Unable to cool 9900KS @5 Ghz on all cores without any limits

[oxrufiioxo]

Anyways, I found why is my pump speed reported only half the speed. It's something related to dual pulse and motherboard can read only one, so you should double the reading.
Tomorrow i will start lowering the voltage manually. At the moment, I am on adaptive+, HWMonitor reports voltage up to 1.3-1.32v, i have lost 200 pts of Cinebench R20 benchmark, because of adaptive voltage. As soon as i set it to Auto, temps increase by 5 degrees and bench is back to 5210 pts.
I have never had worst experience with things that should be working straight out of the box...



Those that came with the case - Silent wings 2 (3pin) 140mm fans (non-pwm).

The 9900k is a challenge with the best cooling and a case with very good airflow..... Going into it you should have expected a challenge imo.

 

[vMax65]

One thing that a person has already pointed out is your case is certainly not helping. A good Mesh fronted case like the Fractal Design Meshifi series or the Cooler Master H500P Mesh type case will make a difference especially if you have the radiator in the top of the case extracting air with the front fans bringing in cool air.

As importantly the lowest stable vcore which takes time to get right especially with LLC and a drop the AVX Offset will drop temps. The 360mm AIO should be more than up to the job so I would just take time on working the best vcore and a better case will help.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

the way i see it - you need more airflow. add a 3rd fan to the front. Even better if you get static pressure fans like corsair ML's that move a tonne of air and replace the 3 front fans with them. I run all corsair ML fans on my setup and at their lowest rpm i cant hear them.

SInce you have a 360mm AIO and a 120 or 140mm at the back. your system is being starved of cool air being moved into the case. The more fans you can use to pull cooler air from the outside and have it exhausted out of your case the better..... But of course that comes at the cost of more noise and of course more money....

There is no easy way to tip toe around this. your ambient temp is pretty hot as well anyway. 27'c ambient isnt 'hot' hot but still pretty hot.

 

[vMax65]

One thing that a person has already pointed out is your case is certainly not helping. A good Mesh fronted case like the Fractal Design Meshifi series or the Cooler Master H500P Mesh will make a difference especially if you have the radiator in the top of the case extracting air with the front bringing in cool air.

As importantly the lowest stable vcore which takes time to get right especially with LLC and a drop in the AVX number will drop temps.

Aslo someone

Thats very nice results.
Been thinking to delid my 8700k, but it already benches at 5.4ghz on stock TIM. Still contemplating the worthyness while Ill be closer to 1.6v at 5.5ghz vs the 1.520v at 5.4ghz. Starts to become a hog.
Obviously Im not using this daily... Well I bench on it almost daily, but with sub ambient liquid cooling instead.

I eventually took the dive and delidded my 8700K and I have to admit the temp drop was just amazing at around 15 to 18 degree C. I can now run my 8700K at 4.9GHz with 2.78v 24/7 with temps well under control. Prime95 small FFT's and I do not break into the 70 degrees with mid 60's. Even at 5GHz it is well under control though my 8700K requires 1.35v which I just do not want to run 24/7...4.9GHz is more than good enough for me...but a delid did a great job...may well be worth a look for you especially as you are pushing your CPU to max and beyond....

 

[Okys]

The 9900k is a challenge with the best cooling and a case with very good airflow..... Going into it you should have expected a challenge imo.

Better than that may be only custom loop. As I said, i tried running without front cover and 3x140mm front fans had access to air immediately. Opened the side cover. Nothing helps. It's just impossible, that 9900K is showing better results than my 9900KS. Something is definately wrong or faulty on this build. And every 360 AIO, 280 AIO should be +/- the same...

 

[vMax65]

Better than that may be only custom loop. As I said, i tried running without front cover and 3x140mm front fans had access to air immediately. Opened the side cover. Nothing helps. It's just impossible, that 9900K is showing better results than my 9900KS. Something is definately wrong or faulty on this build. And every 360 AIO, 280 AIO should be +/- the same...

Well I think you may be right in that you have an issue with the build. I do not think this is purely cooling related as a 280mm or 360mm AIO is able to keep the 9900KS in check at 5GHz...yes it gets hot but more than manageable.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Better than that may be only custom loop. As I said, i tried running without front cover and 3x140mm front fans had access to air immediately. Opened the side cover. Nothing helps. It's just impossible, that 9900K is showing better results than my 9900KS. Something is definately wrong or faulty on this build. And every 360 AIO, 280 AIO should be +/- the same...

I agree you should be running a bit cooler but I would still expect around 90C if you're trying to run 5ghz all core with any kind of AVX workload with all limits disabled.


The majority of reviews are done at 20-22C on an open test bench so I would not compare your results to them.

The first thing I would try is getting your vcore under 1.3 and preferable 1.25-1.28.

 

[mrthanhnguyen]

My 9900ks runs at 5.2ghz and it is hot too; however it is still cooler than my previous 9900k. My 9900k runs 5ghz all core 1.33v avx 0 hit 90c during stress test. 9900ks 5.2ghz 1.36v hit only 85 . During gaming, its under 60c

 

[R-T-B]

Everyone saying "don't focus on the 5Ghz" is out of their mind. The entire point of the chip is the 5Ghz all-core turbo.

Turbo being keyword.

He's getting the turbo. He's upset he can't sustain it. That's not unusual, this is one friggin hot chip.

 

[Deleted member 185158]

One thing that a person has already pointed out is your case is certainly not helping. A good Mesh fronted case like the Fractal Design Meshifi series or the Cooler Master H500P Mesh will make a difference especially if you have the radiator in the top of the case extracting air with the front bringing in cool air.

As importantly the lowest stable vcore which takes time to get right especially with LLC and a drop in the AVX number will drop temps.

Aslo someone


I eventually took the dive and delidded my 8700K and I have to admit the temp drop was just amazing at around 15 to 18 degree C. I can now run my 8700K at 4.9GHz with 2.78v 24/7 with temps well under control. Prime95 small FFT's and I do not break into the 70 degrees with mid 60's. Even at 5GHz it is well under control though my 8700K requires 1.35v which I just do not want to run 24/7...4.9GHz is more than good enough for me...but a delid did a great job...may well be worth a look for you especially as you are pushing your CPU to max and beyond....

My water Delta is 9c. The cpu idle varies though I don't watch it much. 15-35c depending on how much v-core I use.

Gonna try this de-lid thing. Won't be my first rodeo, so I won't have shaky hands lol.

I can see why the 9900's are soldered though. Just so many cores. Bet cut them in half (turn off HT??) for daily use, get some decent frequency to play with huh???

 

[Agentbb007]

It's just impossible, that 9900K is showing better results than my 9900KS. Something is definately wrong or faulty on this build. And every 360 AIO, 280 AIO should be +/- the same...

I'm sure you've got better silicon then my 9900K, I just think you're pushing too much voltage which is causing the high temps.
To get mine 100% load AVX stable at 4.9GHz using manual voltage I have to push 1.30V. And I couldn't get AVX 5GHz stable without like 1.4V and my temps go 100C and my CPU throttles.

I agree with oxrufiioxo I'd recommend using Manual Voltage and trying to get 5GHz stable at the lowest possible voltage start at like 1.28V and go up .01V until it's stable and I bet your temps will be under 90C too.

Silicon Lottery says 100% 9900KS were able to hit 5GHz at 1.25V but that's with a AVX Offset of 2 so really they would be at 4.8GHz for Cinebench R20. The only chip SIlicon Lottery sells that claims 5GHz AVX would be the 5.2GHz chip and they say that's only top 3% of 9900KS they've tested. So I dunno does Intel promise 5GHz AVX on the 9900KS?

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[Okys]

An update to this:
After setting voltage to manual 1.25v, it was around 1.225v in Windows. I can now run Cinebench R20 with closed case and much less noise on 5 Ghz AVX as much as i want and temps do not exceed 80-82 degrees.
How come Auto regulation or Adaptive voltage is so bad on Maximus XI Hero with 9900KS? I am running 8700K on Maximus X Hero in my PC and i was able to select Best Case Scenario, keep everything on auto and cool it down with Noctua NH-D15S @4.8 Ghz in the same tests.
If i remember correctly, idle temps are now higher for 9900KS, but i better have them around 40 and max around 80, instead of 96 and lots of noise from fans.
One more thing i can't understand is the Cinebench score.
The only way to hit around 5200 pts which i found is an average for 5ghz all core for 9900K/9900KS ,is to keep core voltage to Auto. Then it hits around 181W TDP, 96 degrees @ 5 Ghz

At the same time Adaptive+ or Manual give these results at 5 Ghz. Except that Adaptive do much higher temps.

I took the screenshot after the test finished running, but you see the Max values, and while running, saw all the cores running at 5 Ghz.

 

[Zach_01]

Is this AIO suppose to work by it self in auto mode or needs software control, like Corsairs?
Does it have multiple modes of operation Hi/Lo/balanced) or just the one?

Is there any way to monitor water temp? That would explain a lot...

 

[Agentbb007]

How come Auto regulation or Adaptive voltage is so bad on Maximus XI Hero with 9900KS? I am running 8700K on Maximus X Hero in my PC and i was able to select Best Case Scenario, keep everything on auto and cool it down with Noctua NH-D15S @4.8 Ghz in the same tests.

I think it's because Intel 9th gen introduced something called Thermal Velocity Boost (TVB) which messes with voltages. You also have to take into account IA AC Load Line and IA DC Load Line settings which are under the "Internal CPU Power Management" menu in the UEFI.
This post has lots of detailed info but it gets really complicated and I don't understand it

MCE explanations and others

MCE I’m seeing quite a lot of misunderstanding the workings of MCE so I’m partly writing this to address it. It is not the taboo that it has been made up to become. There are 3 options for it, namely Auto, enabled and disabled. Enabled merely maxes out Power...

rog.asus.com

But from what my little brain can grasp I've learned Auto and Adaptive do some complicated voltage calculations so are difficult to set to a specific voltage and usually just push high voltage so they are stable. So I would just stick to Manual because it's simple and you know exactly what voltage you're setting.

One more thing i can't understand is the Cinebench score.
The only way to hit around 5200 pts which i found is an average for 5ghz all core for 9900K/9900KS ,is to keep core voltage to Auto. Then it hits around 181W TDP, 96 degrees @ 5 Ghz
At the same time Adaptive+ or Manual give these results at 5 Ghz. Except that Adaptive do much higher temps.

Good question, does higher voltage increase performance even if you leave the CPU clock frequency the same? Try increasing your voltage to say 1.3V and re-run Cinebench 20 and see if your score increases. If not then Auto/Adaptive must be changing more then just the CPU Vcore.

 

[Okys]

Is this AIO suppose to work by it self in auto mode or needs software control, like Corsairs?
Does it have multiple modes of operation Hi/Lo/balanced) or just the one?

Is there any way to monitor water temp? That would explain a lot...

The pump connector is 3-pin, and when connected, it's running full speed all the time. I was confused before because it only showed around 1780 rmp, but i found a post explaining the dual pulse thing, so the motherboard only sees half the speed (single pulse).
The fans are 4-pin PWM, 0.7A each, so it's around 2A total for 3 of them. Normal fan and cpu connectors on the motherboard are rated 1A each, so i connected all 3 of them to H_AMP connector, which is 3A and disabled the CPU_FAN monitoring in BIOS.
Fans can be controlled either using the included remote or by just connecting them to motherboard like in my case. And it works fine.
Not sure about water temp, have to check that later when wifes PC will be available again.

Good question, does higher voltage increase performance even if you leave the CPU clock frequency the same? Try increasing your voltage to say 1.3V and re-run Cinebench 20 and see if your score increases. If not then Auto/Adaptive must be changing more then just the CPU Vcore.

I really hope someone explains this. I will try your suggestion later, but I believe something else acts differently or gets changed, when Vcore is changed from Auto to Manual. About the LLC i don't really understand that much so I kept that on Auto aswell and I remember BIOS showing some kind of predictions for it.

So, to summarize it up:
It is now stable at 5 Ghz all core AVX load (Cinebench R20), manual 1.25v vcore (1.225v in HWMonitor). Temps do not exceed 82 degrees. The only thing is Cinebench score around 200 pts lower than the one with Vcore set to Auto.

 

[Vayra86]

Anyways, I found why is my pump speed reported only half the speed. It's something related to dual pulse and motherboard can read only one, so you should double the reading.
Tomorrow i will start lowering the voltage manually. At the moment, I am on adaptive+, HWMonitor reports voltage up to 1.3-1.32v, i have lost 200 pts of Cinebench R20 benchmark, because of adaptive voltage. As soon as i set it to Auto, temps increase by 5 degrees and bench is back to 5210 pts.
I have never had worst experience with things that should be working straight out of the box...



Those that came with the case - Silent wings 2 (3pin) 140mm fans (non-pwm).

You should definitely try to bench with an open case (both side panels off) and see what happens, just to get a feel of the impact of the case on your temps.

That way you can get a better judgment on what is happening with your other components. I doubt you have faulty gear, tbh. Judging from your last post you run a very comfy vcore now, and 82C is safe but it does also read like on the hot side given your cooling. 1.25V isn't a whole lot, and when you say Cinebench AVX load, is it really running 5 Ghz or are you using an offset?

I think it's because Intel 9th gen introduced something called Thermal Velocity Boost (TVB) which messes with voltages. You also have to take into account IA AC Load Line and IA DC Load Line settings which are under the "Internal CPU Power Management" menu in the UEFI.
This post has lots of detailed info but it gets really complicated and I don't understand it

MCE explanations and others

MCE I’m seeing quite a lot of misunderstanding the workings of MCE so I’m partly writing this to address it. It is not the taboo that it has been made up to become. There are 3 options for it, namely Auto, enabled and disabled. Enabled merely maxes out Power...

rog.asus.com

But from what my little brain can grasp I've learned Auto and Adaptive do some complicated voltage calculations so are difficult to set to a specific voltage and usually just push high voltage so they are stable. So I would just stick to Manual because it's simple and you know exactly what voltage you're setting.

Good question, does higher voltage increase performance even if you leave the CPU clock frequency the same? Try increasing your voltage to say 1.3V and re-run Cinebench 20 and see if your score increases. If not then Auto/Adaptive must be changing more then just the CPU Vcore.

Auto modes are usually set by manufacturer of board, while manual adheres to the voltage table intel sets for each multiplier. At least, that is what it looks/feels like on the boards I've seen.

 

[LAN_deRf_HA]

An update to this:
After setting voltage to manual 1.25v, it was around 1.225v in Windows. I can now run Cinebench R20 with closed case and much less noise on 5 Ghz AVX as much as i want and temps do not exceed 80-82 degrees.
How come Auto regulation or Adaptive voltage is so bad on Maximus XI Hero with 9900KS? I am running 8700K on Maximus X Hero in my PC and i was able to select Best Case Scenario, keep everything on auto and cool it down with Noctua NH-D15S @4.8 Ghz in the same tests.
If i remember correctly, idle temps are now higher for 9900KS, but i better have them around 40 and max around 80, instead of 96 and lots of noise from fans.
One more thing i can't understand is the Cinebench score.
The only way to hit around 5200 pts which i found is an average for 5ghz all core for 9900K/9900KS ,is to keep core voltage to Auto. Then it hits around 181W TDP, 96 degrees @ 5 Ghz

At the same time Adaptive+ or Manual give these results at 5 Ghz. Except that Adaptive do much higher temps.

View attachment 137407

I took the screenshot after the test finished running, but you see the Max values, and while running, saw all the cores running at 5 Ghz.

This temp makes sense, but so did your initial temp. The voltage makes a huge difference, and seeing 9900k/s chips hitting high 90s around 5ghz on top tier cooling is insanely common. I'd call it the norm, even with a big custom loop. Some people even utilize the optional 115C tj max. I also wouldn't hold onto the past with this notion of not using AVX offset. When you get no offset 5ghz stable that just means you're pissing away the 5.2ghz non-avx speeds you could also be getting.

 

[eidairaman1]

there aren't any real world gains to be made at 5 GHz vs 4.5 GHz, don't drive yourself crazy trying to achieve it.

Yup hmmv lol.

Gotta keep vrms cool too

 

[mrthanhnguyen]

with real time priority cinebench jumps a few points, so you may want to try it. The last time I ran cinebench r20, it hit like 5400, but this time in the 5300 range,so you may see the number up and down.

 

[Deleted member 185158]

with real time priority cinebench jumps a few points, so you may want to try it. The last time I ran cinebench r20, it hit like 5400, but this time in the 5300 range,so you may see the number up and down.

View attachment 137425

Nice whats the memory at?

 

[Arctucas]

Highlighted a few of the important things.

 

[mrthanhnguyen]

View attachment 137434





Highlighted a few of the important things.

Golden 9900k. You hit the silicon lottery.

 

[exodusprime1337]

Just a quick time and my 2 cents. As long as you get the AIO pump speed sorted or have it sorted already, drop the vccio and vcsa down to 1.21 and 1.18 respectively. I'll have to check my bios for the same settings but i'm running roughly the same setup as you, board, ram, and just a 9900k at 5.1 stable, and i hit high 70's and low 80's on custom water. Dropping those two voltages from auto gave me a lot of headroom though.

 

[Aaron_Henderson]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but how are the fans on your AIO set up? Are they exhaust or intake?

 

[trog100]

my 9900k which is a good one runs 5 g at 1.24 core voltage.. but with prolonged running lets say ten minutes it gets too hot...

the 9900ks is designed to throttle down to 4.7 g after 30 seconds or so..

i only game with mine so i turn HT off and run at 5 g.. my chip games at around 65C or a bit less.. mind you it does this HT on or off... its stuff that (cpu benchmarks) runs the chip on all cylinders that cause it to run hot after ten minutes or so.. turning HT off just stops this happening..

trog