The Progress of Gaming

[Frick]

...namely AI.

A series of games I've always wanted to play but never got there are the Fallout games. I've read a lot about them, I've seen videos and screenies and well.. I just wanted to play some of it. When I was younger, when the games were released, I never was interested in RPG's at all. I'm still basicly *not* a roleplayer, but there are some great games in the genre.

So, I purchased Fallout 2 (as I read it was "bigger" than the first game). And it's AMAZING! I love it! It's pure genius! I love pretty much every single aspect of it so far. The world, the skills, the drugs (I need to find something to cure my need for Jet soon..), the fights.. Also, I don't understand all this fuzz about GTA when this game has been around for nearly a decade.. if you've played it, you know what I mean.

However, there is one thing that I feel is disturbing: AI during fights. I'm not used to these fancy Fear-AI's or the Knights of the Old Republic-AI (hey, I play Heroes III on a regular basis = not that great AI) and I'm not all that hot on graphics or sound or anything (just give me a solid story and I can play anything), but I'm grateful for the development of AI.

Because in Fallout 2, I've seen a number of fights between allies because they fire a minigun from a middle of a crowd of allies, resulting in those allies being torn apart by bullets. And the surviving ones start to fire wildly at anything they see.

It can be considered realistic (if I saw three of my friends being shot at with a minigun at 3 feet I'd probably go bonkers as well), but it's kinda frustating when you see your oh so irreplaceable, hammer-wieldning tough guy get blown up by a rocket fired by an ally when me and my companions aren't even involved in the fight and that rocket was fired by a dumba$$ mutant.

So, I think I'm most grateful for the development of the AI when it comes to gaming. Everything else has been there from the start (storytelling) or isn't very important (graphics).

Do *you* have something you want to share here as wellm, about what *you* like the most when it comes to the progress of Gaming? This was mostly just a pretty random rant, and I might continue writing about my crazy adventures in the magical Fallout world. Because I Love it!

 

[newconroer]

It seems that 3d applications, primarily 'games,' were in a battle of graphics vs. gameplay. In the last decade, graphics have come further than gameplay. Yet now, we're starting to see the two merge together, because visuals have peaked and leveled off at the moment, and resources are being spent on making environments, objects and characters more interactable.

What I look for, is an environment that's properly 'alive.' This concept of hitting a barrel and seeing it fall over doesn't impress me much. But, if you were walking through a forest, like in Crysis, with leaves on the ground, and you looked down and saw your feet(for once! ) and when you kicked the leaves they actually moved about with relative velocity and energy based on your movements, then to me, that is the height of immersion.

Though it seems like we are quite a ways off from that stage.

 

[Morgoth]

It seems that 3d applications, primarily 'games,' were in a battle of graphics vs. gameplay. In the last decade, graphics have come further than gameplay. Yet now, we're starting to see the two merge together, because visuals have peaked and leveled off at the moment, and resources are being spent on making environments, objects and characters more interactable.

What I look for, is an environment that's properly 'alive.' This concept of hitting a barrel and seeing it fall over doesn't impress me much. But, if you were walking through a forest, like in Crysis, with leaves on the ground, and you looked down and saw your feet(for once! ) and when you kicked the leaves they actually moved about with relative velocity and energy based on your movements, then to me, that is the height of immersion.

Though it seems like we are quite a ways off from that stage.

i never saw my feet in crysis when i looked down?

 

[Frick]

i never saw my feet in crysis when i looked down?

I think he would like to see his feet. Like in Thief 3.

 

[Morgoth]

i used to see my own feet, torse legs in tribes2 i love that game! melddown mod and heavy medal mod!

 

[newconroer]

Exactly, you DON'T see your feet or legs... I mean how hard is that to do? It's not a new concept..

When you really dissect some games, you're left quite dissapointed with what they leave out.

 

[imperialreign]

These new 'features' or 'abilities' found in a lot of newer FPSes.

Graphics will continue to evolve, for sure, and newer methods are making these 'abilities' more realisitc and plausible to do. For example, the suit in Crysis, or SlowMo in FEAR - or TimeShift. Without the graphics, the ability just wouldn't fit.

But, it seems like these gimmicks are the major marketing point for the game - not the cinematic style gameplay, nor truly innovative AI; and, I think, that it's being used as a crutch to cover up either a really weak storyline, or just how A-to-B-to-C scripted a FPS has become (first time playing FEAR and Doom3, I felt like I was on a leash being drug from one map to the next).

I can't say it's 100% bad, though, because the PC FPS seems to really be what's bringing a lot of gamers back over to the PC market - which is good, IMO. There were a few years where it seemed the PC market was doomed (then along came Doom3 ).

 

[Disparia]

So, I purchased Fallout 2 (as I read it was "bigger" than the first game). And it's AMAZING! I love it! It's pure genius! I love pretty much every single aspect of it so far. The world, the skills, the drugs (I need to find something to cure my need for Jet soon..), the fights.. Also, I don't understand all this fuzz about GTA when this game has been around for nearly a decade.. if you've played it, you know what I mean.

If you liked it, make sure to get the first one as well. Size is about the only difference between the two. Graphics are more or less the same, though the companion AI and features are greatly improved in FO2. I play through both about once/year.

FO3 will be coming out in 2008: http://fallout.bethsoft.com

I hope Bethesda soft doesn't screw it up. Black Isle was set to do the third one back in 2001? 2002? Same gameplay style and everything, with the graphics boosted to 1024x768, but Black Isle went under before it could be released. Now that Bethesda holds the rights they've changed it to a first-person 3D game... I cross my fingers

Couple shots from the FO3 that never was...

http://jack.abyssmal.com/photo/Fallout-VanBuren_01.jpg
http://jack.abyssmal.com/photo/Fallout-VanBuren_02.jpg

 

[peach1971]

What I look for, is an environment that's properly 'alive.'

Yeah, it would be cool to have a strategic shooter where not `only` the environment is "alive",
but story and missions make individual progress depending more on player behalf & decisions.
So that there´s much less "When you reach the hill look out for..." blabla.

Those games could be developed today and shipped then as 30GB Dual Layer HD-DVD.
Or let´s just down ´em all.
ISN`T THAT WHAT WE`RE ALL REALLY LOOKING FOR??

 

[newconroer]

I'm interested in seeing a application that changes the story based on your decisions.

Remember those books as a kid you read, where at the bottom of the page you could choose your next action(s) and depending on your decision it would tell you to go to a certain page #?

Then of course you'd always wonder if you made the right choice, but convince yourself to push on; if worse came to worse you could just go back and go the other route(s).

Now, add some ingenuity, some effort and etc, and we could have games with not just 'parallel' story lines, but MULTIPLE stories.

 

[N-Gen]

Ace Combat 3 on PSX did that lmao. It came to my mind...had like 16 different endings.

 

[Fuse-Wire]

I'm interested in seeing a application that changes the story based on your decisions.

Remember those books as a kid you read, where at the bottom of the page you could choose your next action(s) and depending on your decision it would tell you to go to a certain page #?

Then of course you'd always wonder if you made the right choice, but convince yourself to push on; if worse came to worse you could just go back and go the other route(s).

Now, add some ingenuity, some effort and etc, and we could have games with not just 'parallel' story lines, but MULTIPLE stories.

there are a couple of games out that you can depict the story you're way, Jedi Knight Academy had a small element of that in-game, the turning point really was if you killed some dude who deserves a saber to the face but happened to be an ally then you joined the dark-side ( something i never done myself) or if you leave him be you gert the default movie and you stay as a Jedi. mean simple things like that make games either big hits or massive losses! what i would like to see is a game where you start as just some random dude. interacting with people, objects changes the way the rest of the AI react to you, Take for instance you start slaughtering drug dealers or pushers and in doing so thier Crew then turns against them, but if you were to stop someone getting killed IE rival gangs and you get the leader to safety, the Gang will protect you while the other gang swears vengance against you! only some random ideas clogged into my head, in fact ive got a whole plot line there!! Hopefully you get what im saying

 

[Frick]

Jedi Academy had a small element of that in-game

Jedi Academy is actually a very bad example of that as the impact is .. none, actually.

The most obvious games that have these things in them are RPG's. Like Fallout, the game I'm playing now. Or all RPG's I've played (at least the newer ones, I don't think Ragnarok counts ) at least (which only are Kotor and Fallout 2)..

But a game where the feeling "what would the game be like if I would' have made a different descision back then?" is overwhelming is Deus Ex, the first game. I've played it a bunch of times, and it still feels new and fresh. It's actually the only game I went straight to the beginning directly after completing it the first time.

IMO, there aren't games like that anymore. As newconroer said, the graphics has been top priority for a while now but the progress in that area is fading out slowly.. I think.


Anyhow, @ games from ~y2000 and forward:
I don't know how to put it, but it feels like that period was pretty empty, at least on the PC market. Some GREAT games were released, like Kotor, Beyond Good and Evil and some more, but overall I don't remember anything truly great from that period. Maybe it's because this entire online gaming thingy got huge? We have BF 1942 and a bunch of mmorpgs plus an exploding broadband market (at least hare in Sweden).

So, I think those years were kinda lost when it comes to storytelling and such. And in some ways, the industry still is lost (with some clear expections though..), but the Internets where on the rise and Wikipedia and Google became Teh Sh1t so I don't think the PC-gaming industry would've been so big without those mp-heave games.

Hopefully people realize the need of great storys and depth and get over these dark "OMG headshot lolz!!!!11!!1!!"-times.

 

[Fuse-Wire]

The most obvious games that have these things in them are RPG's.

yeah your'e right RPG's. and god how boring to RPG's get, of course whatever you do manipulates the rest of the story but thats the whole point, if it didn't it wouldnt really be a RPG, what someone needs to do is blend RPG with FPS, i havnt the scoobie Doo's how they would do something like that. Deus Ex oh nononononono i hate the origional so much it sucks!! Invisible war was good i managed to get the hang of that but the origional was just nippy, it didn't work, had a terrible story-line and it looked horrible, plus being able to be stealthed running about with a knife in MP. its like going into a lightsaber fight against thin air,

 

[Frick]

Deus Ex oh nononononono i hate the origional so much it sucks!! Invisible war was good i managed to get the hang of that but the origional was just nippy, it didn't work, had a terrible story-line and it looked horrible, plus being able to be stealthed running about with a knife in MP. its like going into a lightsaber fight against thin air,

Be quiet, play it again, look past the graphics, don't touch the multiplayer (wich was added later on in a patch), run it in windowed mode (then it works excellent for me in winXP) and embrace the philosophy of the game.

Really, once you get into the story and the game you almost cry when it's over. The second game doesn't stand a chance against the Might and Greatness of the first game.

 

[Mussels]

yeah your'e right RPG's. and god how boring to RPG's get, of course whatever you do manipulates the rest of the story but thats the whole point, if it didn't it wouldnt really be a RPG, what someone needs to do is blend RPG with FPS, i havnt the scoobie Doo's how they would do something like that. Deus Ex oh nononononono i hate the origional so much it sucks!! Invisible war was good i managed to get the hang of that but the origional was just nippy, it didn't work, had a terrible story-line and it looked horrible, plus being able to be stealthed running about with a knife in MP. its like going into a lightsaber fight against thin air,

hellgate london is an FPS/RPG mix, with an MMO side to it as well.

 

[Fuse-Wire]

im afraid no, i tried playing it, Spud107 tried for months to get me into it, just something about JC Denton and the crew in the original. ive seen it completed 3 or 4 times because of its multiple endings but it wasnt enough, its just too akward. second one is great, more FPS less Brain consuming (it was the remembering all the door codes witch did my head in). Deus EX Invisible war, had more options like, not having to remember every code in the game, It had a more splinter cell feel about it (without all the grappeling) and it can run on any system i had. Sorry to say but games like Deus Ex are dissapearing, im not didding it completely i did think it was a hugely great crafted game, it just wasnt my sort and i beleive that there are many others out there that think the same, most 13-30 year olds i know want to play FPS's like SOF2 Farcry and AVP2, only 1 person i know (Spud107) had Deus Ex, no one else i know likes it either

 

[Frick]

most 13-30 year olds i know want to play FPS's like SOF2 Farcry and AVP2, only 1 person i know (Spud107) had Deus Ex, no one else i know likes it either

That's just really sad.. AvP is a great game and all, but it's not very intelligent. The main reason I didn't like the second game was that I automaticly remebered all the codes and stuff. IMO, Deus Ex had way more depth to it. Also, I just loved the semi-philosophical things the AI's said. Like the idea of worship that Morpheus (an AI) had and that an independent, all-seeing AI would be the logical next step after god and fame. I loved the first game for the same reasons you didn't like it, it seems.

So, will we see an end to intelligent gaming? Are there intelligent games out there now, in the works? I don't think I can think of any one..

 

[Fuse-Wire]

nope, when it comes to intelligent games all your looking at is flight sims, the only real AI, mean Battle of Britain has one of the most complex AI developments in a flight sim, oh and its a stomper of a game

 

[Morgoth]

a year or 2 ago i have heard abouth half-life 2 the lowered the AI there ai was realy high

 

[Frick]

nope, when it comes to intelligent games all your looking at is flight sims, the only real AI, mean Battle of Britain has one of the most complex AI developments in a flight sim, oh and its a stomper of a game

Not "intelligent" as in "smart AI", but rather intelligent in a philosophical way. You know, discussions about life, the meaning of it and the future of men.. Not just sci-fi, but serious discussions about it. Like the different paths in Alpha Cantauri..