in 2005 and used more rare than once a year... it still lives.

No probs don't exaggerate... Last time i was asked to show up, when carrying preamp tubes and to confirm if they really are those tubes, as they look funny in the xray, as it turned out, the chap was just curious about them as such. More concern is about batteries and power banks these days, those get checked really strictly.

BTW I've mailed Samsung support about this, no answer so far.

It might have to get to someone rather far up the support chain before you can get an actual answer regarding lesser known issues like this one.

I was also going to add that everything going through the X-ray machine tends to be exposed. Laptops out of carrying sleeves, and desktops out of their Pelican cases. When you think about it like that, a thin layer of SECC steel, brushed aluminium, or plastic isn't too much protection against ionizing radiation. Perhaps the NAND controllers are smart enough nowadays to deal with any corruption that might arise in the same manner they would a bad block?

Funnily enough, the very first time I flew with my desktop, it was flagged to be swabbed for explosives. It was in an SG08 and the panel could easily come off with thumbscrews to peer inside, I mean, but okay.........

 

[Deleted member 158293]

IMO backup everything on the cloud or your own server. It's hard to pinpoint x-rays, or repeated x-rays as the cause for nand cell degredation, I'd be VERY curious to see a study like that also.

All I can say is I've had to replace dozens of SD cards and usb sticks over the years, as well as a couple SSDs & nvme drives from my travel gear. 1 scan might be okay, but multiples per week/months I'm not so sure and curious on.

 

[Ferrum Master]

IMO backup everything on the cloud or your own server. It's hard to pinpoint x-rays, or repeated x-rays as the cause for nand cell degredation, I'd be VERY curious to see a study like that also.

All I can say is I've had to replace dozens of SD cards and usb sticks over the years, as well as a couple SSDs & nvme drives from my travel gear. 1 scan might be okay, but multiples per week/months I'm not so sure and curious on.

Agh... I've just googled this one... not very good looking info... damn...

Impact of X-Ray Exposure on a Triple-Level-Cell NAND Flash

The total ionizing dose response of a triple-level-cell (TLC) NAND flash is shown to be low enough that data corruption can occur as a result of an x-ray inspection. Only a few seconds of x-ray exposure corresponding to a total dose of merely 50 rad(Si) in a real-time x-ray source are required...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1809/1809.08520.pdf

I am visiting US(Miami) and dumping a raw image archive around 256-512GB to the cloud leave up questions and hurdles, I will do it as much I can, but still I need a hard copy just in case. Interesting topic really. It seems it leaves some damage for sure. As usual - the thinner the process the more suspectable to damage they are...

Funnily enough, the very first time I flew with my desktop, it was flagged to be swabbed for explosives. It was in an SG08 and the panel could easily come off with thumbscrews to peer inside, I mean, but okay.........

Roger that... a small screwdriver should be also carried lol.

Last issue was with a power bank for a mate. It was used for awhile and the markings have worn off, thus you couldn't see the capacity anymore... well had to dump it just because of that.

 

[tabascosauz]

Agh... I've just googled this one... not very good looking info... damn...

Impact of X-Ray Exposure on a Triple-Level-Cell NAND Flash

The total ionizing dose response of a triple-level-cell (TLC) NAND flash is shown to be low enough that data corruption can occur as a result of an x-ray inspection. Only a few seconds of x-ray exposure corresponding to a total dose of merely 50 rad(Si) in a real-time x-ray source are required...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1809/1809.08520.pdf

I am visiting US(Miami) and dumping a raw image archive around 256-512GB to the cloud leave up questions and hurdles, I will do it as much I can, but still I need a hard copy just in case. Interesting topic really. It seems it leaves some damage for sure. As usual - the thinner the process the more suspectable to damage they are...

Roger that... a small screwdriver should be also carried lol.

Last issue was with a power bank for a mate. It was used for awhile and the markings have worn off, thus you couldn't see the capacity anymore... well had to dump it just because of that.

I had forgotten what I was about to say, but remembered after you mentioned that. Both power loss and write endurance came into the spotlight after TLC entered the picture, for good reason. That study seems to confirm my suspicions that denser NAND doesn't like X-rays much.

On my previous point, it seems that a layer of aluminium or steel actually provides more protection against ionizing radiation (save for gamma, obviously lol) than I had previously thought. So that aluminium external enclosure or PC case is actually quite useful.

 

[AsRock]

Yeah i be concerned about the metal casing, how ever Rossmann was on about some Macs being banned from planes not to long ago and cannot help thinking their might be other items that are too. I believe it's due to battery's so maybe check with your airport ?.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Yeah i be concerned about the metal casing, how ever Rossmann was on about some Macs being banned from planes not to long ago and cannot help thinking their might be other items that are too. I believe it's due to battery's so maybe check with your airport ?.

Those were blacklisted devices... well I am not an apple user.

MacBook Pro flight ban: everything you need to know

How to travel safely with your MacBook Pro

www.techradar.com

Need to do research about the shield... it kinda explains why laptop HDD cages had foil like shield bracket, it really ain't for thermals, as there was no flow... but prolly actually for xray protection.

 

[Nuke Dukem]

Don't worry about your drives, man. I have years of experience in the field. Some of my colleagues use laptops (some of them equipped with SSDs) that go through the X-ray machines daily (some even multiple times a day) and those laptops are running just fine. Some of those have seen the inside of an X-ray machine probably more than 1000 times - no issues reported. I've ran the same phone and tablet through one on semi-daily basis for 3-4 years, too - so far no issues.

I don't know about protection, but unless the metal is a few millimeters thick the X-rays penetrate the laptop enough to have a relatively good look at what's inside - enough that you can make out the individual flash chips of the SSD.

That said, if you're paranoid about your data, just back it up. I would personally be more afraid of the tray with the laptop falling off the X-ray machine conveyor rollers and hitting the ground...

 

[Ferrum Master]

Don't worry about your drives, man.

Better safe than sorry.

But thanks man, thats real no BS info, appreciate.

 

[Steevo]

Here's my take:

NVMe M.2 drives comprise a controller and (typically) 3D TLC packages on one or both sides, which is identical to SATA M.2 drives. SATA M.2 drives are, in turn, just 2.5" hardware crammed onto a smaller PCB. M.2 doesn't usually have a metal casing like 2.5", but one's PC case or M.2 enclosure is. Moreover, a lot of cheap 2.5" drives aren't even encased in metal.

My rig is specifically built to fly. After all the flights it's been through, the drives (a MX300, 850 EVO, SSD 530, and a Fury (Sandforce like the 530, I think)) haven't had any problems. The only damage suffered was the physical loss of a non-critical corner of the SATA power connector on the 850 while one of my rebuilds. All are still going strong in different PCs.

Add to that the fact that I've had SSDs come in or put in every single one of my laptops, which have also seen the same amount of travel as the desktop. All of them are just fine. Not all of those laptops have aluminium bottoms, and two are M.2-powered.

What I would be more worried about is data retention, especially since those portable drives aren't in a laptop where they receive battery power, or a desktop that gets plugged in again at the destination. SSDs are almost never widely tested for data loss after being separated from DC power for extended periods of time. External hard drives have traditionally been mechanical, and don't suffer from this issue.

I have had memory corruption in a phone from airport x-rays, never a laptop though.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I can't believe this discussion is happening again.

No, airport X-Ray scanners will NOT damage computer storage devices, nor will it corrupt any data stored on them. Even if you fly every day. This includes SSDs (of all kinds), flash drives (all kinds), hard drives and even floppy disks - which are only affected by magnetic fields.

The field strength of the X-Ray machines used at airports is just too low. When you start to see TSA agents in full lead suits, then, maybe, you should worry.

There is a much greater chance your laptop, tablet or data storage device will be dropped, lost, stolen, or have sugared coffee spilled on it.

Oh, and aluminum does not block x-rays. Yes, it will attenuate the signal strength, but only a little unless it is several inches thick. But that's the same for solid wood and other materials too. In any event, pretty sure air port X-ray scanners scan from top down.

Agh... I've just googled this one... not very good looking info... damn...

Did you read your articles? The first talks about "high radiation environments" and "circuit board inspections". Air port X-Ray machines do NOT produce "high radiation". Circuit board inspections - done to detect micro-fractures and other microscopic defects - are done in laboratory and manufacturing environments, again with high level radiation, not low levels as found in airports and other "security" environments.

Your .pdf document clearly points out that study is to determine if flash devices are suitable for persona dosimeter devices - "safety" devices used to detect if a person receives "high levels" of X-Rays - again, not the type used in airports. And that .pdf goes on to say that Flash chips are sensitive enough to low radiation doses such as 100 rad.

As seen by this MIT paper, for x-rays and gamma rays, 1 rad = 1 rem = 10 mSv.

100 rad = 100,000 mrem.

As reported by the FDA here, the typical dose received by objects scanned is 1 mrad or less.

As seen here, the average commercial airplane flight (one way) = 4 mrem or 4 millirem. That means your body gets 4 times more radiation from the sun when flying in the airplane than your SSD got under the scanner.

Better safe than sorry.

Of course! So as always, keep backups of your data - just in case your laptop or storage device is dropped, lost, infected by malware, stolen, or falls in the toilet.

 

[Ferrum Master]

I can't believe this discussion is happening again.

Why not. I don't care for for the device damage this time, than the data loss possibility due to progress of technology. TLC is more prone. Actually I found out with NASA documents that floating gate Samsung 3D NAND tech is more durable.

You answered it yourself.

Oh, and aluminum does not block x-rays. Yes, it will attenuate the signal strength

The problem is the ionization that can trigger a shift in the cell. Actually exactly during manufacturing and then scanning, shielding is used, to lower cell damaging risk. There are many tricks. I don't care for the human related health risks and thus deviated values(dose) and devices used in the measurement and with TSA at the front. It is about NAND cell health. There is strangely almost like propaganda quality amount of information. There are complaints thou... it not all white and black as always. I've heard about boot looped phones often after inspections, as mobile NAND has even lower voltage states and huuugely lower life time than desktop parts.

I've dig through many documents today, there is a lot uncertainly. Not all memory is made equal, some may be prone some not. Often high energy is not needed even. The airport scanners can shoot 180KeV at max two times with classic 2D tech.

We can all guess actual truth from the test evaluation documents during manufacture and quality testing.

It all depends on the amount of energy. And first of all not damaging, but changing the stored bit data. The recommendation of use less than 50KeV vs the 180KeV shot. The tube for airport scanners is usually about 3mA, the document debates about 20-40uA current. Considering the range of the scanner yes, but also the fact that airport needs to penetrate more thick things to see if the laptop doesn't have some bomb there... well...

https://www.cypress.com/file/202521/download

I cannot objectively say 100% yes or no unlike you. It doesn't do harm for us people, yes, sure... but corrupt memory... ? I am not certain, just as the resume says.

Due to the variability in Flash silicon, X-ray spectrums and X-ray equipment capabilities, it is not possible to provide specific guidelines on acceptable and unacceptable X-ray exposure criteria, e.g. maximum safe dose rate, maximum safe exposure time, etc....

 

[sneekypeet]

Simple solution..... go wherever, take pics, offload to backup, ship backup home.

 

[Ferrum Master]

ship backup home.

Ehrm, and how's that will help... containers have even more powerful scanners... if you mean by sea. It still will fly and will get scanned even more times at each facility, DHL, customs etc... Didn't get the idea.

 

[64K]

hmmm well how about emailing the pictures to yourself and then move them to storage when you get back? Or if you or someone you know has a DVD player connected to a PC then mail the pictures back home on a DVD and then copy to your preferred medium of storage?

If someone tells me that they x-ray emails too then I am just going to go lie down in the street and wait for a bus to run over me.

 

[sneekypeet]

A cloud service would be the best solution for sure.

I think OP is overly worried, as people go through airports with all sorts of PC goodies and they come out fine.
Think about it for a second.....
All these companies that attend CES and Computex, how do you think all the NVME storage at the show got there?

 

[AsRock]

Those were blacklisted devices... well I am not an apple user.

MacBook Pro flight ban: everything you need to know

How to travel safely with your MacBook Pro

www.techradar.com

Need to do research about the shield... it kinda explains why laptop HDD cages had foil like shield bracket, it really ain't for thermals, as there was no flow... but prolly actually for xray protection.

And i am not a mind reader, have a good'un

 

[remixedcat]

hmmm well how about emailing the pictures to yourself and then move them to storage when you get back? Or if you or someone you know has a DVD player connected to a PC then mail the pictures back home on a DVD and then copy to your preferred medium of storage?

If someone tells me that they x-ray emails too then I am just going to go lie down in the street and wait for a bus to run over me.

RAW image projects can often exceed a DVD-RW's capacity. I've worked some 10-15GB ones.

Email attachments have limits. You gotta pay 15/mo for dropbox plus or office365 1TB. I'd also be wary of trusting those with sensitive info... If they can easily fingerprint and flag copyright crap they can easily also scan images too and either flag or resell to others.

 

[Ferrum Master]

I tend to shoot 5-10GB of RAW per day and in 3 weeks I will hit a ceiling.

Sitting in a foreing country pushing half TB to the cloud? Burning loads of DVD's and ship them? It would take half a day.

I am not paranoid, I am reconsidering info and exchanging ideas and seek to be sure to have more down to earth view, not only black or white.

After this Renesas guideline there is no denying about possible issues. Also that shield must be used and also it provides more honest scanner power level details.

Kingston also advises some points and concerns. Especially with CF.

Caring for your Flash Memory - Kingston Technology

To minimize data loss and ensure the best results from your Kingston Flash storage device, follow these simple recommendations:

www.kingston.com

I didn't know that I could ask it to be treated as unprocessed film that does get damaged under any xray scan and ask for hand check, it is an exlusion for photo gear.

Well we can end on that. Thanks who helped.

 

[Bill_Bright]

You answered it yourself.

That did not answer anything. Just because the thin layer of aluminum does not block X-Rays, that does NOT mean the radiation that gets through will damage the memory devices or corrupt the data being stored on them. And again - to address the part I also said you conveniently omitted - pretty sure TSA scanners scan from the top. And if not, there is nothing preventing anyone from putting the notebook on the scanner bed upside down. So any layer of aluminum on the bottom of some notebooks is pointless anyway - in terms of protecting from this type of radiation.

I cannot objectively say 100% yes or no unlike you.

And yet your own Kingston white paper you linked to is pretty clear.

Tens of millions of Flash storage devices are in use worldwide and there have been no verifiable reports of Flash storage damage due to airport X-ray scanners.

A 2004 study by the International Imaging Industry Association (I3A) verified that today's airport X-ray machines do not appear to be a risk to flash memory cards.

According to the CompactFlash Association, X-ray scanners at airports will not damage CompactFlash cards

I will note, however, that same article reported scanners operated by the U.S. Postal Service may damage them. So the lesson learned by your own reference is to carry your solid state storage devices on the plane with you. Don't ship them by mail.

 

[Ferrum Master]

So any layer of aluminum on the bottom of some notebooks is pointless anyway - in terms of protecting from this type of radiation.

You didn't get the idea again. It is about reducing energy, it really has high dose rate at short burst(two actually). Exactly in what those covers around hard drives are covered? Or you read only what you like to read. I was right about the covers being a radiation shield for laptop drives used since ages. Thus the rare fault rates there, well thought out. I don't know why you mentioned the scanner placement or whatever... Now they use mostly backscatter scanner... well at least in the US with some cartoonish filter at the top for not seeing private parts if you are about the used for humans. EU has banned human scans in airports in 2011. X-Ray scans are only made for medical purpose here. Due this health risk controversy... the information is feels kinda... retushed.

Back to device protection from Renesas.

Shielding and PC board solutions.
The FGA package leadframe plus two planes of copper provide an excellent shield for radiation from one direction as shown in Table 5 on page 4. Protection for the device side of the board must also be considered. A shield of zinc foil or sheet, 250µm minimum can be placed inside the enclosure above the FGA which effectively filters the most damaging energy. An alternative to consider is a thick aluminum sheet, 10mm or greater, placed over the device side of the PC board.

Bare drive converters to USB, flash drives, from plastic, without copper/zinc foil shielding has a greater data corruption risk. Case closed, look at your backup device and decide if to trust it.

Also you forget those TSA docs are old. 2004 and actually high tech process SLC vs MLC/TLC are more durable, and commercial SSD's in 2004?? Sure... . Current generation of memory cells made in sub 20nm process holding more and finer energy states are not really tested toughly by anybody actually for domestic needs, IC evaluation is done for space and military, it seems no one cares about consumer segment minor problems, those IC's often even doesn't have extended datasheets, you are holding to and expired document and bashing it as an ultimate truth. Meanwhile other show, even during the same era researches, that there are measurable effects and damage probability. Do you have TSA research data concerning modern technology storage devices that have popped up like in last few years? Could it even have worthy data due lack of time?

Also Kingston still added to use precaution, you skipped on that in the quote. We actually do not know what kind of scanners power wise are really used now..

tl;dr
It is stated not to put memory devices to your additional baggage as that is being scanned also with more power(same as doing a postage) and risk gradually increases varying of the NAND technology itself. Memory drives should be taken with your hand baggage or asked for manual inspection to avoid scanning at all as it is allowed as an exception for photo gear.

 

[Bill_Bright]

You didn't get the idea again. It is about reducing energy,

No it is you who doesn't get it! It seems it is you who only reads what you want to hear. Even on notebooks that have the aluminum plate on the bottom, that plate does absolutely nothing for blocking or attenuating X-rays coming from above the notebook.

Exactly in what those covers around hard drives are covered?

Hard drives? Come on! Now you are being silly. Those covers around hard drives are there to block "magnetic" radiation, not RF. Why? Because hard drives work by the R/W head "magnetically" aligning "magnetic" particles on the platters so they represent a 1 or a 0.

If X-rays destroyed "magnetically" recorded data, the magnetic strip on all your credit cards (which have no metal shielding) would be wiped out with just a single scan. I would expect the totally exposed "chip" on newer credit cards too. Not to mention all our RFID tags.

We actually do not know what kind of scanners power wise are really used now..

Sure we do. That is not top secret information. OSHA and other public safety and watchdog groups are all over that. Had you bothered to read the "2019" link I provided above, you would see one backscatter x-ray scan (the type used in airport x-ray scanners) "dose" is .01 mrem.

Surely Crucial, Samsung, Intel, Corsair, Mushkin, OCZ/Toshiba, etc., or Dell, HP, Lenovo, Acer and the other notebook makers don't want their memory devices or the data on them destroyed by airport scanners. So please show us where any of those major manufactures advise their customers not to let airport scanners scan their notebooks and solid state storage devices.

Airport Security Scanners and Batteries.

While large x-ray doses can harm living tissue, batteries and electronics are generally immune because they have none at all. The same applies to data, whether on a hard drive, a backup, or a USB. Media players, mobile phones, cameras, and camcorders should also be impervious to x-rays.

For someone who claims to not be paranoid, you sure sound paranoid to me - or, for the benefit of doubt, "overly cautious". It seems to me, since you don't trust airport scanners, and I showed where U.S. Mail scanners are more powerful yet, you just need to drive every where you go! Or leave all your electronics at home.

tl:dr
You are trying to prove a negative. That never works just like you cannot prove unicorns, Bigfoot, Nessie, or UFOs "don't" exist. So instead, prove a positive.
It would be simple and inexpensive to prove beyond a doubt, airport x-ray machines destroy data and/or damage such devices. Surely, some group or safety organization has done such testing. So how about you show us one of those studies?

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