what/which is a really big pc case?

[MxPhenom 216]

Well IMO thermal paste is thermal paste. The difference between them in terms of how much they drop your temps is quite small. A better cooler will obviously make a much bigger difference then some TIM.

 

[Vario]

you gotta get yourself some x23 heh

 

[Shambles1980]

Well IMO thermal paste is thermal paste. The difference between them in terms of how much they drop your temps is quite small. A better cooler will obviously make a much bigger difference then some TIM.

id love to agree, but if that was true you wouldn't use mx-4 you would just buy a 30g tub of that generic gloop i use for testing..

thermal paste does make a difference, correct application also makes a difference. whether we are talking 5c difference between tooth paste and the generic gray gloop or 5c between that and mx-4 or 5c between mx4 and xtreme it is a difference. also if we factor in possible ~2c differences due to application methods, an added bonus with xtreme is the application, theres only 1 way to do it. and then its done perfectly. but if it can bond permenantly then il probably just use the x23 or mx4

 

[MxPhenom 216]

id love to agree, but if that was true you wouldn't use mx-4 you would just buy a 30g tub of that generic gloop i use for testing..

thermal paste does make a difference, correct application also makes a difference. whether we are talking 5c difference between tooth paste and the generic gray gloop or 5c between that and mx-4 or 5c between mx4 and xtreme it is a difference. also if we factor in possible ~2c differences due to application methods, an added bonus with xtreme is the application, theres only 1 way to do it. and then its done perfectly. but if it can bond permenantly then il probably just use the x23 or mx4

Sure theres a difference between TIM. I never said there wasn't any at all. Its just small. A better cooler will make a bigger difference.

I know for a fact if I did reviews and needed a ton of TIM I would for sure get a massive tube of say Arctic Cooling Ceramique or something, but I don't so I use what I either have or have used before, and right now I have MX-4. Mainly because its easy to apply, spreads well, and non conductive.

 

[Shambles1980]

when your talking overclocking and getting the most out of your cpu those few degrees do make a difference.
my x23 arrived. and i swear its fake. it should come with a red cap but its black.
i tried to apply it. and it simply came out way to easy.
I told the seller who is sending me a replacment and issuing a refund.
They get them in bulk apparently and only very rarely do they get a complaint.. they also say they supply lots of pc repair shops who praise it.
If the next one arrives and looks fake i will just use mx-4 again.

(i just looked at that list i posted and mx-4 is stated to be better than x23 in that graph. i need to point out that that graph is out of a bunch of tests with different mount pressures and stuff. mx4 performed better over the course of the test but under correct application and usage the x23 was better, in case you dont want to check the actual link)

 

[crazyeyesreaper]

In over 30 CPU cooler reviews and 10 different TIMs that have crossed my desk the only one that made a huge difference was IC Diamond and it only made a difference with one cooler due to mounting pressure IHS curvature / curvature of the heatsinks base etc. In most other tests the difference between the Ceramique I use for testing vs Noctua NH-H1 / Prolimatech Pk-1 and MX-4 among others the difference has been with proper application within 1-2'C which depending on the day / humidity / ambient temp = within Margin of error.

Overall half the shit your doing doesn't even matter.

 

[Shambles1980]

most reviews say the same about thermal paste in general. but i cant find one that doesnt say indego xtreme is a lot better than your general paste.
it is a phase change alloy though so i guess technically cant be called thermal paste. you also have to run it at hot temps "turn off your fans/pump" then run prime or something to get it to 100% load and let it throttle itself down a couple of times. then close prime and let it slowly cool down at idle "still with all cooling off" then when the temps stabilize. turn the pc off and leave it to cool passivly for atleast 30 minuets so its as cool as its going to get.
that process melts the alloy which flows to fill in all microscopic flaws and create a perfect surface between your block/heatsink. The slow passive cool down phase helps ensure that it cools down evenly and as 1 mass rathere than some parts cooling faster creating fissures. thats as close to direct contact between the ihs and block as we can really get these days. so its hard to argue that it wont make a difference IF DONE PROPERLY.
like i said i cant find a single review that dosent say that it is in a league of its own when used properly.

 

[crazyeyesreaper]

And yet in the end compared to a high end paste applied correctly its not going to offer a change big enough to increase overclocking headroom etc

If your on Intel and using Ivy / Haswell etc you will hit the chips max OC before you hit max temps with traditional cooling and tim "most of the time" Their are exceptions but still my 4770K does 4.8 if i push it and temps are still below throttle point using dirt cheap Ceramique paste and an NH-D15. Didn't need $20 kit that gets 2 applications only to do it.

There is always gains to be made but you end up passing the point where it becomes economical and in the end just becomes down right stupid.

From what I have seen for Indigo Extreme if you do a proper mount it might be 1'C Better than the best pastes on the market. It beats the Ceramique dirt cheap paste by less than 2'C according to Skinnelabs on a good mount meaning its fucking pointless.


Ceramique 2 = $5 to get around 10 applications or so 2 applications per $1
Indigo Extreme = $20 to get 2 applications = $10 per application for a 1-2'C difference
Yea... not worth it and that test was on a CPU that doesn't use TIM under the IHS. As such when used on something like Haswell or Ivy-Bridge its even more of a waste due to inherent inefficiency of the TIM under the IHS.

Let us also not forget that depending on a CPU coolers mounting system Indigo Xtreme may not spread properly or at all as some users have noticed with Coolers like Thermalrights Silver Arrow

So yea 4x the cost for 1.2'C Drop

 

[Shambles1980]

its still better though lol.
and a few c is a difference. in my particular situation i could argue that in every day use or even under regular stress tests that i really dont need a good tim.
but i could also argue that really i dont need a good cpu cooler either. i did have a very good heat sink and fan. and now i have a middle of the road aio which dropped temps a bit. but all the little things add up to give you that bit extra.
technically i could over clock farther with what i already have but i dont feel comfortable doing that whilst it is within a few c of downclocking due to temps under IBT at max.
1-2c here and there will add up and allow me to push things further.
most reviews seem to state that the avarage temp diference between xtreme and other tim's is in the range of 2-5c with better diferences being noted with cpu's that create higer heat.

if we are talking 2-5c for what effectively is £15 for 2 applications i really dont see that as being so expensive.
I could get 12g of mx-4 for about the same price. but honestly id only want to apply xtreme 1ce so i dont see it as something that is expensive. 12g of mx-4 would last me a very long time. but then i may as well argue i can get 30g of generic gloop for £2.99 so why pay atleast 8x more for mx4. by your argument i would be stupid to buy mx4..

i will concede that Alot of heat sinks cant be used with it. and they state that on the web page. so its not really an issue. we know that they have to have a solid base, so you cant use direct contact heat pipes. and you cant use water blocks with screws in the base.
if your spending a lot on your system to over clock i dont see the price of indego as expensive, and i am really cheap.

 

[Devon68]

After 4 pages of discussion are you any closer to the case you are looking for?

 

[Shambles1980]

i would get the pc-d600 for a full custom setup like i thought i would need these days. http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-d600/
http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-d600/

but the posters were right and water cooling is much more efficient than it used to be and this tiny little aio perfroms very well so i dont believe i will need a new case now.

if in the future i decide to get a epic water cooling system i will be looking for a pc-d600 as it would allow me to set up the loop i would want to make. i will probably save up to get it and the components to make the loop that i want. But it will be over kill with the efficency of todays liquid cooling systems, but i guess when it comes to cooling, if its worth doing its worth over doing.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

In over 30 CPU cooler reviews and 10 different TIMs that have crossed my desk the only one that made a huge difference was IC Diamond and it only made a difference with one cooler due to mounting pressure IHS curvature / curvature of the heatsinks base etc. In most other tests the difference between the Ceramique I use for testing vs Noctua NH-H1 / Prolimatech Pk-1 and MX-4 among others the difference has been with proper application within 1-2'C which depending on the day / humidity / ambient temp = within Margin of error.

Overall half the shit your doing doesn't even matter.

What I have been trying to say this whole time..................

i would get the pc-d600 for a full custom setup like i thought i would need these days.
http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-d600/

but the posters were right and water cooling is much more efficient than it used to be and this tiny little aio perfroms very well so i dont believe i will need a new case now.

if in the future i decide to get a epic water cooling system i will be looking for a pc-d600 as it would allow me to set up the loop i would want to make. i will probably save up to get it and the components to make the loop that i want. But it will be over kill with the efficency of todays liquid cooling systems, but i guess when it comes to cooling, if its worth doing its worth over doing.

Yet, you got like one of the worst AIO kits you could. Well done!

 

[crazyeyesreaper]

its still better though lol.
and a few c is a difference. in my particular situation i could argue that in every day use or even under regular stress tests that i really dont need a good tim.
but i could also argue that really i dont need a good cpu cooler either. i did have a very good heat sink and fan. and now i have a middle of the road aio which dropped temps a bit. but all the little things add up to give you that bit extra.
technically i could over clock farther with what i already have but i dont feel comfortable doing that whilst it is within a few c of downclocking due to temps under IBT at max.
1-2c here and there will add up and allow me to push things further.
most reviews seem to state that the avarage temp diference between xtreme and other tim's is in the range of 2-5c with better diferences being noted with cpu's that create higer heat.

if we are talking 2-5c for what effectively is £15 for 2 applications i really dont see that as being so expensive.
I could get 12g of mx-4 for about the same price. but honestly id only want to apply xtreme 1ce so i dont see it as something that is expensive. 12g of mx-4 would last me a very long time. but then i may as well argue i can get 30g of generic gloop for £2.99 so why pay atleast 8x more for mx4. by your argument i would be stupid to buy mx4..

i will concede that Alot of heat sinks cant be used with it. and they state that on the web page. so its not really an issue. we know that they have to have a solid base, so you cant use direct contact heat pipes. and you cant use water blocks with screws in the base.
if your spending a lot on your system to over clock i dont see the price of indego as expensive, and i am really cheap.

Heres the kicker, that 1-2C wont fucking matter, soon as your ambient temps go up 1-2c you are right back where you started. Most people do not maintain a constant temperature in their homes. So in retrospect. that 1.2'C change gives you an extra month before having to clean your system to maintain awesome temps or a 1'C leeway in ambient temps. You can do what you like but when it comes time to dissassemble the system and clean it you will most likely have to uninstall the AIO to clean it completely. This = reapply paste if your home has carpets etc and your system is on the floor be prepared for extreme dust build up on the fans and radiator. I encountered this issue alot when i had my Thermaltake Water 2.0 PRO. to get it good and clean and get temps back to where they should be required a full cleaning. Also if you want to bring price into the equation. The cheap paste that is supplied - free thus $20 saved. Over the generic included paste you are paying $20 for a 1.2'C drop vs the cheapest stuff available. I can make the argument that spending $10 on a better cooler will give a better return on Temps than your $20 purchase of TIM.

I mean hell I could take a CRYORIG R1 Universal slap a third 140 x 13 mm fan on it for three fans. For the SAME PRICE as the TD03 and beat it temp wise while being much quieter.

At max performance the TD03 will hit around 60 dBA while the CRYORIG hits 45. and beats it temp wise on Haswell by 5-6'C give or take. This means I could spend less beat your AIO in cooling performance and by a margin large enough that the TIM can't make up for it. With the likes of a 2600K the R1 with three fans would offer perfect memory compatibility like the AIO and beat it by 3'C which is still double the temp drop compared to TIM choice.

So in summation the $20 on TIM could have paid for better cooling that would have dropped temps further.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

So in summation the $20 on TIM could have paid for better cooling that would have dropped temps further.

Exactly what I was saying before. Better cooling will make a much bigger difference then some TIM.

 

[Shambles1980]

Heres the kicker, that 1-2C wont fucking matter, soon as your ambient temps go up 1-2c you are right back where you started. Most people do not maintain a constant temperature in their homes. So in retrospect. that 1.2'C change gives you an extra month before having to clean your system to maintain awesome temps or a 1'C leeway in ambient temps. You can do what you like but when it comes time to dissassemble the system and clean it you will most likely have to uninstall the AIO to clean it completely. This = reapply paste if your home has carpets etc and your system is on the floor be prepared for extreme dust build up on the fans and radiator. I encountered this issue alot when i had my Thermaltake Water 2.0 PRO. to get it good and clean and get temps back to where they should be required a full cleaning. Also if you want to bring price into the equation. The cheap paste that is supplied - free thus $20 saved. Over the generic included paste you are paying $20 for a 1.2'C drop vs the cheapest stuff available. I can make the argument that spending $10 on a better cooler will give a better return on Temps than your $20 purchase of TIM.

I mean hell I could take a CRYORIG R1 Universal slap a third 140 x 13 mm fan on it for three fans. For the SAME PRICE as the TD03 and beat it temp wise while being much quieter.

At max performance the TD03 will hit around 60 dBA while the CRYORIG hits 45. and beats it temp wise on Haswell by 5-6'C give or take. This means I could spend less beat your AIO in cooling performance and by a margin large enough that the TIM can't make up for it. With the likes of a 2600K the R1 with three fans would offer perfect memory compatibility like the AIO and beat it by 3'C which is still double the temp drop compared to TIM choice.

So in summation the $20 on TIM could have paid for better cooling that would have dropped temps further.

£116 is not $20 more... its more like £60 more which is $102 more without an extra fan..
I dont know why you people keep pulling prices out of your wazzoos..

did a bit more research here. and for $20 more all i could get is a h90. and thats worse than what i bought according to reviews. or as for air cooling i could get a zalman cnps12x which again is 4c worse for a bit more money with no scope to improve...

 

[crazyeyesreaper]

THen you live in a shitty location

The SIlverstone TD03 = $90+ add in the retarded Tim thats $110
R1 Universal is $90 + fan is $10 some parts of the world have a promo going on with third fan being free

so $100 vs $110 state side.

Other liquid coolers like the Thermaltake Water 3.0 PRO = $6-10 cheaper than the TD03

Air coolers like Noctua's NH-D14 which is still a solid performer is around $78

It does come down to location in the world. However regardless you make 180' decisions and flip flop and spend money in the wrong places. But hey its your money do with it what you want

 

[Shambles1980]

cheapest i can find that cooler here is £116.
which is near enough twice the price. also to refer to some ones country as shitty seems a bit excessive when discussing computers and components wouldn't you say?

edit.

at the price i paid the performance is pretty good i think. if i had a case that could hold a bigger radiator then obviously i would have done it differently. If i had the money to throw at a new case and the cooling system i wanted then i would have. (im sure then you would say i over spent for excessive cooling that i don't need though)

but i still think that this atleast has scope for modifying, i understand none of you think thats a good idea but its something i will enjoy doing when i get round to it.
i can get a bay and pump for pretty low amounts of money and just modify it a bit. like i said i already have a 120mm rad from my old tk big water. i can easily mount a 120 at the front of my case and work like that.
I know people will say "why mod when you can just pay 4x more money to get it done right in the start" but i really dont comprehend that mentality much lol.
where is the fun in it..
thats a bit like throwing money at some one so they build you a system oc it for you set up with the best components and then you just use it..
thats no fun is it..

 

[crazyeyesreaper]

Not really there are parts of the world that truly are shitty to live in where part selection is atrocious and prices are extreme with little to no inventory etc. Truth hurts.

Also when making threads telling people where your from where you can purchase from is more likely to get you positive feedback that fits your needs. And gets you the answers you seek. But so far each thread you have made meanders through a decision that never gets made then you do 180 spin and do something else entirely.

 

[Shambles1980]

yeah im a hard ware butterfly.

 

[crazyeyesreaper]

Sarcasm for the win

 

[Shambles1980]

lol its a true story though. i know what i want and i know what i can affoard, i do try and get what i want but will usually have to settle for what i can affoard and then just make it work.
also i cant really save money. if i have money spare the wife will find something to spend it on.. "point in case last night i was allowed to take her out for a meal."

any way i decided to fiddle a bit more in the bios i set vdrop to max (power saving) and then used an offset of 0.0500 to get me back to my 1.35 target as a max draw. (when i had vdroop low (max performance) i noticed it would touch on 1.4 rearly but it did it.
this slight tweak in the bios has seemed to help. but i also applied the new x23 that arrived today (i told the guy i thought the 1st one was a fake so he sent me a free replacment) i guess i should have checked one variable at a time because now i cant be sure of what made the difference..

regardless IBT is now able to run without getting to 80c. and for 90% of the run fan speeds stay at ~75%
I set the warning temps at 73c for all cores and my usuall fan speeds vary acording to temps on core 1.
This is supposed to have it so if any core hits 73c then the fans all go to 100% but it seems they only go to 100% if core 1 hits 73c. So that will need tweaking too.

think i have it almost good right now.
i may get higher pressure fans for the rad. although i think i will benefit more if i cut the back of the case open a bit and just use a fan guard so the 120mm fan for the radiator is not as restricted by the case as it is now.

right now the temps in IBT are about 12c lower that i can tell (i cant be sure because it would clock down before due to temps. but my target for this oc has been achieved.
It is also ALOT quieter than the xigmatek aiger i had on it in push pull.

here is a screen dump i took during a IBT run "sys fans are the cpu fans. cpu is the pump. aux are the side fans. my other fans run off of molex"
the temp in this room is 23c

a few more tweaks to the case, possibly higher pressure fans and i should be able to get this setup really pretty silent, and im quite happy because its really pretty warm for this country so the temps can only really get alot better or a tiny bit worse due to ambient.

 

[Shambles1980]

it will be a huge surprise to every one to hear that i went against your advice, and went ahead and added the 120mm radiator i had from my old big water custom loop.(used my xigamtec 120mm fan for that as it has good cfm and static pressure. (the thermal take rad needs a lot of stattic pressure)
i also added a 2 bay reservoir and a small 12v 6l/h pump to my aio. took a while to prime it all the secnod 120 rad did not want to fill up so i had to manually prime/bleed it once i did that it all went well.

now im running IBT maximum and get to 63c max fans stay at 30% so its a lot better now.
finally happy with it, and because i went with 2 separate 120's i managed to shoe horn it all in to this ancient case of mine.

quite inexpensive really compared to a real custom loop although i wouldn't really call this an aio any more. i think the cutting up of the tubes adding more. + cable ties and "better safe than sorry" sealant has voided my 5 year warranty.
but its not something im bothered about, because if it had broke id have just one this to it any way.

really would prefer to get a nice big case and a proper custom loop. but cheap and cheerfull is good.

I may add it to the ghetto mods thread some time. but for now its just finished.

 

[Vario]

it will be a huge surprise to every one to hear that i went against your advice

sarcasm? lol

glad it worked for you, good temps. I just run my fans at a fixed speed (30% from the bottom on the fan controller dial) all the time.

 

[MikeMurphy]

Best place to get cases are you local computer recycling center. It's usually pretty easy to find a large server tower for $5.

Any case with a manual "Turbo" button will give you additional street cred.