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Riding the Crypto wave

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Oh come on... How can anyone educated say things like this in 2017...?

It's 2017, dude. You can spend them nearly as easily as cash, even easier if we're talking on the internet. Try to feed your computer a dollar bill.

I'm hardly a crypto advocate, as I lost a lot in this market and I don't want to go back honestly. I once had a lot invested in it and now it's all gone. But even I'll admit your attitude is quite dated.
 
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You can spend them in a couple of stores across the US, in fact newegg accepts them now. They aren't perfect, but it will come with time. A few countries have declared them legal tender in their nations.

Well, I did a tiny research before posting that comment. Newegg came high on google search, but when I opened the link, it said that "promotion has expired".
http://www.newegg.com/bitcoin
Mind you, I don't use newegg and I don't have an account. Maybe I'm missing something or I'm on a wrong continent to be eligible?

But there's a larger issue... on the list of places that (allegedly) accept bitcoin, there's hardly anything not IT-related. Some shops with PC parts, few webpages (e.g. wordpress), some SSH/VPS services...
You gave your mining figures and they're pretty impressive for a home activity. How do you spend that money? On even more PC stuff?
 
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The "promotion" was an actual discount and incentive to spend bitcoin. Newegg and tons of stores still accept it.

But there's a larger issue... on the list of places that (allegedly) accept bitcoin, there's hardly anything not IT-related. Some shops with PC parts, few webpages (e.g. wordpress), some SSH/VPS services...

So convert it to cash. It's easy as pie now. Doesn't change the point: Both the stock market and crypto market can make or break you, based only on the opinions of others on somethings theoretical performance. They are very similar in that regard.

Oh and:

One day a bitcoin is worth hundreds a USD

Try thousands.
 

cdawall

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Well, I did a tiny research before posting that comment. Newegg came high on google search, but when I opened the link, it said that "promotion has expired".
http://www.newegg.com/bitcoin
Mind you, I don't use newegg and I don't have an account. Maybe I'm missing something or I'm on a wrong continent to be eligible?

Did you try following the instructions provided by newegg on the page you linked?



But there's a larger issue... on the list of places that (allegedly) accept bitcoin, there's hardly anything not IT-related. Some shops with PC parts, few webpages (e.g. wordpress), some SSH/VPS services...
You gave your mining figures and they're pretty impressive for a home activity. How do you spend that money? On even more PC stuff?

Ok? Give it a bit longer and it will become more widely accepted. It doesn't surprise my that the money made doing tech things is most widely accepted by tech sites.

I personally am using it to finance a new truck lol. Takes me three clicks to get it converted from BTC to USD
 
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It's 2017, dude. You can spend them nearly as easily as cash, even easier if we're talking on the internet. Try to feed your computer a dollar bill.
First of all: please don't call me "dude". :-(

As for online shopping, I've found www.spendbitcoins.com and the choice is rather poor, actually (but is this list reliable?).
AFAIK in most countries there are no grocery/general stores that would accept a cryptocurrency. Same for restaurants or delivery food.
Obviously, I couldn't pay my taxes or services with BTC or buy something law-regulated (e.g. a house or a car).

So maybe spending it is "as easy as cash" as long as you buy from Newegg or Steam, but not in general.
(BTW: I try to have just a couple of bills at home - worth around $30 in total, so no problem in feeding those to the PC ;). In Europe we're not very attached to cash compared to Americans.)

What I want to say: you can't use bitcoins instead of money at this point (even if you only pay electronically). They're very limited. And if I was making a lot of them (like cdawall does) I'd find myself in a weird situation - I couldn't spend money optimally. You know... I'd have an awesome PC, but I couldn't afford the food I want. ;-)
So as you said, I should convert... However...

As you've tried to convince me that BTC is practically just like normal currency, below I'll try to give some arguments why it's not (it really isn't!). :-D


So convert it to cash. It's easy as pie now.

While the cryptocurrency idea is pretty well designed, it still lacks on the edge of the "traditional" world - legal systems haven't caught up yet.
1) Converting is IMO the weakest point, as it is not protected by law. At some point in this operation you'll loose control over your BTC. Hence we have these situations when wallets/BTC stocks disappear / get hacked and people are left with nothing. So while most of us value highly the anonymity of a cryptocurrency, we should not forget about the risks that are also very fundamental in this idea.
2) Keep in mind stealing BTC is not a crime, so it can't be prosecuted. Moreover, you can't insure your computer to the value of BTC that could be lost if it's stolen/broken.
3) Purchasing something with a bitcoin is not a transaction, so you're not entitled to anything that law of your country would provide - e.g. a return policy. It's up the to store's good will. I checked Newegg and it accepts returns bought with BTC, but will only give you a gift card (not BTC nor normal money).
4) It's hardly possible for companies to use BTC (because they couldn't include them in the balance sheet).

Doesn't change the point: Both the stock market and crypto market can make or break you, based only on the opinions of others on somethings theoretical performance. They are very similar in that regard.
You can't call things similar just because they're presented on similar graphs. :p Bitcoin and stock markets have little in common.
Behind a stock there's always something real - even if the quote is unrealistic. There's always someone held responsible not only for the underlying asset (e.g. the company that offered it), but also for the instrument itself (the stock market it's listed on, government agencies that control it etc).
 
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While the cryptocurrency idea is pretty well designed, it still lacks on the edge of the "traditional" world - legal systems haven't caught up yet.
1) Converting is IMO the weakest point, as it is not protected by law. At some point in this operation you'll loose control over your BTC. Hence we have these situations when wallets/BTC stocks disappear / get hacked and people are left with nothing. So while most of us value highly the anonymity of a cryptocurrency, we should not forget about the risks that are also very fundamental in this idea.
2) Keep in mind stealing BTC is not a crime, so it can't be prosecuted. Moreover, you can't insure your computer to the value of BTC that could be lost if it's stolen/broken.
3) Purchasing something with a bitcoin is not a transaction, so you're not entitled to anything that law of your country would provide - e.g. a return policy. It's up the to store's good will. I checked Newegg and it accepts returns bought with BTC, but will only give you a gift card (not BTC nor normal money).
4) It's hardly possible for companies to use BTC (because they couldn't include them in the balance sheet).

There is so much misinformation here I don't even know where to begin. Stealing BTC is a crime, that's complete and utter BS. You can insure BTC (I even did it at one point). Purchasing something with bitcoin is a transaction at least in the USA, it's even taxable. And 4.) is simply dealt with by autoconverters. Steam accepts BTC for gosh sake.

Most of my "easy as cash" statement is based on the idea you set up a coinbase and exchange it... to cash. Yes, coinbase reports to the IRS, and you will pay taxes, like real money. Bitcoin is not best spent directly. It is best as a currency transport, like paypal.

Behind a stock there's always something real - even if the quote is unrealistic.

What do you think powers bitcoin? Fairy dust? There's a HUGE INDUSTRY behind it.
 
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Stealing BTC is a crime, that's complete and utter BS.
Can you give me a link to the legal act that covers this? You know: something saying that one can own a bitcoin and he's protected.
Of course all countries work on a legal solution for digital currencies, but the ones I know about struggle to even define the ownership.

Basically, I went through some pages after previous post and it seems that, as you've said, there is some legislation in North America that covers bitcoins - mostly for the purpose of taxation.
Mind you, what I've seen suggests that in Canada it's treated as intangible asset (software), not as money.
Another option, that some countries test now, is treating it as copyright...

Still, as imperfect as it is, US law on BTC is way more precise than the average on the planet.
However, while US wants to tax your BTC, it doesn't want to protect it. Digital currency deposits are not covered by FDIC (money deposits in US are covered up to $250k).

You can insure BTC (I even did it at one point).
What exactly did you insure? Because insurance covers a risk (a possible event). So did the insurance cover someone getting access to your passwords? Or you losing that access? Or what?

And 4.) is simply dealt with by autoconverters. Steam accepts BTC for gosh sake.
Steam can accept tomatoes as long as they can price them (in USD, not BTC) and defend that.
As I said earlier: generally BTC is not a currency, it's not money. At best it's like a prepaid mobile plan. Your phone says you have $10, but it's not money - you've already spent that. You're left with just a right to get phone calls worth that much.

At this point I really got interested in this. I'll have to check some sources. Honestly, if my company started accepting bitcoin, I'd have no clue what to do with it. :-D

It is best as a currency transport, like paypal.
The issue here is that your paypal account's value is constant in your currency. You deposit and extract the same amount of USD.
Bitcoin's value changes. Technically it's a lot like trading on FOREX, but it's not a currency.


What do you think powers bitcoin? Fairy dust? There's a HUGE INDUSTRY behind it.
Nope. There's a huge industry behind using it, behind operations. There is no industry behind it's value. Owning a BTC, you don't have any rights.

It would be different if Bitcoin hadn't been created as something purely virtual. Someone could gather billions of USD and make it a base for the BTC. People would mine and spend it just like they do now, but it would have a fixed exchange rate to USD, resulting in a well-defined value - basically similar to a gold standard that currencies had a while ago.

BTC is just an agreement without any fundaments.
Here's an analogy.
You and your friend often go to a pub - each time one of you pays the bill to make things simpler. Because you drink a lot and it's hard to keep track of the balance, you create a currency called "Abeer" worth 1 beer. You can even make a shared online spreadsheet to keep track of the balance - now you can easily check how many free beers you can get next time. Basically, you've created a virtual currency.
To you and your friend Abeers are worth a lot - they're based on your friendship and trust. To everyone else it's worth totally nothing.
Since there are no underlying assets, if your friend dies or catches you kissing his wife, your Abeers instantly lose all their value. :)

Normal currencies and stocks always have an underlying asset - the company or the country usually owns something. Even if it goes bankrupt, there's usually something to salvage (or you can start suing the owner/management/government if they lied to you in financial statements).
 
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So your not into it then, this isn't a debate the merits of thread ,if you're not into it get out of it.
Start a debate the merits of thread if you want.
 

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All I know is it is free money to me that goes into my bank account in USD. LOL
 
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@notb: I'm not going to continue this, but the answers you want re: legal can be readily found on google.

I'd suggest looking into the Mt. Gox case.
 
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It takes my three clicks from my cellphone to turn bitcoins into USD.
It takes me maybe 12-15 clicks and 20 min to convert ether to USD. The wait is for the wallet to coinbase transfer time. It take coinbase 1-2 days to show up at my business bank account.
 
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How safe is it to give your bank account info to coinbase?
Buying games with BTC on Steam is one thing but giving personal info to a website so it can convert the money is something I don't feel safe about.
 
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How safe is it to give your bank account info to coinbase?
Buying games with BTC on Steam is one thing but giving personal info to a website so it can convert the money is something I don't feel safe about.

Coinbase is as legit as paypal. Perfectly safe.
 

cdawall

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It is a US based company that falls under all US laws and reports to the IRS. They are pretty unlikely to steal from you. The words "class action lawsuit" come to mind.
 
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All I know is it is free money to me that goes into my bank account in USD. LOL
OK, but you build rigs for mining, so you should at least be a bit interested in the existing risk. Even if you used mostly parts lying around, you have some alternative costs (you could have sold them, you could have invested that money).
If one's buying new gear for mining, I suppose it'll need a few months to start earning money. What if bitcoin value suddenly drops in the meantime? :p

BTW: how do gaming cards react to mining (24/7 heavy load)?
Even assuming someone is gaming a lot (e.g. averaging 5 hours a day for 2 years of warranty), it's just 150 days of non-stop work.

OK. I'm an analyst. Straight away I'm more interested in risk and profitability of mining than connecting cables.
But IMO even someone purely technical should spend a moment and think about expectations and problems... :p

So your not into it then, this isn't a debate the merits of thread ,if you're not into it get out of it.
Start a debate the merits of thread if you want.
Merits? I'm talking about profitability. Is this weird in a mining thread?
I assume cdawall is doing this primarly for the money, not to heat his house or listen to high-rpm fans.
 
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Frankly @notb you finally hit the nail on the head.

I lost a lot of money in bitcoin due to selling when I shouldn't have (basically, as soon as I mined it). You rarely break even that way. Difficulty in the bitcoin algorithm nearly assures it. Your hardware will die, or become worthless and unprofitable, and you won't even have paid for it yet.


What I realized at the end (though there is no way I would get back into this), is you should mine and wait. Years maybe. Wait for that epic high spike. The world being fed up with banks like it is has them buying like nuts every few years with bitcoin. Those highs dissapate just as fast. If you don't have a pile of coins when they come, you will never break even, let alone get rich.

Just advice from a past miner, still paying off his former habits credit card debt.
 
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cdawall

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OK, but you build rigs for mining, so you should at least be a bit interested in the existing risk. Even if you used mostly parts lying around, you have some alternative costs (you could have sold them, you could have invested that money).
If one's buying new gear for mining, I suppose it'll need a few months to start earning money. What if bitcoin value suddenly drops in the meantime? :p

BTW: how do gaming cards react to mining (24/7 heavy load)?
Even assuming someone is gaming a lot (e.g. averaging 5 hours a day for 2 years of warranty), it's just 150 days of non-stop work.

OK. I'm an analyst. Straight away I'm more interested in risk and profitability of mining than connecting cables.
But IMO even someone purely technical should spend a moment and think about expectations and problems... :p

See that's the thing these parts have sat in my storage unit (sans a couple cases and boards) since I moved down 2 years ago. They weren't going to be sold or used just cost me money for existing.

I sold a couple cpus I had collected and have nothing into this payout tomorrow covers and exceeds what else is in.

BTC his $2615 today already so all of my payouts have increased yet again. I am loosely watching the market so I know when to sell, but shy of the market literally taking overnight I am going to make $1500+ month after electricity cost is removed. That is based on $2200 a BTC so that number is higher now.

The 290's are old used cards and seem to be handling everything fine we will see how long they live. Temps due to the 255cfm fans blowing across aren't even breaking 80C now. I imagine they will be fine, everything I have has good vrm cooling.
 
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OK, but you build rigs for mining, so you should at least be a bit interested in the existing risk. Even if you used mostly parts lying around, you have some alternative costs (you could have sold them, you could have invested that money).
If one's buying new gear for mining, I suppose it'll need a few months to start earning money. What if bitcoin value suddenly drops in the meantime? :p

BTW: how do gaming cards react to mining (24/7 heavy load)?
Even assuming someone is gaming a lot (e.g. averaging 5 hours a day for 2 years of warranty), it's just 150 days of non-stop work.

OK. I'm an analyst. Straight away I'm more interested in risk and profitability of mining than connecting cables.
But IMO even someone purely technical should spend a moment and think about expectations and problems... :p


Merits? I'm talking about profitability. Is this weird in a mining thread?
I assume cdawall is doing this primarly for the money, not to heat his house or listen to high-rpm fans.
No your not your arguing against the whole premise based on profits, if it aint for you then waste your time elsewhere you aint changing my mind ,cdawall's appears set as do anyone thats tried it.
Give it a go then the pap your spouting might realign with reality
 

r9

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OK, but you build rigs for mining, so you should at least be a bit interested in the existing risk. Even if you used mostly parts lying around, you have some alternative costs (you could have sold them, you could have invested that money).
If one's buying new gear for mining, I suppose it'll need a few months to start earning money. What if bitcoin value suddenly drops in the meantime? :p

BTW: how do gaming cards react to mining (24/7 heavy load)?
Even assuming someone is gaming a lot (e.g. averaging 5 hours a day for 2 years of warranty), it's just 150 days of non-stop work.

OK. I'm an analyst. Straight away I'm more interested in risk and profitability of mining than connecting cables.
But IMO even someone purely technical should spend a moment and think about expectations and problems... :p


Merits? I'm talking about profitability. Is this weird in a mining thread?
I assume cdawall is doing this primarly for the money, not to heat his house or listen to high-rpm fans.
You get roughly 100% return of your investment in two months, and we are discussing risks.
Are you serious ?
And even if you don't make anything you can still sell that equipment, its not a asic miners it just pc parts.
 
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BTC his $2615 today already so all of my payouts have increased yet again. I am loosely watching the market so I know when to sell, but shy of the market literally taking overnight I am going to make $1500+ month after electricity cost is removed. That is based on $2200 a BTC so that number is higher now.

The 290's are old used cards and seem to be handling everything fine we will see how long they live. Temps due to the 255cfm fans blowing across aren't even breaking 80C now. I imagine they will be fine, everything I have has good vrm cooling.

I would love to get into this myself and surprised based on your ROI more people aren't doing it now (vs. 4-5 years ago when it came and went) I own two 290x's once used for mining that are still kicking, quite reliably.
 

cdawall

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You get roughly 100% return of your investment in two months, and we are discussing risks.
Are you serious ?
And even if you don't make anything you can still sell that equipment, its not a asic miners it just pc parts.

I have no real risk other than time into this...LOL

I would love to get into this myself and surprised based on your ROI more people aren't doing it now (vs. 4-5 years ago when it came and went) I own two 290x's once used for mining that are still kicking, quite reliably.

Again my ROI is not standard I could see some hold back from people who are pledging 4+ months on this with cards, but the 1060 3GB cards go cheap and have a 40 something day ROI
 
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You get roughly 100% return of your investment in two months, and we are discussing risks.

Wow, it's really that profitable at the moment?

I'd expect difficulty to take it out in no time. I guess Ethereum/other coins are different than direct mining bitcoin or litecoin like I was.

I'm tempted, but I can't now for various reasons. Plus I actually have a job now.
 
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ROI with the 1060 3gb is around 38-low 40 days now. If you pick them up say at Frys or Microcenter when they have a killer deal, like they did this week for $149, 162 with tax and your RIO is even lower. I just picked up 24 yesterday from Dallas. I will be building some more rigs with lower power draw today and tomorrow.

I put some of these ex470s on ebay and they sold within a few hours for 270 each, insane!!.
 

cdawall

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Wow, it's really that profitable at the moment?

I'd expect difficulty to take it out in no time. I guess Ethereum/other coins are different than direct mining bitcoin or litecoin like I was.

I'm tempted, but I can't now for various reasons. Plus I actually have a job now.

A couple of the currencies have shot up making it more profitable right now zcash is going crazy.
 
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I would do it if

a.) My dad didn't have prostate cancer (this is slowing my life down signifigantly right now).
b.) we had room in the garage.
c.) I had time.

Sadly, I barely can manage my TPU job right now frankly, so there's no way I'm adding this.
 
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