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Thoughts on adding downvote capability?

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Not a fan of the idea of down-vote option for posts. If there's an issue with a post, reporting should address it just fine.
 
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@W1zzard Offtopic here but here is another example of what I was talking about in the site issues 2018 thread, I have no alerts for this thread and no emails that indicate there have been 2 responses to this thread and the topic is marked as "watched" by default since I commented originally.
 
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I'm still for the idea of "Low quality post" under a different name... Such as "Off topic"..
The idea is good as it lets people ramble on about something that may not exactly be on topic but has relevance to the topic on hand.
Bringing in more mods and making the forums strict like other forums would make it like other forums and that has never been TPU.
 
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I vote no, unfortunately I would see it getting abused by people more often than it being used for some good. On sites that have it we see it time and time again where certain people who dislike each other just dislike anything posted by those users trying to silence them.

Not that I think the majority of people on this site would not abuse it. I still think there would be enough that it would cause problems in my personal opinion.
 
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I'm still for the idea of "Low quality post" under a different name... Such as "Off topic"..
The idea is good as it lets people ramble on about something that may not exactly be on topic but has relevance to the topic on hand.
Bringing in more mods and making the forums strict like other forums would make it like other forums and that has never been TPU.
They don't need more mods, they need mods able to moderate... both ability (as in permission to infract, ban, perma ban people and be a bit more heavy handed to those repeat offenders), as well as reach. Delays in response, and therefore further garbage posting, can happen because [name any mod here] wasn't online and that is their section...

I see having a mod cover a section as perhaps they are more knowledgeable, a good idea, but its handcuffing them in regards to making sure the members follow the rules, not so much.
 
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Just no. Will hurt more than help the forum imho.
 
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They don't need more mods, they need mods able to moderate... both ability (as in permission to infract, ban, perma ban people and be a bit more heavy handed to those repeat offenders), as well as reach. Delays in response, and therefore further garbage posting, can happen because [name any mod here] wasn't online and that is their section...

I see having a mod cover a section as perhaps they are more knowledgeable, a good idea, but its handcuffing them in regards to making sure the members follow the rules.
People are still going to be people...
People have to enjoy being here to help and that means people are going to go off topic and have stupid arguments over semantics and a whole plethora of reasons...
Flagging a post as off topic helps those in need of help by eliminating the garbage.

I completely agree with what you're saying too... We do have some people that seem to want to come on just to argue with someone for no reason... They are toxic and they will always be toxic.... But sometimes they actually help.
 

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suggestion has been made here
#545

and it was

no feedback as of yet on the Sugestion
I actually like that Dorset. It brings it to a mod attention, with not the same stigma as report, for them to review for being off-topic.
 
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I think TPU does almost everything better than OCN and other PC forums, but one thing I like about OCN better is there are far more moderators and they are much more strict, politics is not allowed, that is not what tech forums are about. I kind of like that about OCN as it cuts out of lot of where the toxic fights stem from.

I think instead of a downvoting system, perhaps revise forum rules to be more strict, and increase number of moderators. Also, growing our user base needs to be figured out... its such a small community, it really needs to grow, we already agreed we don't know how to do that though, so all is well.

In case you have been living under a rock, ocn has been bought out again, the final nail in the coffin of a dead forum.
 

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Thanks for the feedback so far all! I've been teetering on if this would be good or bad for TPU's community as well as I've seen such systems on other forums (notably ARS and Reddit come to mind). And on both, it is used well and also abused, but is moderated, at least in the sections I frequent.

I feel ultimately W1z wants to allow the community a chance to decide what it does/doesn't want without derailing directly into fights, insults, toxicity, and other off-topic BS where an otherwise good member and topics get drug down into oblivion. That is where I can see this upvote/downvote being useful on the member side.

I am also concerned because depending on how we implement it, obviously some users will abuse it, as said in the other thread. As said earlier, some folks that like NV or Intel will downvote AMD posts...but fanboy-ism is something we have always seen and it is something we'll have to deal with regardless of what is or isn't implemented moving forward. Fanboy-ism in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing as brand bias that can be constructively shared and understood, but the toxicity-driven, immature, insult-filled, ego-fed BS that can stem from it is something this forum can do without regardless of what happens. That and other areas that drag users and topics down is what can hurt the community.

I do like @EarthDog suggestion about letting the OP decide the best answer for their thread, I'm not even sure @W1zzard is looking at this as an option but I do see this working well in most cases on other forums, well beyond tech forums. Not sure if that is something on the table or not, or if the work to implement it is worth the effort. There will also be those soured when their solution isn't chosen, just like we still have when a user helps a member but their post isn't thanked, now they feel like they shouldn't have to help others.

  • Do you guys think choosing the best answer will help some topics?
  • When the best answer is chosen, should the thread remain open or should it be closed at that point?

Knowing some people, they will just use it to abuse the people they dont like on these forums by down voting every post they make

I agree as stated above, and is a concern. But it is abused wherever I've seen it used, and ultimately after some effective moderation it does seem the system can be quite effective and allows the community to drive the kind of content it supports. I've been thinking about this being useful here or not since it came up not long ago and haven't drawn a conclusion quite yet...but the more I think about it, the more I think yes it could. We just have to implement it in an anonymous fashion, and I feel this would have to completely do away with the thanks/likes system that exists today.

The last thing we need is users bickering because someone downvoted them. No thanks, we have enough drama without extra features between users. But if it is anonymous, and community driven, maybe some users will get the hint the way they're treating others, going off topic, going against the guidelines, etc. isn't something that folks want to see. If they don't get it, they start losing posting privileges via reply bans, infractions, etc. as their posts are downvoted, reported and we see them.


Wouldn't the "score" of the post be the sum of upvotes and downvotes?

Good question though, should we display individual votes? with usernames?

I like the median score idea as well, but I think Reddit does the "sum" style though and it works well enough and seems to be a little more aggressive for downvoted posts getting hidden that I've seen at least. Depends on how quick we want downvoted posts go get hidden/flagged as low quality or whatever.

IMHO, we should not publicly display who up/down voted on any post, I feel that's asking for more problems than it would solve by being anonymous.


How about on a up or down vote, you get nothing until say 5 people acknowledge it

I like this, that adds some weight to posts being affected by up/down voting. Though I do wonder if a weighted system would work here, it really depends on the topic and number of individuals interested and involved. But I like it! :)


As @rtwjunkie and @EarthDog have suggested, I have been on DIY forums to see the OP selects the post that best fixed the problem. An OP (not mod selected) answer that is highlighted reduces the clutter of votes.
As for being best solution, if the OP feels it helped the most, then it is a valid option. Obviously, such a system only works where technical help is required.
I still feel properly enforced moderation (less tolerance of idiotic posts) would make TPU far better than any voting system.

Agreed, if there is going to be any kind of "answer/solution found" situation, it should be chosen by the OP. I do like this system and have seen it work well elsewhere, not 100% sure it'll succeed here but I'd be game to try it. Not my call but I appreciate the feedback!


I actually like that Dorset. It brings it to a mod attention, with not the same stigma as report, for them to review for being off-topic.

That is an interesting suggestion, and I guess it depends on what is decided as we all proceed from this thread, the low quality post tool, and what W1z ultimately decides. Thanks @dorsetknob for sharing your thoughts on that prior.
  • Would you rather have a "Report LQ Post" over a community driven upvote/downvote system?

Thanks for the feedback so far folks! Let's keep this going and keep it constructive. :toast:
 

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In case you have been living under a rock, ocn has been bought out again, the final nail in the coffin of a dead forum.
Yeah, migrated to new owners at end of January and just last week still trying to nail down a rep system and fight ads showing up from the wild.

They seem to be in disarray right now, so you’re right, probably not the best place to look for ideas.
 
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Your only 16 you don't have a rep yet.


I think in a limited function downvotes would be useful, it could allow members to express their distaste for shit posting in legit threads, and allow communities to self moderate. On the flip side it could allow for abuse, and perhaps limits to prevent mass downvoting, and something like only one downvote per thread you have not posted in, to prevent fans of either side from crapping.
 

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my "Suggestion" also has the Anonymity factor ( Apart from the Mod's viewing as with the Report Button :)).
 

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This is a hard one for me. On one hand, I've seen a system like this work, think Reddit. However, Reddit has such a huge user base, that I think that is why it works out. I'd worry our user base is too small for a system like this to work. It would be too easy for someone to register a bunch of accounts and start downvoting posts from people they don't like. I mean, we are small enough that it is possible for 5 downvotes to make a difference.

But at the same time, putting some kind of limitation on who can downvote might work. Perhaps going by the number of likes a person has to determine how many downvotes they get. So maybe for every 2,500 likes a person has received, they get 1 downvote per 24 hours. So a person that has 10,000 likes gets 4 downvotes a day. It would give the community kind of a way to self moderate a little. But also prevent people from just creating a bunch of new accounts and using those to pick on people.
 
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This site is perfect if you ask me. I think a lot of IT minded people can't stop messing with things and the people that suffer are the end users. Are you really doing this to improve the site? Maybe you are trying too hard to figure out ways to better the site or justify to yourself that you are working on the site. So now, in my opinion, downvotes are just going to create a rift between the people here. I wouldn't do it. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
 

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I was for about 8 years a member of a tech site called Experts Exchange. You had to pay, so you had people right off the bat who wanted to be there and behaved well.

Anyway, my thought was that the person with the question picked the best answer, obviously because that what was what fixed the problem. If someone neglected to pick a solution, a moderator attempted to wrangle one from the OP with a reminder. After a week of no selection, THEN the generally accepted most technically competent mods would select the best answer.

The system worked great, and the answer was readily visible first.
I remember that site. I also remember reading tons of messages marked as "answer" by the mod who posted it, without any feedback from the OP.

Wizz, I really appreciate all the time you're taking to try to work a solution, as well as taking all the feedback from our community here. Personally, I don't think anything short of a few more mods/mods with more spare time to police the forums will ultimately help the issue. I do think that, as much as I enjoy political banter on occasion, that we should introduce a strict "no political references" in the forums, with a very slight exception in the news threads, when it relates directly to current, previous, or upcoming party policies.
Fanbois, we'll never get rid of, and honestly, there are many people who support one camp or other providing completely acceptable and even productive feedback here. This method of "hiding" unworthy posts is particularly useful for those situations, I think.
As for the simply toxic individuals who constantly post noise and are simply chumming the water, even the ones who provide something of quality to the community on occasion, I'm sorry, I simply don't care. If we're going to build a better community here, we've got to weight the potentially useful input of these people against the much more constant responses of "LMGTFY noob" and the like.
If people enjoy these toxic conversations (and I admit to enjoying bashing political parties in general with the worst of people), let them wander to GN. After seeing some of the noise over there, I admit a small dismay at it being associated with the better quality threads here at TPU Main, but every building needs a toilet...
 
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This is a hard one for me. On one had, I've seen a system like this work, think Reddit. However, Reddit has such a huge user base, that I think that is why it works out. I'd worry our user base is too small for a system like this to work. It would be too easy for someone to register a bunch of accounts and start downvoting posts from people they don't like. I mean, we are small enough that it is possible for 5 downvotes to make a difference.

But at the same time, putting some kind of limitation on who can downvote might work. Perhaps going by the number of likes a person has to determine how many downvotes they get. So maybe for every 2,500 likes a person has received, they get 1 downvote per 24 hours. So a person that has 10,000 likes gets 4 downvotes a day. It would give the community kind of a way to self moderate a little. But also prevent people from just creating a bunch of new accounts and using those to pick on people.
I agree with all of this post except the part about new id's just to downvote. Maybe that will happen, but I highly doubt it. I also believe it to be a one off situation more so than scorned members coming back to do such a thing.

That said, something else that needs worked on is the ability to keep banned members out. Seems they can't for whatever reason. How many ID's of that sew333/litwicki24 guy have I personally caught here? I think we are pushing a dozen. So, its not like if someone is banned here, it isn't easy to get right back in...I mean christ, you don't even have to change your IP (do you... and how easy is that anyway)... cookies won't do it... its like a sieve :(. This isn't including soft moderation where banned members were allowed back in...

Stop writing code to cover up weak practices...take a deeper look in the mirror and tighten the ship up the right way. :)

that we should introduce a strict "no political references" in the forums, with a very slight exception in the news threads, when it relates directly to current, previous, or upcoming party policies.
We do this at OCF, but, there aren't many people here talking political that I have seen... bigger fish to fry IMO.
 

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This is a hard one for me. On one had, I've seen a system like this work, think Reddit. However, Reddit has such a huge user base, that I think that is why it works out. I'd worry our user base is too small for a system like this to work. It would be too easy for someone to register a bunch of accounts and start downvoting posts from people they don't like. I mean, we are small enough that it is possible for 5 downvotes to make a difference.

But at the same time, putting some kind of limitation on who can downvote might work. Perhaps going by the number of likes a person has to determine how many downvotes they get. So maybe for every 2,500 likes a person has received, they get 1 downvote per 24 hours. So a person that has 10,000 likes gets 4 downvotes a day. It would give the community kind of a way to self moderate a little. But also prevent people from just creating a bunch of new accounts and using those to pick on people.


I agree on the user base count being a concern for just how effective an up/down vote system would be on TPU. We would have to tune it over time, and I also where I don't know if a 5-vote limit for up/down effectiveness would be usable throughout the entire forum, though I still like that as suggested above by @Jetster .

I do like the idea you bring up limiting the down votes any one member is authorized to use attributed to something they've earned by spending time here. I feel though, if we add upvote/downvote we should remove the likes system, that is purely my opinion, but using the upvote to calculate likes/reputation as other sites do would replace our current like system IMHO. Maybe that's what you're thinking too though.

On the actual number of downvotes, were you thinking forum-wide or per-topic? I feel it would need to be a per-topic situation just to ensure that a member has the choice to downvote. Limiting it makes it count, but too limited makes it useless. Finding that fine line in a community this size could definitely be a challenge, but that leads to a question if that challenge is worth pursuing or not as well.

I also have another question that came to mind while responding to you that I'm curious to see what folks think. If we do deploy this system, should we allow up-votes and down-votes to be reversible if possible?
 
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  • Do you guys think choosing the best answer will help some topics?
  • When the best answer is chosen, should the thread remain open or should it be closed at that point?

  • Would you rather have a "Report LQ Post" over a community driven upvote/downvote system?

Thanks for the feedback so far folks! Let's keep this going and keep it constructive. :toast:

Bullet point 1: Sure, it'll help some topics, but the best answer may only be useful for some people when they're searching the problem. If Bob got 7 suggestions in his post about his system being slow and suggestion #5 works for him, doesn't mean it works for everyone else. Maybe Frank finds the tread and suggestion #2 would have worked for him. Then Jim comes along and suggestion #7 would have worked for him, but the readers only try to the "Best Answer" post and don't get a desired resolution.... It may just be better to allow the OP to mark the problem as resolved and not the exact post so others can read through and find what worked best for the OP or what works best for them.

Bullet point 2: You're damned if you and damned if you don't. Not sure what end of the spectrum would be more beneficial.

Bullet point 3: Huh....guess it depends on how much interaction you'd expect from readers. Usually if a post is crap or off-topic I just ignore it and move on. I'm not one that really up or down votes things. I hand out "Thanks" (or now known as "Likes") here from time to time, but those are for informal posts that provide me with information I need. I don't report posts unless they're clearly created just to spite/hate someone or provide absolutely wrong information to a problem.....these are far and few between for me, I'm not even sure if I've ever reported anyone here on TPU. I have on Steam forums - those can get nasty at times. I don't know how much help you'd receive from most readers to flag a post as off-topic. I know it would help bring issues to a mod's attention, but how much work do you expect a reader to assist with? Some readers will be great at this, lending a hand. Others, like me, not so much because I'm working on breezing through things and skipping over the stupid crap people post.
 
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This site is perfect if you ask me. I think a lot of IT minded people can't stop messing with things and the people that suffer are the end users. Are you really doing this to improve the site? Maybe you are trying too hard to figure out ways to better the site or justify to yourself that you are working on the site. So now, in my opinion, downvotes are just going to create a rift between the people here. I wouldn't do it. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
First off... FatLeeAdama???
And with that pic...bwahahahaha
That is awesome...
This is a great community... But there's been issues with getting people help because some members just show up to be toxic... With no relevance to problem of the OP and it's exhausting to get through to see if the OP still needs help... And that's coming from a member POV... The mods are probably getting overwhelmed by it when they just want to help.
Something needs done... And w1Z is looking for an answer...
I'm happy he's asking what we think.. He doesn't have to... Which is another reason this is a great site.
 
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How about all posts remain hidden until they get +5 ambiguous up votes.

Tagging posts with specific labels makes way more sense: Solution, Helpful, Thoughtful, Rude, Offensive, Garbage, etc, ... If you want quality posts, the readers have to put effort into deciphering it.
 

the54thvoid

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How about all posts remain hidden until they get +5 ambiguous up votes.

Tagging posts with specific labels makes way more sense: Solution, Helpful, Thoughtful, Rude, Offensive, Garbage, etc, ... If you want quality posts, the readers have to put effort into deciphering it.

I'm not going to run around solving puzzles to read posts..... To many options make the system unworkable as well.
 
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