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Video cards and DX10 / DX11

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Guys I get this question all the time. Do you think that DX10 cards will be obsolete any time soon. To clarify will there be any Dx11 only games or applications in the future. My response is no Dx10 and Dx11 are similar and most future game and applications will not only support them but even Dx9. Am I giving bad advice here what do you think?
 
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Personally I consider DX9-DX10 obsolete with the advent of DX11. Why would you settle for less if you can have DX11 and with modern day cards being priced right that support DX11, just make it the standard. Truth is support for those API's will most likely continue for a good while till something like DX12 introduces optimization features that will blow DX9-11 out the water. I really think DX10 was more of gimmick though I wish we had just skipped vista and DX10 and went straight to 7 with 11. Just my opinion though.
 

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no DX10 cards are fine for the long term as DX11 has a built in feature that allows developers to simple switch from DX11 to DX10 to DX9 render paths and it basically removes certain features etc basically its an easy button for the developers so DX9 and even DX10 gpus will still be able to run games for a long while to come. granted those DX9 era gpus will only get 1fps but still theyll work for a long while yet as well
 
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Personally I consider DX9-DX10 obsolete with the advent of DX11. Why would you settle for less if you can have DX11 and with modern day cards being priced right that support DX11, just make it the standard. Truth is support for those API's will most likely continue for a good while till something like DX12 introduces optimization features that will blow DX9-11 out the water. I really think DX10 was more of gimmick though I wish we had just skipped vista and DX10 and went straight to 7 with 11. Just my opinion though.

This was for people who are wanting to upgrade from DX10 cards, not buying new and not necessarily having and existing card. If you were buying a new video card the newest feature would always be the best. I also like Vista and if you are using Window 7 64 bit then you are really just using a simplified version of Vista 64 with a few changes. Atleast that how I see it and I own machines with all three of the latest os's XP, Vista and 7. I see very little difference in Vista and 7 very little.
 
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This was for people who are wanting to upgrade from DX10 cards not buying new and not having and existing card. If you were to simply buying a new the newest feature would always be the best.

If your going to be upgrading DX11 would be an upgrade. I don't see the point in spending money and just buying another DX10 card. Save up and get your self a card that does DX11. I'm not saying new is always the best but DX11 definitely has potentially better eye candy and DirectCompute 5, which hopefully we will see something more come from this.
 
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If your going to be upgrading DX11 would be an upgrade. I don't see the point in spending money and just buying another DX10 card. Save up and get your self a card that does DX11. I'm not saying new is always the best but DX11 definitely has potentially better eye candy.

Well this isn't for me and the latest person to ask was a guy buying a gtx 275 from me for, at the time, about 40 percent less than a comparable DX11 geforce card. He already had one GTX 275 and was going SLi. In his case it made sense.
 
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Well this isn't for me and the latest person to ask was a guy buying a gtx 275 from me for at the time about 40 percent less than a comparable DX11 geforce card.

I'd personally ask the guy to wait and see if he can save up to get a this generation card. If not and he can't wait so be it. Not trying to mess with your sales or anything just what I would do.
 
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I'd personally ask the guy to wait and see if he can save up to get a this generation card. If not and he can't wait so be it. Not trying to mess with your sales or anything just what I would do.

Well when you consider the loss of money in the sale, shipping, fees and all the rest to sell his existing card, for some people it doesn't make good sense money wise. They feel buying a second card at half it's original cost and getting a 40 percent performance increase is the way to go. Also you know people want it now and don't want to wait. Then as a final thought the Dx11 question springs to the front. Thats when this thread becomes relevant to the purchase.
 
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Well when you consider the loss of money in the sale shipping, fees and all the rest to sell his existing card, for some people it doesn't make good sense money wise. They feel buying a second card at half it's original cost and getting a 40 percent performance increase is the way to go. Also you know people want it now and don't want to wait.

Let me put it this way.

I tend to think in terms of how long will this card last me in the long run. I ask myself how future proof is this card. I don't want to spend $100 here $100 there another $100 there buying card after card when I could have saved up $300 and bought a great card that would last me. This is what I did my 3870X2 it played every game just fine even through the 4000 series and runs great still. Now the DX11 cards are out and I bought me a 2GB 5870 cause its only logical that games will make use of more GPU RAM. Like my X2 I don't plan on getting a new card till at least the 7 series or whenever a new API might come out that my card just won't be able to handle.

In conclusion I saved money in the long run and had good performance in games now.
 
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Guys I get this question all the time. Do you think that DX10 cards will be obsolete any time soon. To clarify will there be any Dx11 only games or applications in the future. My response is no Dx10 and Dx11 are similar and most future game and applications will not only support them but even Dx9. Am I giving bad advice here what do you think?

DX10 cards will be relevant till next gen consoles come out. All PC games now are console ports and they wont stray from this until consoles actually get their act together.
 

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also considering microsoft stated that they will be keeping the 360 around for another 5 years means not much will change long term either.

and as i said every single DX10 gpu can run a DX11 game because DX11 ONLY dosent really exist the API is programmed to have feature lvl supports that allow for DX9 DX10 DX10.1 and DX11 support as such this is a non issue DX10 and DX11 are fairly different but due to feature lvl support built in everything tends to be easy peasy for developers and gamers alive. People need to remember the biggest issue with DX10 support was being tied to vista only where as DX11 as an API with its support of dx10 10.1 etc etc offers wider consumer base of usable PC's that can run games using that API. because support it there for every gpu from the last 4-5 years which when u think about it is ancient in terms of PC hardware
 
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Personally, I don't think DX10 ever really took off. So, DX10 is dead to me. Since games are hampered by consoles which use DX9, it's still going to be DX9 for a while as the standard. I wouldn't expect any DX11 only titles for another year or so. DX11 features can be added on top of DX9 and look better than both DX9 and DX10, so we'll get a nice mixed bag for a while.
 

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i think for most people upgrading their gpu to get DX 11 is a big waste of money so long as their current dx 10 card can still play games at native resolution over 30 fps with some AA.

i own 2x 280s and these cards blow DX 10 games out of the water at 1920x1080 and 8x AA playing dirt 2 and company of heroes.

unless you are made of money it is pointless.
 
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no reall dx11 titles out that look any better than coperable dx10 titles. While metro 2033 does support tessalation it doesn't have enough otessalation to show a noticible difference when compared to the tessalation in the heaven benchmark. It seems that much of the comparison seems to come from dx9-dx11 (dirt 2) rather than a dx10-dx11 comparison.

I think it'll be a year at least before we see titles util;izing that heavy of tessalation, by then the current gen cards will be old and slow in comparison with what's out at that time.

I always put it in terms of games, if you can play every single game out there and it looks great, then you're fine.

if you see a new title coming out that requires dx11 features to look that good, then build your rig around the launch date of that game, not before. If you do it before you'll likely end up going to a 470 from a gtx295 and get a considerably worse gaming experience.

pretties are great, unless your gpu can't handle the load. at which point the guy who stuck with the older gen but faster card is enjoying himself while the guy who jumped on the bandwagon is trying to clock the crap out of his card.

http://www.overclock.net/pc-games/690645-metro-2033-dx9-vs-dx11-without-5.html
edit: post number 49, lookign at them now so i don't know the results yet but at elast it's a comparison.

edit2, so the only difference I see is gamma? wtf is going on dx9 with hdr can do similar lighting, why is that only shwoing up under dx11, tessalation makes no noticible improvment on thos shots.
 
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Tessellation in Metro is used only on character models. That said its use is limited and not done in any way that is worth while. Tesslation makes more sense on more organic items or on architecture.
Off

On



Current Gen low resolution In game mesh:


The above image for example is the mesh in game now thats around 8k-11k triangles the SOURCE mesh for the normal map is over 1 billion polygons thats highest subdivided lvl for detail thats used for the above enemy in Gears of War to derive a normal map. Tessellation would allow for that character to hit say 100k when he is in your face mixed with a normal map, that would offer improved Image Quality.


The left is the mesh in game middle left is said mesh with the normals smoothed, mid right is normal mapped far right is color map + normal = example of todays game engines and how it typically works



3 stages of detail in doing normal mapping


The above image is a character sculpt as done for normal mapping far left is the base for in game middle is half detail lvl far right is the finished sculpt. Tessellation would allow us to use the far left mesh as the furthest low rez mesh but wait, with tessellation you can dynamically increase the subdivision patches meaning as you get closer the character gets more detailed. When this is done dynamically it would again eliminate LOD lvls and offer dynamic detail changes that are not noticeable to the naked eye like what we see in games today, with standard LOD meshes.


The pouches, wrinkles, goggles, and helmet are smoothed out a bit, is it super noticeable no of course it isn't. I can say though that it is a step forward, yes tessellation provides better image quality in way today,s PCs can actually handle it. I am sorry but are gpus cant process 30-100million polygons a sec let along billions of them used in source models for normal maps in todays games. On top of that with shit happening on screen physics textures AI etc etc getting it at playable frame rates wont be possible for a long time. Tessllation is a stop gap if you will it offers improvements with acceptable loss of frame rate.

The fact is in games like Gears of War the source game model is over 1 billion polygons for 1 character as you can guess that's not possible in real time today as in nothing can run that in a game environment, most meshes are around 10k-15k some are higher but as u can guess 10-15k 4 sided polygons aka 20-30k triangles are gonna leave flat areas. This is why we have normal mapping which FAKES depth, now we have tesselation that systematically rounds out those areas offering TRUE depth and not faked depth. You will not notice a huge difference again, but its there. Now we can all piss and moan but at the end of the day its progress.



The mesh on the left is what we would see in a game the mesh on the right is the final sculpted mesh that we use to get normal maps from to apply ontop of the low rez to make it look good. Tesselation allows the use of the mesh in the middle with a normal map on top for an overall improved character its smoother it has more polygons it will animate smoother deform better etc etc. It isnt apparent today but it will make its present felt later on.

Another example would be LOD or level of Detail adjustments that game engines do. There's usually 3 or 4 models that are switched in and out as you get closer or farther away, now for 1 minute lets get rid of LOD and add in dynamic tesselation that would make the switch impossible to detect. Think of that for a moment no more LOD no more low rez models magically popping in with higher resolution meshes as u move about. The transition would be seamless that is what tesselation will allow. It will allow the dynamic changing of the entire game world in real time so as to replace LOD it will be a long while till thats the norm but that is the direction tessellation will be heading.

http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=63624&page=3

at the above thread you will see the subdivided lvls of the meshes with all accessories the above mesh hits around 1billion polygons in its highest lvls again something normal gpus just cant do in a game environment which is again why tessellation is important as a tech advancement. To put it bluntly we need to push for tessellation to improve to be used more we need to demand it because the sooner developers harness its potential the better it is for us as gamers.
 
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^^ I understand its progress and i really bought into the DX11 gimmick but right now i think tessellation is overrated. I wish they would implement the other functions of DX11 that will help game play without enabling something that you can hardly tell and take a huge performance hit.
 

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im just putting up facts so i dont see fud get spread around we might not see the difference today or a year from now but the fact is this is the only way we will get to see extremely lifelike characters or objects in a game anytime soon. Imagine say Oblivion if it use tesselation even a little on the architecture or on armor etc trees and other things theres ways to use tesslation thats good and ways to basically make it meaningless that said metro 2033 uses it in a meaningless way in my opinion
 
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im just putting up facts so i dont see fud get spread around we might not see the difference today or a year from now but the fact is this is the only way we will get to see extremely lifelike characters or objects in a game anytime soon. Imagine say Oblivion if it use tesselation even a little on the architecture or on armor etc trees and other things theres ways to use tesslation thats good and ways to basically make it meaningless that said metro 2033 uses it in a meaningless way in my opinion

I agree overall well said sir
 

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exactly. the new tech makes little difference now but it is a step in the right direction. it is progress and it is not always easy to see. that is way people who invest in the right tech always end up making bags and bags of money. anyway, the same concept applies to the new blu-ray triple layer tech. most people don't see any reason for it but like DX 11 it is a step in the right direction.
 
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no way DX10 cards will still be good for a while, until new consoles come out and developers truly start to utilize the new DX11 code on more games then DX10 cards are still good, DX9 though, DX9 should have died long ago, the only reason its still around is because the 360 uses a modified version of DX 9 and thats where the money is, but we will never really see what DX10 was capable of because of vista's criticism
 
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maybe its just me but I dont see a difference really in those metro shots. well maybe a tiny bit but not enough to justify spending $400 on a gpu for.
 

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true but theres another point ppl miss Tesselation allows us to stop using LOD lvls instead using dynamic polygon tesselation means no more objects popping in from low quality to high quality etc
 
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I forgot how much consoles have an influence on the PC gaming market. I really think more RAM on a GPU can do a lot. I don't know much on graphics but parallaxed bump map high res textures in Oblivion made a world of difference in visuals as long as you as you had the Vram to play it.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
5,147 (0.77/day)
Location
AZ
System Name Thought I'd be done with this by now
Processor i7 11700k 8/16
Motherboard MSI Z590 Pro Wifi
Cooling Be Quiet Dark Rock Pro 4, 9x aigo AR12
Memory 32GB GSkill TridentZ Neo DDR4-4000 CL18-22-22-42
Video Card(s) MSI Ventus 2x Geforce RTX 3070
Storage 1TB MX300 M.2 OS + Games, + cloud mostly
Display(s) Samsung 40" 4k (TV)
Case Lian Li PC-011 Dynamic EVO Black
Audio Device(s) onboard HD -> Yamaha 5.1
Power Supply EVGA 850 GQ
Mouse Logitech wireless
Keyboard same
VR HMD nah
Software Windows 10
Benchmark Scores no one cares anymore lols
thanks for the pics crazyeyes from what i see, we're a long way off from me getting more image bang for my buck on dx11 vs a cheaper dx10 card that offers similar or better in this case performance. I bought my current card for 269$ and a gtx470 for 280$, I'm selling the 470 because it's way slower and doesn't offer any more pretties unless you're running the heaven bench.


the point I think trt is trying to make that a directx10 gpu that performs the same as a directx 11 gpu but costs less is the better deal right now.

as w1z puts in his reviews

"•DirectX 11 relevance very limited at this time"

and so if you're planning to buy, sure wait and see what's out, if you're buying now, directx11 isn't relevant.
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
7,335 (1.19/day)
Location
C:\Program Files (x86)\Aphexdreamer\
System Name Unknown
Processor AMD Bulldozer FX8320 @ 4.4Ghz
Motherboard Asus Crosshair V
Cooling XSPC Raystorm 750 EX240 for CPU
Memory 8 GB CORSAIR Vengeance Red DDR3 RAM 1922mhz (10-11-9-27)
Video Card(s) XFX R9 290
Storage Samsung SSD 254GB and Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
Display(s) AOC 23" @ 1920x1080 + Asus 27" 1440p
Case HAF X
Audio Device(s) X Fi Titanium 5.1 Surround Sound
Power Supply 750 Watt PP&C Silencer Black
Software Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit
thanks for the pics crazyeyes from what i see, we're a long way off from me getting more image bang for my buck on dx11 vs a cheaper dx10 card that offers similar or better in this case performance. I bought my current card for 269$ and a gtx470 for 280$, I'm selling the 470 because it's way slower and doesn't offer any more pretties unless you're running the heaven bench.


the point I think trt is trying to make that a directx10 gpu that performs the same as a directx 11 gpu but costs less is the better deal right now.

as w1z puts in his reviews

"•DirectX 11 relevance very limited at this time"

and so if you're planning to buy, sure wait and see what's out, if you're buying now, directx11 isn't relevant.

Not if it means its out of date in a couple of months, thats my point. To each their own.
 
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