What headphones is it reasonable to upgrade to?

[Dr. Dro]

You managed to find the most expensive offer on these. They're usually sold for TWO times less. I don't remember what I didn't like in them when I tested them though.

Oh dang! If you didn't like those I bet it was flaky Bluetooth, or maybe too bass heavy. The M50X is like that. I'm guessing there is 0 chance you can find something like a Sony MDR-CD900ST for sale over there, right?

 

[Macro Device]

maybe too bass heavy.

This is definitely the likely case. I'm not the biggest fan of bass.

 

[Dr. Dro]

This is definitely the likely case. I'm not the biggest fan of bass.

Do you prefer a more natural sound? I can recommend the MDR-7506 then. There's the Japanese specialty variants like the CD900ST and V6.

I have a vintage V7 (from 1987) which is a 7506 with amorphous titanium diaphragm and samarium-cobalt magnet drivers, you need to pry it from my cold dead hands. When it breaks I'm gonna buy a 7506 and basically use it for replacement parts.

 

[Macro Device]

Do you prefer a more natural sound? I can recommend the MDR-7506 then. There's the Japanese specialty variants like the CD900ST and V6.

I have a vintage V7 (from 1987) which is a 7506 with amorphous titanium drivers, you ned to pry it from my cold dead hands. When it breaks I'm gonna buy a 7506 and basically use it for replacement parts.

Who's the manufacturer? Sony?

 

[Dr. Dro]

Who's the manufacturer? Sony?

Yeah, all of these I mentioned are Sony studio cans. There's this page worth a look, dude is an enthusiast and owns all models going back to the 80s

Sony Headphone Page

 

[remixedcat]

best ones I've had are beyerdynamic dt770 pro80s and they are awesome for music production!
samples of my work are in the link in my signature. or my youtube

Remixedcat

Experimental Electronica artist that makes music with the game soundtrack vibe of the 90s/00s! Identifies as Synthesexual and loves cats. Hope you love my jamz!

www.youtube.com

I mix and master on those

 

[Macro Device]

for music production!

Well, that requires a bit more than just headphones. One also needs passion, skill (preferrably) and great lawyers...

However, noted. Will test those.

 

[R-T-B]

If you like lighter on the bass, you may find Philips stuff affordable and interesting. SHP9500 if its available, punches way above its cost weight.

 

[remixedcat]

Well, that requires a bit more than just headphones. One also needs passion, skill (preferrably) and great lawyers...

However, noted. Will test those.

I got a lot more than that lol

 

[Macro Device]

SHP9500

Those don't fit my big ears >_<

 

[R-T-B]

Those don't fit my big ears >_<

Ah, my sympathies for headphone shopping.

 

[9087125]

As far as open dynamic headphones go pretty much all modern DAC and AMP in most good devices are actually good enough to drive these headphones. Because firstly the DAC converter chips are all very good now and second, audio in general is so loud that an amp simple isnt needed. My crappy thinkpad T420s with its atrocious soundcard can get my Beyerdynamic 600ohms loud, this is because so much audio is loud-which is bad for dynamics and detail and enjoyment.
To show how far tech has come, I did some detailed comparisons (when my ears were not fatigued) with my senns 600s and 800s, using my 2004 Creative Sound blaster Audigy ZX soundcard vs thinkpad P70 headphone jack vs my ASUS x670e motherboard onboard sound jack vs a 1000USD audiophile dac/amp with xlr.
The creative sound card had a noticeable amount of distortion and was really noticeable when the audio was EQd, the P70 was alot better to the point once my ears were fatigued (usually in just 10-15mins) I literally couldnt tell it apart from the ASUS & dac/amp unit. When my ears were not fatigued the ASUS & dac/amp sounded so close I really couldn't hear any differences.

This was all on a wide range of audio like music, games, movies etc.

As far as cans go, here are some quick highlights of cans I have &/or used:

Senns 800 S: The undisputed king of soundstage and comfort, big cuffs with low clamping force, they are very analytical/critical/revealing yet very neutral and enjoyable. They have for my taste enough low end bass (i tend to hate bass in music & games as its just too much quantity). They sound fantastic when audio is not EQd and more exciting when EQd. Will they make you better at Counter Strike? no, but do they sound more enjoyable than a 150 dollar headset? You bet. These cans do so well at anything you throw at them, games, movies, you name it.
I'm not an audiophile and only use 1-2 headphones and these are all I use really, and if your going to have just one you might aswell have the best, or very high up there. These make good recorded Trance sound like absolute ecstasy. Unfortunately Sennheiser have recently jacked the price up on their headphones so badly its quit sad really. They have a scary set of headphone cables, they take so much force to pull out you run a very real risk and ruining the housing. Crazy! These things sound so good, I actually listen to music alot with them just sitting in front of me or under my desk, yep, its all about conditioning your ears with variation and diversity.

Senn 600: These are very similar to the Senn 800 S, but differ in price and give a more compressed soundstage, they dont have the clarity, bass and upper highs the 800s do, but a more punchy mid range that lacks separation. One of the fundamental headphone problems is the "it sounds like its in my head" issue which is a lack of soundstage and general fatiguing, these cans suffer here alot more than the 800 S. Their clamping force along with small tight ear cuffs makes them uncomfortable for long sessions (45-60mins +). I can tell you the new 600s are noticable worse build quality than the older units.

Sony Z1R: These have a mainstream warm sound that have strong punchy base and are a 'do it all' type. Popular for electronic but I find them awful as they sound to me like muted. They cost so much for a rather warm muted sound. But build quality is high.

Beyerdynamcis: The 880Pro has got to be the most value for money headphone I have ever used, for what is cost and it can easily rival the HD800 S when EQd, their build quality is great and their comfy. The DT1990 Pro is similar but more clarity, base etc. But if on a budget the 880Pro is the ones to get. The Beyers are like Pepsi, and the Senns are like Coke, both sound very similar.

To protect your ears from longterm damage and fatiguing, find the best recorded audio that hasn't been made loud, in general keep volume down after 10-15mins, give your ears good breaks, don't listen to the radio or TV (if you do keep it right down), condition your ears and mind by exposing them to other sounds like fans, aircon, artificial sounds of forests etc with long periods of silence.

 

[Ferather]

Interesting, was the media player set to exclusive WASAPI mode? If not then additional PCM processing was involved, which makes it interesting you couldn't tell the difference between P70 and Asus.
If you want hardware only results, then you need to bypass all processing, this includes both Creative and Realtek, and anything bundled with the Realtek.

If I use exclusive, the audio quality for me is worse than with additional processing, in this case we are talking about 192kbps MP3 and internet radio, where audio is LOST.
It may in some cases be hearing, if you can't hear past 14k and the Asus was better at 14k+, would you notice any difference? The answer is no.

You really need to send a wave and then use proper equipment to see if any of the wave is lost-changed at output.


Also If I test digital out and analogue out, I can get bit-perfect digital so no loss to volume, analogue though needs a pre-amp and amp to get the same volume.
In some cases THD can sound like warmth or colour, or whatever term, but the fact is, its added THD and not the original audio.

If audio was mastered based on headphones A, but user is using headphones B, not the same experience.

 

[Macro Device]

in general keep volume down after 10-15mins, give your ears good breaks, don't listen to the radio or TV (if you do keep it right down), condition your ears and mind by exposing them to other sounds like fans, aircon, artificial sounds of forests etc with long periods of silence.

I leave my headphones home when outside and I'm outside more often than I'm inside. All the issues you described are unknown to me, apparently my ears are nowhere near fatigued. I can handle dozens upon dozens of hours listening to various stuff in my headphones without actually noticing that. Prolly I keep it quiet enough. Hate it when it yells at me.

800S is way beyond my budget, they ask 900+ USD for these in Russia (with about a couple outliers with 500 as an asking price but I don't trust these sellers).
Will take a peek at others though. Thanks.

 

[Ferather]

It would be nice if someone did wave testing with various headphones using the same base hardware, and determined which brand and model was closest to the original (closest to 1:1 lossless).
At least you could add more bass, treble or what not via digital processing rather then rely on certain hardware and certain headphones to get the right sound.

Technically speaking if you master audio to headphones A which has added bass, you essentially made audio with headphones A tuning added.
Headphones tuning is normally to make said headphones sound more normal compared to another set.

 

[photonboy]

AT M40X
I realize your M20X's are apparently too small, but I'll discuss the M40X's anyway to make some points. At some point I spent a long time researching all the audio stuff. Spread out over years:

1) The "40" refers to the DIAMETER of the driver (speaker). Larger drivers can produce more bass. The M20X will have weaker bass. You want 40mm or 50mm speakers.

2) The M40X have a "flat" response meaning they do a great job of representing the audio AS INTENDED across the low, mid and high frequency ranges. Conversely, some headphones are designed to be "punchy" in the bass response. Some people prefer more bass I guess without messing with an equalizer. I use them for both PC and TV so I want them to accurately represent the audio as close as possible. To me, they are pretty much perfect.

3) Missing HIGH frequencies?
That doesn't make sense to me. The M20X should be capable of playing high frequencies. I can only think of two reasons:
a) your hearing is bad, or
b) your AUDIO chip is low quality (frequency separation is poor so you get a "muddled" response from headphones/speakers)

I know you got annoyed about people saying you should get a DAC, and that you did a bunch of testing but my best guess is that the COMPUTER audio is the problem and NOT the headphones for the higher frequencies (the M20X is still weak for lower frequencies).

4) TV BlueTooth... I use the M40X's with my TV, which has no 3.5mm audio jack, using a Bluetooth receiver called the "Auris BluMe HD Music Receiver" and it works really well. I have the audio cable permanently attached to the receiver, then just attach the M40X when I need to watch TV with headphones. Easy.

My LG OLED TV allows me to navigate to the Bluetooth device so the TV itself is still involved. I can't test OTHER TV's but for me this is perfect.

5) NOISY audio?
You mentioned noise. There shouldn't be any caused BY the headphones themselves. I would assume this is coming from the COMPUTER itself. I may have missed this, but do you plug into the FRONT or the REAR of the computer?

FRONT jacks on a PC tend to pick up noise as the wire acts like an antennae and distorts the signal. If you use the FRONT try the REAR instead.

I use expensive Audioengine speakers that have a headphone jack.

*If you are plugging headphones into desktop SPEAKERS then there may be an issue with the SPEAKERS causing noise. The way to test, again, is to plug into the computer directly. So unplug the desktop speakers and plug the headphones into the same, green (likely) output from the computer. Noise gone? Then it was the speakers.

6) IF the front is noisy, but the back is not then you'd want a DAC or perhaps USB headphones (or again, just use desktop speakers). Both of these obviously add to the price. USB headphones obviously have an INTERNAL DAC, so cheaper USB headphones simply have an inexpensive DAC with inferior noise production. "DAC" means Digital-to-Analog, and since USB is just digital data then the headphones need the DAC chip to convert that back into an audio signal for the drivers in the headphones. So you've got a few choices:
a) 3.5mm headphones (front jack or speaker headphone jack)
b) DAC + 3.5mm headphones
c) USB headphones

7) The OHM (impedance) value matters. The M40X won't have an issue, but some headphones are meant for DAC's or PC's with higher impedance. Your headphones OHM rating must match the audio DAC/chip's OHM rating.

Headphone buyers: Here's what you need to know about low- vs. high-impedance models

The Audiophiliac compares low- and high-impedance headphones and explains how they work.

www.cnet.com

Generally, the more EXPENSIVE headphones have higher impedance so I doubt this will be an issue for you, but something to be aware of.

SUMMARY/TLDR:
1) plug HEADPHONES into the REAR of the computer to see if static/noise goes away
2) headphone size? I can't help with that.
3) M40X are great headphones with a FLAT frequency response (no exagerrated frequencies)

*I generally recommend 3.5mm headphones so you can plug into desktop speakers OR a separate DAC. My speakers have a DAC, but my new motherboard had the same audio quality so I don't use it. For VALUE I think the ideal solution is half decent DESKTOP speakers with a 3.5mm audio jack on them. Which you probably have already.

**First step is to explain what you mean by "noisy" (static?) and see if you can find the cause.

 

[Macro Device]

The M20X will have weaker bass. You want 40mm or 50mm speakers.

I never stated I want more bass. I'm more than happy with my current bass situation.

Missing HIGH frequencies?

Actually, mid-high and just mid. Really high frequencies are in fact okay. Most likely not a technical but rather a music taste issue.

your hearing is bad

This is a known fact but my hearing is enough for me to miss mid-highs after using more high-oriented stuff.

You mentioned noise.

I mentioned I don't want it but I didn't say I have it. This is currently an "I don't wanna be a fool" kinda request. I always plug my audio in the rear ports.

Generally, the more EXPENSIVE headphones have higher impedance so I doubt this will be an issue for you, but something to be aware of.

I don't mind that. If I end up having my PC audio as a clear and blatant bottleneck then I purchase a decent DAC.

The reason behind not wanting M40X much is I wanna test something made by a manufacturer I never used products thereof.

 

[Ferather]

@photonboy, there is also the PowerDAC, with no DAC, instead PWM to power equivalent conversion (power stage). I have read with PWM the D/A converter can be the speaker its self in cases.

I also remembered a site: AutoEq, which has tuning for lots of headphones, no app though, just the tuning file. You have to install a compatible app.
There are also other PCM processing options such as Boom3D. All before your hardware, and I bet with either one you notice.

Far too much variation for me, I am a True Sound hardware type.

 

[photonboy]

1) "less noise"
Alright. You said "what I want to be better" and then said "less noise" so naturally I assumed you had noise. Silly me. And right before that you said your headphones "miss a good half of what's going on" and now state that it's probably just your preference in music.

Very confusing. We'll move on.

2) Beyerdynamic, Sennheiser and Sony are a good start to look at.

3) The ALC897 are basically mid-range. They are "okay" but won't have great separation between frequencies. That leads to slightly muddled audio. If you listen to a good audio solution then go back to those it would be obvious.

ALC897 + value headphones is perfectly fine.
ALC897 + expensive headphones is wasting money on headphones.
Cheap headphones + an expensive DAC is also a bad choice.

Anything up to around $100USD (18,000 rubles?) or so I'd stick with the ALC897 solution. Going above that (you state 40,000 maximum), I'll have to see what's available for DAC's but maybe 15,000 to 25,000 for the headphones and roughly the same for a DAC. Optionally, USB headphones with a built-in DAC.

I'm typing this out and will check prices.

4) POWERDAC
Interesting product, but it's designed for MOBILE devices. It doesn't even have a volume knob.

"I have read with PWM the D/A converter can be the speaker its self in cases."
?? No. Basic drivers just take a varying voltage signal that drives the electro-magnet that moves a diaphram which in turn pushes air. If a speaker COULD take in a digital signal it would have a DAC built in (like USB headphones). The POWERDAC itself is still a DAC. It just works internally different from traditional DACs.

5) Headphones at "DNS" that may be worth looking into:
(some models have DIFFERENT ohm versions so verify your Motherboard or DAC rating)
- Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 32 Ohm (24,199)
- Audio Technica ATH-AD500X (apparently very comfortable and larger than other headphones. are "open back" which some feel sound slightly better, but OTHER people will hear some of the sound if that matters to you)

*Only listing those because it's very DIFFICULT for me to navigate those website stores even with Google translate.

6) DAC
Very quickly, I tried to see what was available. THIS one seems a good value at "9,355 rubles":
"iFi Zen Air DAC"
(listed at "ozon" but link was too long to copy)

ZEN Air DAC

High-performance audio, even more accessible. The ZEN Air DAC brings iFi’s renowned sound to all, delivering the same rich musicality from the legendary Burr Brown chip found in our award-winning ZEN DAC series.

ifi-audio.com

Review: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ifi-audio-zen-air-dac.26079/
"The sound produced by the ZEN Air DAC was high-quality, detailed, clear and clean -- free from of any noise or distortion. The delivery was smooth and dynamic, making for an enjoyable listening experience for hours on end."

- 6.3mm (so need a 3.5 to 6.3mm adapter)
- different "iFi Zen" models had a single USB Type-C connector for both power AND audio so double-check the connections

Summary:
From what I can tell, maybe a DAC similar to the one I mentioned plus headphones no more than roughly 25,000 rubles. With tax your total shouldn't exceed 40,000.

I recommend buying the DAC first (along with a 6.3mm adapter if you need one). If you notice the AUDIO QUALITY is NOT much better then maybe you'll have a hard time benefiting from good headphones. You SHOULD see a noticeable difference even with the cheaper M20X headphones.

FINAL point... to complicate all of this, when you get new headphones your BRAIN needs time to adapt. You have a BIAS towards your existing headphones so NEWER headphones don't tend to sound as good as they will later. This applies to better sound with a DAC as well.

If you use for a while, maybe a week or more, then go back to your ORIGINAL setup the difference should be more obvious. The OLD setup should now sound more obviously worse. (It's a real problem for audio reviewers who aren't aware that this happens).

Good luck!

 

[Ferather]

@photonboy, If you were to use PWM on a speaker....... (checkout answer 2 of 5, by Ian Quayle).
Image 3 is a digital input speaker, you would test input vs output wave for true sound.

 

[photonboy]

Ferather,
I assumed you were discussing the topic at hand. The symantics of whether it's still a digital signal or not after being extensively altered with PWM circuitry is irrelevant to helping this guy pick parts for his computer. By "digital" signal I was referring to the data sent from the computer to the DAC, not the signal at the end of the POWERDAC processing pipeline that gets smoothed out into an analog signal. At the end of the day you still just buy an off-the-shelf DAC to plug into your speakers or headphones.

You were talking about something else. That's fine.

 

[Ferather]

Its mostly a reaction to some of the suggestions here, which are so far mostly personal preference over a proper standard. The biggest problem is there is no established standard.
Brands and manufacturers ultimately can do what they want in terms of quality and analogue sound signature, you have to pick out of [x] possible outcomes.

You yourself are guilty of suggesting another DAC, because of the above (not to sound rude).

I can pick out £200 sound cards, and roughly 90%+ of that price is analogue parts (with signature), SPDIF wont change much from one device to another.
In this case I do use SPDIF, and in RAW mode the £200 sound card would be no different to my onboard S1220A, no signature.

DAC's and analogue amps aside, both headphone and speaker manufacturers can still test their units for 'true sound', regardless of signature.
You can imagine the added signature of the DAC and amp was already in the audio, so the speakers would still be 'true sound'.

 

[ShiBDiB]

If they don't need to be wireless I'd go with a set of IEM's with a decently long cord. I switched to https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B7DS1QHZ?psc=1 and a standalone hyperx duocast mic from a steelseries pro and I should have done this years ago.

Over the ear muffs suck imo, they get hot, they hurt your ears, you get the indent in your hair/head. These cheap IEM's sound better in every respect (and I can still use my steelseries software with them).

I also grabbed a Razer Leviathan for when I just want some basic speaker action.

 

[photonboy]

ATH-AD500x reviews:

These headphones work well with LARGER HEADS. I'm NOT saying they are overall the best headphones but it's hard to tell how headphones fit over the Internet. Since size is a concern, and several videos have said the cups are larger and that they fit comfortably on larger heads, I thought I'd link this.

The first video talks about the cable being too thick and being annoying. So part of this is showing things to look out for. Although the cable can probably be straightened out no problem.

Ferather,
(this is supposed to be a separate post. the site keeps putting it back with the above post.)
I want on the LINKS provided by the person we're trying to help to see what DAC's are actually available. I narrowed it down to the appropriate price range. I then compared them to see what made the most sense for his use case.

I read reviews. There weren't many products to choose from. Some were overkill for his use case. Some were cheap with inferior sound. I picked something I thought was a good value with great sound.

I'm not sure what I'm "guilty" of (if you mean me) but I'm just trying to make suggestions for products HE can buy.

 

[Mister300]

Hope this helps I am a retired professional chemist with a specialty in analytical instrumentation and have a relative in the recording industry. I have knowledge of the consumer and pro side of audio. I have been noticing a lot of posts about speaker and equipment recommendations etc.

Planars are ruthless revealing cans so I am not surprised that the apparent sound quality drops with increasing priced gear. Law of diminishing returns here. Like I would not play any highly compressed rock recording on a pair of Maggies speakers either. What I would do is go to a high end dealer and listen to your cans on a price no object system and see if the apparent audio is worth the money, use your recordings not what the dealer plays for a demo. Any disappointment is the fault of the source not your auditory acumen
What to listen for on a reed instrument do you hear the felt pads sticking, reed buzz or finger nails clicking on keys? When you listen to piano do you hear the action or pedal noise, nails clicking on keys can you tell if lid is open or partially closed? On electric guitar do you hear strings hitting the frets?
Pull up some Iron Maiden and listen to the Fender Precision Jazz bass Harris shreds. Should hear nail clicking depending on what style the bassist plays.

Do not get to caught up in the specs or being a "measurebator" audio is very subjective and personal. Must listen to speakers/headphones and base purchase on your personal taste, all are voiced differently so I do not recommend one brand of speaker over another, feelings can be hurt depending on how critique is taken. For example, I was at a high-end dealer (Early 1990) when they were showcasing a Wilson WAMM setup valued at 100K. The customer pulls out a personal recording of an oboe and a bassoon solo that he performed. After listening he says I am done with the Wilsons, why was he not satisfied? It wasn’t the 100K sticker shock, it was the fact that the system couldn’t resolve a A440 hertz note properly. To the untrained ear they sound identical but have a slight timbre difference that is noticeable to a professional Oboe/Bassoon performer. He also would dump a speaker if it couldn’t resolve a piano recording with the lid up or closed. FYI, he settled with the B&W Nautilus at 30K, I believe.

If you want to really spoil yourself find a Nagra dealer and plug your cans in!

Nagra Model I

The Nagra Model I monitoring headphones offer a very wide bandwidth, super acurate timbre, with 3D Images.

www.nagraaudio.com

Nagra VII Anniversary - Nagra

The Nagra VII Anniversary Edition is the celebration of the very first Nagra! Electronically identical to a Nagra SEVEN, its front panel and all the buttons are made of aluminum, including the potentiometer, a testimony to the legendary Nagra IV-S.

www.nagraaudio.com