So... advertising CD Key sites

[hat]

It is what it is. As you've mentioned, concerns were expressed the first time around, but evidently the top brass has decided to keep going with it. It's ultimately W1zzard's decision, as this is his site.

Locking the threads is likely being done as a pre-emptive move to curb discussions just like this from occurring in the relevant thread. Personally, I don't think it looks too good... nor do I think it looks good that we're advertising sites like that in the first place. I'd probably use one if I wanted to buy something (with caution, they're definitely not getting my debit card info, preferably a crypto payment), but I would also pirate things... but that doesn't mean I think an ads for pirate sites should be on TPU.

 

[PLAfiller]

Somehow I knew there was going to be a thread about this as I saw the news post was locked for comments. To be honest I am thinking about getting two OEM windows keys from such a website. I know where the keys are coming from and the legal caveats, but I need them both for older laptops. Linux is not an option there and I don't feel like forking 150$ for clean OEM keys too. We will see. As @neatfeatguy said, there was already a beefy discussion about this, but I don't think a second thread is necessarily a minus.

 

[GlacierNine]

It is what it is. As you've mentioned, concerns were expressed the first time around, but evidently the top brass has decided to keep going with it. It's ultimately W1zzard's decision, as this is his site.

The issue I'm trying to raise isn't so much the decision to accept sponsorship from these sites. As has been mentioned elsewhere, lots of sites that do otherwise good work, are content to accept money from these people, and, as Linus's video states, it is possible (Depending on the type of key and the license that goes with it) to do this perfectly legally by buying keys in one territory and reselling them in another, higher priced territory.

My issue is that these concerns exist and any website that positions itself as a source of information intended to benefit consumers, IE review sites, sites publishing editorials about the state of the market, publishing guides and tutorials etc, should be willing to walk the walk and talk the talk when it comes to hearing feedback from those same consumers.

Not allowing this kind of feedback to occur is in my opinion contradictory to the fundamental purpose of a site like TPU. (Or Tweaktown, or even a rumour mill like WCCFTech.)

 

[dorsetknob]

As i understand it Windows OEM o/s Keys were tied to Supported Hardware ie Motherboard or Hard Drive.
No Hardware =Not a Valid License

then again Microsoft will Activate it as they want every one + the dog on win 10
More people more Snooping Telematary

 

[hat]

The issue I'm trying to raise isn't so much the decision to accept sponsorship from these sites. As has been mentioned elsewhere, lots of sites that do otherwise good work, are content to accept money from these people, and, as Linus's video states, it is possible (Depending on the type of key and the license that goes with it) to do this perfectly legally by buying keys in one territory and reselling them in another, higher priced territory.

My issue is that these concerns exist and any website that positions itself as a source of information intended to benefit consumers, IE review sites, sites publishing editorials about the state of the market, publishing guides and tutorials etc, should be willing to walk the walk and talk the talk when it comes to hearing feedback from those same consumers.

Not allowing this kind of feedback to occur is in my opinion contradictory to the fundamental purpose of a site like TPU. (Or Tweaktown, or even a rumour mill like WCCFTech.)

I get you, just saying that I speculate top brass has decided we've been there and done that, so throw the thread out there and then lock it so we don't keep have the same discussion again and again... though we're doing it anyway, just in a different thread.

 

[qubit]

Having been part of TPU for over a decade, I trust that the sponsored offers which I see on here are genuine. However, I don't think it's a good look to lock threads in that manner and breeds suspicion that they're less than genuine, especially for people who don't know the site well.

I suspect that it's probably been done to prevent toxic comments from being posted, but I think this actually makes the problem worse. Better to get on top of them with timely and proper moderation in my opinion.

 

[GlacierNine]

As i understand it Windows o/s Keys were tied to Supported Hardware ie Motherboard or Hard Drive.
No Hardware =Not a Valid License

then again Microsoft will Activate it as they want every one + the dog on win 10
More people more Snooping Telematary

OEM Windows keys are tied to the hardware upon install, yes, but it's still possible to obtain real Windows keys that are resellable, without having the legal right to resell those keys. For example if you work for a company that has a volume license and you can obtain or generate keys for yourself through that volume license. Every MSDN developer I know can basically grab as many free OEM licenses as they need in order to run VMs and whatnot. They're not legally allowed to re-sell those keys, but that doesn't physically prevent them from doing so, and as long as they're not getting caught doing it, you can bet your ass that some people are using this to make a little extra money on the side.

This isn't even a Win10 thing - the leaking of corporate volume licenses has been happening since at least the WinXP days.

Alternatively, there's always the "outright money laundering" approach, where someone uses a stolen credit card to buy windows keys and then resells them in order to gain clean funds. In both situations, key resellers like these are the venue for turning the licenses into cash for whoever is selling them.

In both cases, the keys are real, the licenses will activate just fine with Microsoft's servers, and they'll probably work just fine for the end user. But the keys were only obtained by either breaking a license agreement or through fraud, and if TPU are going to accept the money from key resellers in order to promote their websites, then I think it's only expected that TPU do the bare minimum to reassure us that they're making an effort to deal with a better class of key-reseller, and have at least asked some pointed questions and recieved some satisfactory answers as to the source of the keys and discounts.

If nothing else, it's their own reputation they're damaging if they're unable to justify this to people and have chosen to try and put barriers in the way of people raising their concerns.

 

[qubit]

In both cases, the keys are real, the licenses will activate just fine with Microsoft's servers, and they'll probably work just fine for the end user. But the keys were only obtained by either breaking a license agreement or through fraud, and if TPU are going to accept the money from key resellers in order to promote their websites, then I think it's only expected that TPU do the bare minimum to reassure us that they're making an effort to deal with a better class of key-reseller, and have at least asked some pointed questions and recieved some satisfactory answers as to the source of the keys and discounts.

If nothing else, it's their own reputation they're damaging if they're unable to justify this to people and have chosen to try and put barriers in the way of people raising their concerns.

Good points, especially the bit I've quoted. It's that trust thing I was talking about just now, isn't it?

 

[Vayra86]

I was thinking about buying metro exodus from the site advertised here, and I assumed that cuz it's here on TPU it was 100% legit. Is this not the case?

Because many people are going to think the same honestly.

No its not legit, its as legit as you and your own due diligence make it out to be. Don't trust a random website to be your compass.

Here is my two cents on key sellers, after five years' worth of experience with them...
- I use key sellers regularly
- I completely am AGAINST advertising for them on TPU (too many question marks about legitimacy etc, if TPU cares about brand image/trustworthiness, they need to stop yesterday)
- I have learned that this is one area of buying things where awareness and being critical about what you see is 100% top priority if you don't want to get scammed.
- I have learned that key sellers are, for the most part and with proper due diligence, trustworthy and the keys themselves are legit. (Over 100 keys purchased, only 1 was previously used, got refunded. That's better service than most '100% legal' companies manage to achieve)
- Common sense applies: if you see the newly released Anthem for 10 bucks, that is a red flag. But Windows OEM (Pro) keys for the same price? Likely no issue, as the license has been a free upgrade and very attractively priced at more than one point in time.
- I am not responsible for how these keys were obtained and I frankly don't care, but it isn't hard to deduct how: given the prices of late, most keys are obtained in bulk by buying at the right time. Most sellers just resell their own purchased keys. Another aspect is the large cut that is taken by stores like Steam. That 30% can go elsewhere too.
- Its a misunderstanding that developers/publishers are all up in arms about key sellers. Are they happy? Of course not. Such is life, isn't it. Smart businesses find new ways to monetize content the way they want. You already see this with base games going for cheap not long after release, and content DLCs being sold for 20-25% the price of a base game. There are no problems here. Its a constant race and key sellers do well in keeping the pressure on.

 

[hat]

I'll also point out that on the site the latest thread was about, I found an LTSB key. Normally, you can't just buy such a key... you need a volume license agreement or something. Of course, it's possible someone bought that in a cheap area and is now reselling it for cheap (which I believe is already less than legal?) but it is kinda shady anyway.

 

[dorsetknob]

I Think that this thread (and the other) speak for the Integrity of the TPU members that raise concerns for the "legality" of this Subject Matter

would these Keys Pass a BSA or SIIA Audit ( Something any Business should be concerned with ).

 

[ArbitraryAffection]

Ugh no way im payign 50 quid for exodus on steam though. Guess i'll wait for a sale or when it's 14.99. Rip.

 

[Deleted member 67555]

I'm completely ok with buying these keys and spending that money on better parts.
I can't come up with a definitive number but I believe Microsoft has gotten $1300 or more from me and me alone over the last decade...
And I'm running the same OS...Vista SP 16

 

[GlacierNine]

I Think that this thread (and the other) speak for the Integrity of the TPU members that raise concerns for the "legality" of this Subject Matter

would these Keys Pass a BSA or SIIA Audit ( Something any Business should be concerned with ).

The funny thing about this is that I'm very much pro-consumer before I am pro-business, as everyone who reads my posts (or my lengthy arguments with Cadaveca, or my constant dissatisfaction with Darksaber's case reviews) would know. I fully understand the power of piracy as a weapon against corporate exploitation of the consumer - If prices are being set to punish people who buy legitimately in order to keep share prices rising, then piracy is the most direct form of protest against that - And as we've seen with music, and Steam itself, that's brought about industry-wide, paradigm shifts in order to keep consumers buying legitimate material instead of jumping onto Limewire or Soulseek.

Killing all of the illegitimacy in these key-reselling sites would definitely result in consumers having a harder time finding the best possible prices, as many of these discounts are only possible due to the aspects of the business where asking too many questions doesn't lead to pleasant answers.

But that doesn't mean we, or TPU, should turn a blind eye to it - it means that we should seek to understand why people might opt for a more dubious option, and in most cases that's because an industry has started to forget that it serves the consumer, and not the shareholder. If TPU wanted to take a stance that they simply support the consumer having the best possible buying power, I'd be OK with that (Though I know many others would not be).

But simply saying nothing while merging threads and disallowing article feedback, really just smacks of contempt for the audience.

 

[btarunr]

Every step of posting a sponsored article is under full scrutiny of our administrator W1zzard. After our first sponsored post, we realized that enabling comments in sponsored posts will only invite the same comments all over again. So let me make two quick points without mincing words:

• Sponsored posts generate revenue we want. We are making money from them, and so are our advertisers. We have deemed discount key sellers to not constitute piracy, and we are yet to see convincing evidence to the contrary.
• We cannot allow the comments section of sponsored posts to repeatedly and inevitably devolve/transcend into a discussion about the business model of the key-seller or our ethics in marketing them, every single time. Our first such post required a gargantuan amount of moderation. It's easier for us to just keep the threads closed for discussion. So just read the post. You like what they're selling? Go buy! If not, scroll down.

TechPowerUp does have a Patreon account, we have attempted to market it, and if enough people are willing to drop some coins, we won't need sponsored content.

I also notice that such kind of feedback threads keep popping up after each sponsored post, and I appreciate/welcome that, so I merge them with the oldest such thread.

 

[Deleted member 67555]

Anytime you feel bad for Microsoft for stuff like this just remember 90% of your OS was an open source project another 5% compiling it to be closed proprietary.... And probably 5% original content...
Yes I pulled those numbers out of my ass but my point stands...

 

[Vayra86]

Every step of posting a sponsored article is under full scrutiny of our administrator W1zzard. After our first sponsored post, we realized that enabling comments in sponsored posts will only invite the same comments all over again. So let me make two quick points without mincing words:

• Sponsored posts generate revenue we want. We are making money from them, and so are our advertisers. We have deemed discount key sellers to not constitute piracy, and we are yet to see convincing evidence to the contrary.
• We cannot allow the comments section of sponsored posts to repeatedly and inevitably devolve/transcend into a discussion about the business model of the key-seller or our ethics in marketing them, every single time. Our first such post required a gargantuan amount of moderation. It's easier for us to just keep the threads closed for discussion. So just read the post. You like what they're selling? Go buy! If not, scroll down.

TechPowerUp does have a Patreon account, we have attempted to market it, and if enough people are willing to drop some coins, we won't need sponsored content.

I also notice that such kind of feedback threads keep popping up after each sponsored post, and I appreciate/welcome that, so I merge them with the oldest such thread.

FINALLY. A statement. At least some clarity on TPU's stance.

support the consumer having the best possible buying power

Ironically, if you scroll back in this topic a little bit, the previous outing was clearly, obviously a scammy keyselling site, with notoriously bad reviews of non-delivery and/or bad service. With the current one... well it still raises a few questions IMO, but it seems somewhat better. Still though, not one I'd buy from.

I would certainly not mind TPU to do some vetting beforehand.

Who cares. Windows 10 should be free.

I have probably purchased 10-15 OEM's keys off Ebay for $3.50-$6..
They all worked..

Any os that force updates your computer without you knowing then destroys stuff and collects data for advertisements? WTF?
Microsoft should be paying me for Ad's that popup....lol
Now...Windows 7 SP1 was worth paying for.

just my 2 cents.........

Anytime you feel bad for Microsoft for stuff like this just remember 90% of your OS was an open source project another 5% compiling it to be closed proprietary.... And probably 5% original content...
Yes I pulled those numbers out of my ass but my point stands...

This is grossly offtopic though. This was never about Windows OEM keys

 

[juiseman]

Who cares. Windows 10 should be free.

I have probably purchased 10-15 OEM's keys off Ebay for $3.50-$6..
They all worked..

Any os that force updates your computer without you knowing then destroys stuff and collects data for advertisements? WTF?
Microsoft should be paying me for Ad's that popup....lol
Now...Windows 7 SP1 was worth paying for.

just my 2 cents.........

 

[GlacierNine]

Every step of posting a sponsored article is under full scrutiny of our administrator W1zzard. After our first sponsored post, we realized that enabling comments in sponsored posts will only invite the same comments all over again. So let me make two quick points without mincing words:

• Sponsored posts generate revenue we want. We are making money from them, and so are our advertisers. We have deemed discount key sellers to not constitute piracy, and we are yet to see convincing evidence to the contrary.
• We cannot allow the comments section of sponsored posts to repeatedly and inevitably devolve/transcend into a discussion about the business model of the key-seller or our ethics in marketing them, every single time. Our first such post required a gargantuan amount of moderation. It's easier for us to just keep the threads closed for discussion. So just read the post. You like what they're selling? Go buy! If not, scroll down.

TechPowerUp does have a Patreon account, we have attempted to market it, and if enough people are willing to drop some coins, we won't need sponsored content.

I also notice that such kind of feedback threads keep popping up after each sponsored post, and I appreciate/welcome that, so I merge them with the oldest such thread.

I would suggest then, that the appropriate response would be to create a dedicated thread entitled "Sponsored Post Feedback", sticky a post to the top of it explaining why TPU accepts sponsorships from key resellers, and in every thread created for every sponsored post, have the staff member responsible for creating the post, copypaste the following before locking the thread:

Dear TPU Community,

We accept sponsored content on TPU in order to fund the site and ensure we can continue to bring you high quality content. We welcome feedback on our choices of sponsor, and we encourage you to do any of the following:

1 - If you'd rather we didn't do sponsored content, or did less sponsored content, consider supporting the <TPU Patreon>, which directly funds us and allows us to be more independent, and bring you more content, free of any concern over our relationships with advertisers or manufacturers.

2 - If you'd like to get in touch with us in order to sponsor content, please contact <email address> to discuss your ideas with us.

3 - If you have any questions or queries about how we choose our sponsored content, we encourage you to view <the appropriate thread>, wherein we collect feedback.

That would allow feedback, without the clutter of multiple threads, and without the issue of people not seeing answers that have been provided in the past (Unless they're just an idiot, in which case they're now easier to moderate for not reading the first post).

I'd also appreciate an explanation of the following, as I note that your response still fundamentally hinges on the "Not piracy" angle, despite the fact I think most people here are less concered with the idea of piracy (Indeed, several people have voiced either an understanding of why piracy occurs, or outright supported it), and more concerned with the ideas of money laundering or the potential deactivation of keys sold by less-than-ethical volume licensees:

I'm also concerned that across the comments in the one thread that allowed them, btarunr was clearly aware of the reasons for people's concern and disappointment, but instead of actually assuring anyone that there was no dubious practice to worry about, he instead chose to rely on the point of "it's not piracy", which I think I and many others will note, technically dodges explaining the somewhat academic difference between a legitimate key obtained through illicit means (Not piracy, but still illegal and unethical), or an actual cracked key (Definitely piracy).

 

[Lightning]

TechPowerUp does have a Patreon account, we have attempted to market it, and if enough people are willing to drop some coins, we won't need sponsored content.

I was going to ask about the existence of one, if I ever wrote here. Why aren't you advertising that on the top page, so people can see it ? I didn't see it in the app, either.

 

[juiseman]

I dont see someone buying a $150 key with a stolen credit card and reselling it for $3-$6.
To much risk for soooo little profit.

How do you know the keys are not legit?
What if they were from old computers?
When a big corporation buys 1000's
of computers with OEM keys stamped on the computer;
but then uses a KMS server to activate all those computers....
There is a unused key sitting in space.
Maybe some guy in the office walks around on night shift and
takes a cell phone pic of each of those computers keys and resells them??
I'm just taking a guess.....

All I know is I paid for a key and it worked....
This brings the ethics of pawn shops to mind too.
If a crack head steals somthing and sells it to a pawn shop;
are you wrong for buying it? Its a hard call.....

 

[GlacierNine]

I was going to ask about the existence of one, if I ever wrote here. Why aren't you advertising that on the top page, so people can see it ? I didn't see it in the app, either.

There's no mention of it in any news posts, there's no link to it on the frontpage (Even in the little icon links at the top right showing Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Youtube and RSS feeds, there's no Patreon logo.), none of the dropdown menus link to it, it's never linked to in any first posts on the forum for articles, and even searching "patreon" from the frontpage only finds the original thread about it from W1zzard. The second post is a thread from 2014 that has nothing to do with the current patreon, the third thread is about cryptomining to support the site and has a forum member suggesting patreon in 2017.

By the time you hit the fourth and fifth google results for `patreon +site:techpowerup.com` the patreons being linked aren't even TPUs, they're other people's. The same applies if you search `techpowerup patreon` instead, as by the fifth result, just like with the site specific search, you're actually being directed to other patreons, not TPUs.

Unless all of the promotion being done to help the TPU Patreon has been deleted from the internet, it seems the only place on the entire TPU website outside of the forum, that this has ever been mentioned, is on the TPU contact-us page, where it is right at the very bottom of the page.

I suspect that some of this might be contributing to the fact the TPU patreon is currently making an astronomical $45 a month from an entire 6 people, and I certainly wouldn't really qualify any of this as a concerted attempt to promote it. It should be in the first post of every thread in the Reviews, Articles, and News subsections, it should be linked in the top navigation of TPU, it should be mentioned on the pages for GPU-Z and the VGA BIOS Database, and honestly, it should also be a clickable link in GPU-Z itself.

All I know is I paid for a key and it worked....

I think it is astonishingly obvious to anyone reading that yes, this is the sum total of your knowledge on any of this.

 

[btarunr]

I would suggest then, that the appropriate response would be to create a dedicated thread entitled "Sponsored Post Feedback", sticky a post to the top of it explaining why TPU accepts sponsorships from key resellers, and in every thread created for every sponsored post, have the staff member responsible for creating the post, copypaste the following before locking the thread:



That would allow feedback, without the clutter of multiple threads, and without the issue of people not seeing answers that have been provided in the past (Unless they're just an idiot, in which case they're now easier to moderate for not reading the first post).

I'd also appreciate an explanation of the following, as I note that your response still fundamentally hinges on the "Not piracy" angle, despite the fact I think most people here are less concered with the idea of piracy (Indeed, several people have voiced either an understanding of why piracy occurs, or outright supported it), and more concerned with the ideas of money laundering or the potential deactivation of keys sold by less-than-ethical volume licensees:

Thank You. That is a lot of usable, constructive feedback, and we will credit you when we implement some/all of it.

 

[notb]

The issue came back. And it's worse.
Seriously?
https://www.techpowerup.com/252902/save-on-essential-windows-10-and-office-2016-software-on-ekoffers
And you've even blocked comments in this article!

That's what I call dodgy.
Zero credibility. No address. No phone. No proper company registration info. Payment via PayPal only.
Even the name doesn't seem true: https://www.google.com/search?q="Baite+Technical"
Suspicious e-mail: ekoffers1@gmail.com
Amateur, awful site: https://www.ekoffers.com/about-us
FB page (link from site above) possibly already blocked (?): https://www.facebook.com/ek.ekoffer
Domain registered a month ago. Website probably created today.
And my favourite:

 

[sneekypeet]

The issue came back. And it's worse.
Seriously?
https://www.techpowerup.com/252902/save-on-essential-windows-10-and-office-2016-software-on-ekoffers
And you've even blocked comments in this article!

That's what I call dodgy.
Zero credibility. No address. No phone. No proper company registration info. Payment via PayPal only.
Even the name doesn't seem true: https://www.google.com/search?q="Baite+Technical"
Suspicious e-mail: ekoffers1@gmail.com
Amateur, awful site: https://www.ekoffers.com/about-us
FB page (link from site above) possibly already blocked (?): https://www.facebook.com/ek.ekoffer
Domain registered a month ago. Website probably created today.
And my favourite:
View attachment 117381

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/sponsored-content-on-techpowerup.251940/#post-3992630