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Speed Shift settings to explain

ProgUn1corn

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Hi, I have some questions about Speed Shift settings in Throttlestop.

I have 2 laptops that has i9-14900HX and i5-1135G7. They are both new enough so they should support Speed Shift by default in BIOS.

My first question: What's the effect of enabling Speed Shift in TPL menu, if this is already enabled in BIOS and it worked fine on its default?
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Second question: I've read that Windows can manage Speed Shift EPP on it's own, but on both of my laptops, no matter what power mode in Windows settings (the balanced, more power or more efficient thing in Battery tab), it all shows 128 EPP in FIVR menu. Even setting different Windows power plan in control panel will leave EPP remain 128. However I do notice a difference with different power settings, even it all shows 128 EPP in FIVR menu. When setting from the main tab and manually enter a value, it shows in FIVR menu.

Last question: I need to have a mode that will let my CPU run at a constant clock for DAW usage. Usually I set this to Windows High Performance power plan (that's in control panel not windows settings), I've read this will set EPP to 0 and it worked well on my i7-11800H, i9-13950HX and i9-14900HX laptop (even they all shows EPP 128 in FIVR menu, the clock is stable). However on my 1135G7 laptop, it does not change anything, unless I manually click the Speed Shift EPP on the main tab and set it to 0. When checked this, the clock speed goes stable, even after I unchecked in the main tab, however after switching to other power plans and back to high performance, it will not work again unless I manually check Speed Shift EPP manually for one time, each time I switch to high performance power plan. Why is that?

Edit: One thing to add about C-states, I have switched to high performance power plan, checked the C-states AC box and the off button, pressed apply and the box unchecks by itself. I believe this writes the thing into power plan so it unchecked every time I press apply. However my cores are still in C7, but the package C states work well, after I set to C1, immediately all those C-states turned to 0%.

If I'm correct, package C-state refer to things like GPU that are not CPU cores in the package right? I haven't tested this on my 14900HX laptop, but on my 1135G7, I would like my package C and core C both at C1 or C0. However I noticed the AC name in the box, does that mean, it only works when connecting to AC power, not battery? (I'm not planning to use this with battery, I just using the battery at this time and I don't have AC power to test)


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Also something I've found:

On my 14900HX laptop, after I did a BIOS reset and deleted Throttlestop.ini, the C states windows shows nothing.
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And my laptop for some reason, automatically drops the CPU max clock to 4.2ghz after random time and usage. When check and uncheck this Speed Shift box, or after a sleep or restart, it reverts to 108 or 85. I've checked that it's clear Speed Shift issue. as in TPL menu, the max could random be as low as 42. It's constantly changing between 108 and 85 every time I close the TPL window, and I have no control over this. Even I set Max to something like 25, when operating normally, the clock will still go as high as 5.2ghz. That means if I get locked to 42, I can't guarantee I'm able to set this back to something like 58 and make it work.
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Last edited:

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
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Jun 1, 2008
Messages
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What's the effect of enabling Speed Shift in TPL menu
If the BIOS has enabled Speed Shift then you do not need to check the Speed Shift box in the TPL window. You only need to check this box if you want ThrottleStop to adjust the Speed Shift Min and Max values.

it all shows 128 EPP in FIVR menu
Newer CPUs use two separate registers to control Speed Shift. My desktop computer has a 10th Gen CPU which only uses a single Speed Shift register and my laptop is way older than that. ThrottleStop was developed on a computer running Windows 10. How different Windows 11 power plans program the Speed Shift registers is a mystery to me.

Why is that?
There is likely some sort of conflict between ThrottleStop and Windows 11 when programming the Speed Shift registers. I have done zero ThrottleStop testing while running Windows 11. Using the Windows High Performance power plan used to be the best way to avoid interference between ThrottleStop and Windows.

the C states windows shows nothing
After you delete the ThrottleStop.INI file, try opening the main ThrottleStop window, close it and then open it again. Now try opening the C States window. That usually works. It looks like a bug when ThrottleStop calculates the row height for the data table. The row height info is stored in the ThrottleStop.INI file.

I don't have AC power to test
The C States - AC option in ThrottleStop lets you disable the core C states but only when plugged in running on AC power. As you found out, this setting does not do anything when running on battery power. Each Windows power plan has both an AC and a battery component to it. These settings are completely separate. ThrottleStop only changes the AC side of the power plan. This is a permanent change to whatever Windows power plan you are currently using. You will need to use ThrottleStop if you want to enable the core C states again. You can also push the Restore plan defaults button in the Windows Power Options to reset everything.

When you check the C States - AC box and push Apply, the check mark will immediately disappear. This is by design. It is definitely a cryptic feature. I added it to ThrottleStop to help out users that want to minimize latency. This was only programmed to be functional. I agree that the user interface and documentation should explain this feature a lot better than it does.

And my laptop for some reason, automatically drops the CPU max clock to 4.2ghz after random time and usage.
Do you have any manufacturer's control software running on your computer? Some computers might be lowering the Speed Shift Max value to control the maximum CPU speed and heat output. Windows 10 never used to touch that control register. ThrottleStop Speed Shift control works great on my computer but there could be all sorts of conflicts on any recent computer running Windows 11. Try running ThrottleStop without checking the Speed Shift box in the TPL window and without checking the Speed Shift EPP box on the main screen. That should allow Windows 11 or whatever control software that is running on your computer to control Speed Shift without any interference from ThrottleStop. If your computer gets stuck at 4.2 GHz then it is either a Windows bug / feature or the control software you are using is bugged.
 

ProgUn1corn

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After you delete the ThrottleStop.INI file, try opening the main ThrottleStop window, close it and then open it again. Now try opening the C States window. That usually works. It looks like a bug when ThrottleStop calculates the row height for the data table. The row height info is stored in the ThrottleStop.INI file.
After deleting the ini file the problem still exists, but disabling whatever that HiDPI scaling optimization in properties fixed this.
This is a permanent change to whatever Windows power plan you are currently using. You will need to use ThrottleStop if you want to enable the core C states again. You can also push the Restore plan defaults button in the Windows Power Options to reset everything.
I can confirm it works, however by a big catch, and that's why I was wondering about this.
Do you have any manufacturer's control software running on your computer?
This is probably the big catch. There are so many reasons to this and I need to experiment one by one. By that software, yes, I've installed it but I never bother to open it, nor setting it start up with Windows. However it seems to affecting C States as well. Just after boot, the C States are turned off after I applied the off button, however after like 1 minute or 2 the system starts to idle, suddenly the C7 raised up to 90%+ and it does not change no matter what Windows Power Plan I use. That's why I was wondering, because it does not seem to have any effect at all, no matter I'm in balanced or high performance. I do not know if this is caused by that software, but I don't really have anything other turned on by itself. The other things are MSI Afterburner+Rivatuner, Nvidia APP and that's literally all.

I'm right now experiencing a lock at 4.2ghz, but I've noticed that the speed shift frequency is lower as well, it seems that some power management setting is malfunctioning. At this time, I disabled S0 modern standby in BIOS, and this seems to affect tons of things.

Look at that up time, it just turned C7 to 99 after like 2 minute. I have uninstalled everything related to the brand and disabled as much as I can, even re-enabled S0. Any idea that this is happening?
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ProgUn1corn

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After some investigation I've found that my CPU lock problem isn't caused by Speed Shift, it's actually Nvidia. If I disable NVIDIA Display Containler LS using msconfig, I have no problem at all. I have no idea why this happened but I guess I need to find something.

But this doesn't explain the C7 thing. Still my C7 is still very high, even with C-states disabled in Throttlestop.
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
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Any idea that this is happening?
I have never tested the ThrottleStop C state disable trick when running Windows 11. It is possible that this trick no longer works.

I have seen Windows do some funny things a couple of minutes after first starting up. It is possible that it runs at full speed and disables all of the C states so as to boot up as fast as possible. After 2 minutes when everything has settled down, it might decide to re-enable the C states. After this happens, have you tried opening the ThrottleStop C States window and forcing C States - AC Off again?

If that does not work then you might be out of luck until someone discovers a new trick. You can also try doing a sleep resume cycle. Sometimes doing that can reset the CPU in unusual ways.
 

ProgUn1corn

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have you tried opening the ThrottleStop C States window and forcing C States - AC Off again?
I have tried but it didn't work.

However after I did a complete Windows reinstall, every of those problems are gone. Till now I still have no idea which part is corrupted, but my best guess is Windows Power Plan. In this newly installed Windows I decided to make my own power plans from the templates, at least right now they are working properly, and C states are properly turned off and will not be turned on back. I assume before there's something wrong with the default power plans (even I tried to revert), but nobody would know the reason. Also I'm hoping it would not come back again in this Windows install.
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By the way, there was some things could related to this. The Windows before, when I tried to disable C1E, it would also randomly limit the clock to max like the EPP is set to 0. This not always happen, but most time C1E isn't working as C1E should (power saving and lower clock). Either C1E have 0 effect at all, either it boost all cores to max. In this freshly installed Windows, the C1E works as intended, when enabled the cores can get a tad bit lower frequency when it's actually used (not very much though).

About the sleep, yes, I guess that could be a part of the reason as well. I'm using MSI that I can disable S0 in BIOS, and I did that, every time after a sleep resume cycle it always have unsual behavior, while this is not presented on my 13950HX. I guess Intel is taking S3 sleep support away gen by gen so there would be more and more bugs, that forces you to use S0 modern standby.

And the NVIDIA driver works fine as well, it will not limit CPU clock now. Before I even uninstalled all display driver with DDU in safe boot, but that didn't help either. Have no idea why it's working now.

I was told by someone from MSI that this could be also some strange strategy from the EC chip, but it's not confirmed and it's only assumption. There is possibility that just right now with a newly installed Windows, the EC is working, and there is possibility that after months it starts to jump all over the place again.

When tinkering this I've found that at some point the profile switch in Throttlestop won't work, unless I close and re-open it again. But it could be my issue though, I haven't encountered this before.
 
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