PS3 Homebrew discussion

[Easy Rhino]

I disagree completely. There is nothing illegal or wrong with modding hardware you own. The only thing wrong to do is pirate games. They haven't done that. Other people have.

if you have to hack the root key of a console to "mod" it then it is certainly illegal. if you own a house and a burglar discovers that you left a key under the mat and then takes that key to home depot and makes an unlimited amount of those keys to give away for free to anyone he so chooses then he is infringing on the rights of the home owner.

 

[Wile E]

Not the same. Can't use physical property models with virtual or intellectual property. It just doesn't work.

It's closer to telling people how to make a key that opens any lock. Not illegal to tell people. Just illegal to use to take what is not yours.

 

[Easy Rhino]

Not the same. Can't use physical property models with virtual or intellectual property. It just doesn't work.

It's closer to telling people how to make a key that opens any lock. Not illegal to tell people. Just illegal to use to take what is not yours.

it is the same thing. you are knowingly violating somebody's rights by putting their property at risk. in the U.S. you are not allowed to do that. you cannot distribute information about security when you've obtained that information illegally. this is why sony is going after the hacking team and not the people who will eventually use that information. also, just read the TOS which is the legally binding document that says if you use the PS3 if you have to use it the way Sony intends it to be used. case closed.

also, i dont want to go off topic again.

 

[Wile E]

Oh, get off your high horse already, it's most certainly not case closed. A TOS is invalid if it violates customer rights. There have been numerous court cases that have proven that. And it is not illegal in the US to tell people how to bypass security measures. You speak as if it is black and white, and you are quite simply wrong. It is all gray area. There are contradictory laws at play here. Sony going after a hacking team =/= guilt. We'll have to wait to see the verdict.

I don't even see it as a moral issue, tbh. The only thing morally wrong here is those that use the info to pirate games. Releasing the master key =/= piracy. Releasing the master key is what is giving us the ability to run any homebrew we want. Unfortunately, some will also use it for piracy. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

That's like saying it should be illegal to build a high horsepower car because it can be used to illegally street race, even if you never actually use it in that way.





Anyway, I don't know, but has anyone mentioned that the updated and signed Blackbox ftp runs on the Geohot custom 3.55 firmware? Anybody test the Geohot firmware yet? I'm still holding out a little longer.

I really want to keep my Linux support, or at least have a viable alternative. I wonder if anyone considered just writing a nice full featured browser for ps3? Perhaps a port of Firefox or something? Combine that with a good media player, and I may consider dumping OtherOS in favor of the homebrew goodies.

 

[Easy Rhino]

Oh, get off your high horse already, it's most certainly not case closed. A TOS is invalid if it violates customer rights. There have been numerous court cases that have proven that. And it is not illegal in the US to tell people how to bypass security measures. You speak as if it is black and white, and you are quite simply wrong. It is all gray area. There are contradictory laws at play here. Sony going after a hacking team =/= guilt. We'll have to wait to see the verdict.

customer rights? show me the law protecting customer when it comes to exploiting security measures in electronics :shadedshu the ToS are clear. if you don't like it them DONT BUY IT!

I don't even see it as a moral issue, tbh. The only thing morally wrong here is those that use the info to pirate games. Releasing the master key =/= piracy. Releasing the master key is what is giving us the ability to run any homebrew we want. Unfortunately, some will also use it for piracy. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

right, purposefully exploiting the security of somebody elses intellectual property is fine and dandy so long as nobody does anything unlawful or immoral with it

That's like saying it should be illegal to build a high horsepower car because it can be used to illegally street race, even if you never actually use it in that way.

no, that is not it at all. street laws are meant to give legal authority for the police to incarcerate or fine people who disobey the speed limit or drive unsafely. manufacturers build cars to be used by people who ASSUME personal responsibility over them. furthermore, modding your car so that it goes faster is nothing like hacking the root security key for a console rendering it open for complete exploitation and then publishing it on the internet for nerd glory.

 

[Wile E]

customer rights? show me the law protecting customer when it comes to exploiting security measures in electronics :shadedshu the ToS are clear. if you don't like it them DONT BUY IT!

It's called Fair Use. If they enact a change that prevents you from using the content you paid for, you are legally allowed to circumvent security measures to be able to use it.

And you don't get the option of "DONT BUY IT" if they change the TOS after you already bought the console, now do you? Again, high horse, get off of it.

right, purposefully exploiting the security of somebody elses intellectual property is fine and dandy so long as nobody does anything unlawful or immoral with it

Yes. Absolutely 100%

no, that is not it at all. street laws are meant to give legal authority for the police to incarcerate or fine people who disobey the speed limit or drive unsafely. manufacturers build cars to be used by people who ASSUME personal responsibility over them. furthermore, modding your car so that it goes faster is nothing like hacking the root security key for a console rendering it open for complete exploitation and then publishing it on the internet for nerd glory.

The principle is the same from an end user standpoint. It is hardware I bought, I should be able to use it in whatever way I want, regardless of ToS agreements. ToS agreements are total bullshit for the most part, designed to screw over the individual.

 

[Easy Rhino]

It's called Fair Use. If they enact a change that prevents you from using the content you paid for, you are legally allowed to circumvent security measures to be able to use it.

And you don't get the option of "DONT BUY IT" if they change the TOS after you already bought the console, now do you? Again, high horse, get off of it.
Yes. Absolutely 100%

The principle is the same from an end user standpoint. It is hardware I bought, I should be able to use it in whatever way I want, regardless of ToS agreements. ToS agreements are total bullshit for the most part, designed to screw over the individual.

you need to read up on intellectual property rights. you may not agree with it but it exists as i am stating it. people in the U.S. simply don't understand that when you buy something from somebody you enter in a binding contract with them during the time that you own the product. it is called a ToS and IS EFFECTIVE as written unless otherwise shown illegal in accordance with State or Federal law. you buy the product based on the stipulations assigned to it by the seller. these laws are meant to protect the seller from excessive lawsuits and to protect the sellers intellectual property rights. this is why sony is going after the hacking team and not the people who will eventually turn the root key into something usable and this is why i said geohot gets the fine he deserves.

 

[JrRacinFan]

I can understand both sides of your debate, Easy Rhino & Wile E. One thing isn't clear to me, if their is some sort of security protection and it did get bypassed (via keys/encryption/whatever) wouldn't it also be on the intellectual property owner to guarantee security without flaws that could expose the exploit? Meaning, Sony would be required as intellectual property owners to issue a recall OF ALL PS3's after they find a means of better security.

I dunno, maybe I am talking out my butt.....

What my point in the matter is, don't want it hacked/modded/cracked. Secure it better.

 

[Easy Rhino]

what people have to understand is these laws are actually meant to protect companies from one another rather than from individuals. if microsoft hired a team of people to hack the ps3 security so that ps3 stock would suffer due to loss of retail sales and investor trust in the product it would be illegal right?

 

[JrRacinFan]

what people have to understand is these laws are actually meant to protect companies from one another rather than from individuals. if microsoft hired a team of people to hack the ps3 security so that ps3 stock would suffer due to loss of retail sales and investor trust in the product it would be illegal right?

But also Sony as a whole, could go in and hack/mod/crack the Xbox 360 with your above said scenario. Like I said above, my whole point in the matter is, don't wanted it homebrew ready then secure it better.

 

[Easy Rhino]

But also Sony as a whole, could go in and hack/mod/crack the Xbox 360 with your above said scenario. Like I said above, my whole point in the matter is, don't wanted it homebrew ready then secure it better.

recalls happen all the time in the automotive industry but in the end it is up the person who bought the product to bring it in if they feel the problem is a big enough threat to them. im sure sony could issue a recall stating their consoles are no longer secure for public use but it would come at a massive cost to them and at this point would not be worth it. which is why they spent so much effort protecting the PS3 in the first place.

 

[JrRacinFan]

If they still want to combat piracy, I don't see fining/suing/persecuting etc, geohot would help AT ALL, it would just be using him as an "image" saying "Don't f** with us". My point in the matter still stands, secure your intellectual property better. Doesn't matter how many laws are involved, it's not going to get rid of piracy to have Billy Bob get fined for $100,000 because he wants to download and play a cracked copy of **insert hot title here*.

 

[Easy Rhino]

If they still want to combat piracy, I don't see fining/suing/persecuting etc, geohot would help AT ALL, it would just be using him as an "image" saying "Don't f** with us". My point in the matter still stands, secure your intellectual property better. Doesn't matter how many laws are involved, it's not going to get rid of piracy to have Billy Bob get fined for $100,000 because he wants to download and play a cracked copy of **insert hot title here*.

the hacking team is not being sued for piracy, they are being sued for hacking sony's security system on their consoles. whether it leads to piracy or not is irrelevant.

 

[JrRacinFan]

the hacking team is not being sued for piracy, they are being sued for hacking sony's security system on their consoles. whether it leads to piracy or not is irrelevant.

Ok, so homebrew is illegal? and fair use as pointed out earlier is illegal?

 

[ktr]

Fair use entitles that if I legally bought a electronic device, I can use/modify it anyway I please and the manufacture of that electronic device cannot push legal measures against me for doing so.

However, this does not prevent the manufacture from continue efforts to block these modifications. Currently, the fair use agreement only applies to "wireless telephone handsets", but it will be applied to more devices down the road.

That said. Geohot is being sued/restrained not because of Jailbreak particularly, but he has reversed engineered and released a confidential code, that was purposely encrypted, to the public of copyrighted protected software (PS3's firmware).

This is different to Jailbreak on the IOS, where you exploit a venerability to inject code.

 

[JrRacinFan]

Fair use entitles that if I legally bought a electronic device, I can use/modify it anyway I please and the manufacture of that electronic device cannot push legal measures against me for doing so.

However, this does not prevent the manufacture from continue efforts to block these modifications. Currently, the fair use agreement only applies to "wireless telephone handsets", but it will be applied to more devices down the road.

That said. Geohot is being sued/restrained not because of Jailbreak particularly, but he has reversed engineered and released a confidential code, that was purposely encrypted, to the public of copyrighted protected software (PS3's firmware).

This is different to Jailbreak on the IOS, where you exploit a venerability to inject code.

I understand all that. What I am not getting is how come Sony didn't take even further countermeasures against it being done?

 

[ktr]

I understand all that. What I am not getting is how come Sony didn't take even further countermeasures against it being done?

Whatever can be engineered can be reversed engineered.

 

[wahdangun]

Whatever can be engineered can be reversed engineered.

so isn't reversed engineered was legal ?


btw i think its not different than jail breaking your phone, and its your damm console you can do anything with it.

btw i hope they can make the driver for RSX and cell CPU asap, because i'm tired using transcoding to stream my BD rip.

 

[Wile E]

you need to read up on intellectual property rights. you may not agree with it but it exists as i am stating it. people in the U.S. simply don't understand that when you buy something from somebody you enter in a binding contract with them during the time that you own the product. it is called a ToS and IS EFFECTIVE as written unless otherwise shown illegal in accordance with State or Federal law. you buy the product based on the stipulations assigned to it by the seller. these laws are meant to protect the seller from excessive lawsuits and to protect the sellers intellectual property rights. this is why sony is going after the hacking team and not the people who will eventually turn the root key into something usable and this is why i said geohot gets the fine he deserves.

I'm not concerned with their IP rights in this matter. I'm concerned with consumer rights. I'm all for a company protecting their IP rights, but not when it takes away from the consumer. When they took away OtherOS, they violated my rights. I now have to chose between feautres that I already paid for. Consumer rights first, then company rights.

And if the laws currently make it so I can't do whatever I please with my hardware that I bought, then it needs to.

An unjust law is no law at all.

Now, the only place I feel IP protection should come in is the pirating of games. I see nothing morally wrong with what Geohot did at all, and to me, that's infinitely more important than paper law.

 

[ktr]

so isn't reversed engineered was legal ?


btw i think its not different than jail breaking your phone, and its your damm console you can do anything with it.

btw i hope they can make the driver for RSX and cell CPU asap, because i'm tired using transcoding to stream my BD rip.

But Geohot posted the root key, which is illegal because it was copyright protected.

 

[JrRacinFan]

But Geohot posted the root key, which is illegal because it was copyright protected.

Ahhhhh! So if he wouldn't have posted it odds are Sony wouldn't have done anything? Who knows, just want input on the matter at hand.

@reverse engineer
Yah true.

 

[Easy Rhino]

the illegal thing really is that he posted it. sony does not care if you dick around in your basement trying to mod their electronics. they do care however that the root key that secures their entire console does not get published on the internet so that any moron can go around creating custom firmware to exploit the system.

also, fair use does not cover security exploitation. furthermore, fair use is not a blanket clause that the consumer can just throw around in court. it is determined on a case by case basis. geohot will have to convince a judge that he was not looking to profit and that what he did will not hurt sales of the PS3 or its partners. he is screwed there because piracy, whether we like it or not, will come about from this root key. and considering his actions thus far he has not made a case for himself as somebody who did not intend to hurt sony.

personally, i have been waiting for custom firmware since the day i bought the PS3 in 2007. i just wish that hackers did not have to crack the root key and post it all over the net. maybe sony made that impossible to do. also, taking away otherOS is indeed a smack in the face which i will certainly not forget. why people in Europe got some of their money back and we did not i will never know. did americans even try to bring sony to court on that? sony deserves their root key hacked and geohot deserves to pay a large fine, but the rest of us do not deserve to be screwed around with like this when we shelled out our $400 and hundreds more on games. fail sony, fail...

 

[Wile E]

Yeah, there are few class actions in the US over OtherOS. None have gotten anywhere thus yet tho. Sony's pockets are too deep for a layman to fight them on this it seems.

I hope Geohot gets off, as he has proven to be quite the hardware cracker, but either way, I guess I don't actually care much about anything but getting the cfw that gives me the features I'm after.

 

[entropy13]

Slightly OT, but still related LOL

There's now a homebrew game demo for the PSP that doesn't need any custom firmware or homebrew enabler.

 

[Wile E]

Yeah, I guess we forgot to mention that the ps3 also held all the keys to the PSP, so now it is cracked wide open as well.