nguyenNah my good binned 3090 can out perform most 3090Ti overclocked vs overclocked.

You seem to make up facts, 3090Ti was release 1.5 years after 3090. Meanwhile AMD released 3 revisions of 6900XT (6900XT LC with 18Gbps VRAM, 6900XTXH and then 6950XT) a few months apart.

There's a difference between trying to make your final product better to counteract the competition, and holding your best product back to sell it at a higher price later. You can argue that binned Navi 21 chips were also held back to be used later, but 1. we don't know that, although we know that full GA102 chips were not part of the initial launch, and 2. with a bit of luck, you can achieve those clocks on any 6900 XT.

bugMy "message" to Nvidia (and AMD) is simply me holding on to my GTX 1060. They don't care, I go about my business as well.

That's part of the problem though. That GPU won't last forever, and at some point you'll then be forced to either buy a new one or quit gaming, which again forces you into making choices largely determined by these corporations. Even if your choice is that you've stopped gaming as much and can't be bothered, even that choice has been influenced by the fact that you've been put in a certain position relative to GPU makers. No choice is made in a vacuum. All the while, your "message" is as passive of a message as is possible, and as you say, they don't care - in large part because they literally can't hear it. If we want them to actually keep the things they make accessible, then we need to not be that passive, because we're seeing that if left alone, they'll screw us all over. And why on earth would we want to let them keep going in that direction? And if your objection to that is "well, it doesn't matter that much to me", then why are you wasting your time complaining about the actions of people for whom it does matter? "I don't think you should be complaining about this thing because it isn't that important to me" is not a logically sound stance.

bugCan't say I'm crazy about buying overpriced stuff myself.

But discussing a company's image is an exercise in futility, imho. Everyone has their own image of what a company is or isn't and that image is almost always subjective.

My "message" to Nvidia (and AMD) is simply me holding on to my GTX 1060. They don't care, I go about my business as well.

That I can agree with. :) We're lucky that we don't need to buy such overpriced stuff every generation nowadays.

Ok, now you're not even making sense anymore.

ValantarYes, companies need buffers to keep running (though for large businesses those buffers are typically loans based on projected revenues rather than cash on hand). But it feels like you're taking that point and running too far with it, ignoring surrounding factors. We know Nvidia is limiting RTX 3000 supplies to keep prices high.

I don't know that, but let's supposed that's true.

ValantarWhy can't AMD flood the market to counteract that? Because they literally don't have the production capacity to match Nvidia's ~4x sales advantage,

You need production capacity to counter sales capacity? If Nvidia is limiting supply, there should be unused fab capacity that AMD can use. Irl, Nvidia isn't limiting anything, the fab capacity is simply not there (more accurate, it's there, but it's contested by a lot more than GPU builders).

Valantarand Nvidia has a massive mindshare advantage, where for most buyers GPU=Nvidia, period.

Mindshare? Everywhere you turn on the Internet, it's all "Love AMD, hate Nvidia/Intel".

ValantarSo yes, there are definitely things stopping AMD from flooding the market with their own cheap GPUs. Of course, another factor stopping AMD from doing this is that they themselves are working under the same ideology, wanting to maximize profits above all else, and as with most tech companies these days their focus is on ASPs, not volume. Why? 'Cause it's always cheaper (and thus more profitable) to sell fewer products more expensively than more products cheaply, just because of the realities of manufacturing and distribution.

Like I pointed out above, AMD did sell for cheap and it didn't end well for them. They've learned their lesson and are now doing business the more sustainable way.


Stop looking for differences where there are none - we have two GPU makers, both operating in the same market, under the same principles. Don't like their products or prices? Don't buy. Read a book, go outside, play a mobile game... the possibilities are endless.

AusWolfThere's a difference between trying to make your final product better to counteract the competition, and holding your best product back to sell it at a higher price later. You can argue that binned Navi 21 chips were also held back to be used later, but 1. we don't know that, although we know that full GA102 chips were not part of the initial launch, and 2. with a bit of luck, you can achieve those clocks on any 6900 XT.

You claimed Nvidia released a faster SKU 6 months later, which they didn't.

AMD actually released 3 revisions of 6900XT, each maybe 6 months apart, and it was fine to you.

Looks like your opinions are rather very biased

ValantarThat's part of the problem though. That GPU won't last forever, and at some point you'll then be forced to either buy a new one or quit gaming, which again forces you into making choices largely determined by these corporations. Even if your choice is that you've stopped gaming as much and can't be bothered, even that choice has been influenced by the fact that you've been put in a certain position relative to GPU makers. No choice is made in a vacuum. All the while, your "message" is as passive of a message as is possible, and as you say, they don't care - in large part because they literally can't hear it. If we want them to actually keep the things they make accessible, then we need to not be that passive, because we're seeing that if left alone, they'll screw us all over. And why on earth would we want to let them keep going in that direction? And if your objection to that is "well, it doesn't matter that much to me", then why are you wasting your time complaining about the actions of people for whom it does matter? "I don't think you should be complaining about this thing because it isn't that important to me" is not a logically sound stance.

I think the sensible choice nowadays is to buy what one needs. If you're OK with a 1060, keep the 1060. If you need a 1080p or 1440p card, a 6600 (XT) is a great choice. If you need more, look around and decide with your wallet, not with the hype around you.

I know, I'm guilty as charged, as I had no need to swap my 2070 for a 6750 XT, but I was curious. I also bought a 6500 XT out of curiosity and I was quite happy with it. I honestly don't know why people hate this card. A lot of our needs aren't actually needs - we just believe what we're being told. We believe that we need 144 Hz, that we need raytracing, that DLSS makes things better (even though we know it doesn't). I still remember the days when we played Doom 95 on a 14" CRT monitor at 30 FPS, and we had fun... fun that we're not necessarily having nowadays because we're too focused on FPS numbers and benchmarks instead of enjoying the game. I haven't been as excited as I was when I managed to run Half-Life on my Pentium 2 with software rendering (I didn't have a 3D card at that time). Nowadays, we're shoveling money into rich pockets and expect stuff to just work with no excitement. How did we get here? When did we first sit on the hype train to want the best of the best instead of just having fun with what we have?

Oops, sorry for the off. :D

nguyenYou claimed Nvidia released a faster SKU 6 months later, which they didn't.

AMD actually released 3 revisions of 6900XT, each maybe 6 months apart, and it was fine to you.

Looks like your opinions are rather very biased

Your on your sixth page of arguing that your precious 3090 and Nvidia are doing better things then AMD and you think he's biased.


OP No contest, because there's no contest, AMD hasn't yet released their kraken, I await reviews.

nguyenYou claimed Nvidia released a faster SKU 6 months later, which they didn't.

AMD actually released 3 revisions of 6900XT, each maybe 6 months apart, and it was fine to you.

Yes, revisions... of the same chip. Nvidia deliberately held back the fully enabled chips to be used for more expensive products later.

The 3090 Ti isn't a revised version of the 3090 - it's a totally different product. Yet, that didn't stop Nvidia from marketing the 3090 as the best of the best, even though they were deliberately planning on releasing something better later. That's not a revision. That's planning. You may not feel it in the final product, but you feel it in the communication towards you, the customer.

As an analogy, when you walk into a grocery store, you don't only pay for potatoes - you also pay for the service. The cashier smiling at you may not increase the value of your bag of potatoes, but it does affect your shopping experience.

AusWolfYes, revisions... of the same chip. Nvidia deliberately held back the fully enabled chips to be used for more expensive products later.

The 3090 Ti isn't a revised version of the 3090 - it's a totally different product. Yet, that didn't stop Nvidia from marketing the 3090 as the best of the best, even though they were deliberately planning on releasing something better later. That's not a revision. That's planning. You may not feel it in the final product, but you feel it in the communication towards you, the customer.

As an analogy, when you walk into a grocery store, you don't only pay for potatoes - you also pay for the service. The cashier smiling at you may not increase the value of your bag of potatoes, but it does affect your shopping experience.

Surely make faster revision every 6 months make previous revision owners feel better about themselves :roll: /s.

Oh well, I don't think your opinion hold any value to others, much less to these multi billions dollars company, have fun giving your opinions though. Actual enthusiasts will buy the best performing products, not the one with the best specs.

ValantarThat's part of the problem though. That GPU won't last forever, and at some point you'll then be forced to either buy a new one or quit gaming, which again forces you into making choices largely determined by these corporations.

Problem? I've got so many things on my backlog, gaming barely registers these days.

nguyenSurely make faster revision every 6 months make previous revision owners feel better about themselves :roll: /s.

Oh well, I don't think your opinion hold any value to others, much less to these multi billions dollars company, have fun giving your opinions though. Actual enthusiasts will buy the best performing products, not the one with the best specs.

Well then, enjoy your best performing product that will be replaced by a better version soon, and I'll enjoy wherever my heart and mind are. :)

Just one question: what is an "actual enthusiast"? (whatever it is, it sounds kind of snobby) :roll:

bugOk, now you're not even making sense anymore.

I don't know that, but let's supposed that's true.

Jensen said as much outright in their last open-to-the-public earnings call. For the life of me I can't find the right search terms to bring this back up, but it was widely discussed including on these forums.

bugYou need production capacity to counter sales capacity? If Nvidia is limiting supply, there should be unused fab capacity that AMD can use. Irl, Nvidia isn't limiting anything, the fab capacity is simply not there (more accurate, it's there, but it's contested by a lot more than GPU builders).

... and how long, exactly, do you think this takes? 4-6 months from wafer processing starts to products hit shelves. ~1 month to process wafers, then there's packaging, shipping to the GPU production plant, likely some waiting in a warehouse unless there's spare production line capacity, then QC and all the other steps that go into manufacturing, then testing, retail packaging, and overseash shipping. 4-6 months is not a viable time frame for responding to a current vacuum in the market. It doesn't matter if there's free wafer supply today if there's also a shortage today - the question is if there's a shortage in 4-6 months. And last I checked, a shortage today, especially at the end of a generation, is not indicative of a future shortage.

bugMindshare? Everywhere you turn on the Internet, it's all "Love AMD, hate Nvidia/Intel".

Do you honestly think that the majority of GPU buyers spend time online discussing these things? Most PC gamers barely know what hardware they own. Us enthusiasts are a tiny percentage of the overall customer group.

bugLike I pointed out above, AMD did sell for cheap and it didn't end well for them. They've learned their lesson and are now doing business the more sustainable way.

AMD's market position at the time was entirely different, and they were also severely harmed by Intel literally bribing companies to not buy AMD, so ... yeah. Not quite that simple. Also, literally nobody here is saying AMD should aim for break-even. Nor Nvidia for that sake. All we're saying is that the profit margins they're demanding today are unrealistic and unsustainable in the long run.

bugStop looking for differences where there are none - we have two GPU makers, both operating in the same market, under the same principles. Don't like their products or prices? Don't buy. Read a book, go outside, play a mobile game... the possibilities are endless.

And once again we're back to the dismissive non-arguments. Heck, I could say the same. Don't like that we're complaining? Don't read. Read a book, play a game, go outside ... the possibilities are endless.

bugProblem? I've got so many things on my backlog, gaming barely registers these days.

And yet you're arguing as if your opinion should somehow be authoritative for how we should relate to the gaming market? Got it. I guess vegetarians then get to unilaterally decide that nobody can complain about the price of animal-based foods, or people who exclusively use public transportation get to decide that nobody can complain about the exploitative business practices of car makers? Seriously, dude, try and listen to yourself for a minute here. This is absurd.

ValantarAnd yet you're arguing as if your opinion should somehow be authoritative for how we should relate to the gaming market? Got it. I guess vegetarians then get to unilaterally decide that nobody can complain about the price of animal-based foods, or people who exclusively use public transportation get to decide that nobody can complain about the exploitative business practices of car makers? Seriously, dude, try and listen to yourself for a minute here. This is absurd.

That is what I said before: you're too invested to see things objectively.
And pretty radical about it, it would seem. It's one category or the other. There seems to be no place in your mind for listening to arguments from both sides and decide on merit. Instead, you've just ruled against Nvidia and that is authoritative, because you play games, whereas I don't.

bugThat is what I said before: you're too invested to see things objectively.

Literally no human being has ever held an objective opinion. This is a contradiction in terms. Opinions are situated and subjective by definition, and humans are fundamentally incapable of being "objective" in any real sense of the word. Neither our cognition nor our biology nor the reality of being an embodied, thinking being in a physical world allow for such a thing as an objective opinion. My argument comes from the position of someone who likes and wants to play games in the future, as well as someone who want the PC industry overall to be healthy, sustainable (in every sense of the word), and for it to provide the means for enjoyment and cool things to people interested in this, as well as someone who is generally and broadly opposed to capitalist exploitation as I'm very familiar with its harmful effects. You yourself said that yours comes from someone who doesn't have time to game and thus doesn't care. You see how this is problematic on your part, right, when your argument is "I don't see why people are making such a fuss about this, just don't buy then"? Your argument is, intentionally or not, directly tied to your position. If you're deluding yourself into thinking that makes you see this objectively, that just proves how subjective your opinion is, as that would be your situation and position determining your overall perspective.

bugAnd pretty radical about it, it would seem. It's one category or the other. There seems to be no place in your mind for listening to arguments from both sides and decide on merit. Instead, you've just ruled against Nvidia and that is authoritative, because you play games, whereas I don't.

... or maybe I've actually considered this, weighed various factors against each other, and landed on a rough conclusion? I mean, I'm probably the person on this forum spending the most time fleshing out their arguments, so claiming that I've just decided to pick a side and haven't weighed the various factors involved either shows that you don't actually read much here, or that you're just forgetful. Either way, quite inaccurate. If anything, my conclusions stem from also taking into consideration factors beyond the specific focus on "should people have access to cheap GPUs/is it okay for Nvidia to squeeze money from people", as I follow the political and ethical implications of this broadly. As I've also done in this thread.

Please don't confuse the fact that I know what my opinion is and that I'm willing and able to argue for it with it being a simplistic pre-judgement or that I haven't listened to arguments from however many sides there may be. If you look back at what's been written here, you might spot that I'm responding directly to most of your arguments. Consistently. I've considered them, and found them weak and wanting, and thus they don't affect my opinion further.

I've also literally never said that my opinion is authoritative. I'm arguing for it. I'm not dismissing the opinions of others, I'm arguing against them. The difference between a dismissal (like "go do something else then", "don't buy, then") and an actual counterargument is pretty crucial here.

wolfIn retrospect I'd have done one thing different, my post that you troll quoted was in response to Mr all caps, not to you specifically, I should have altered the order of what I quoted.

But reporting an obvious troll post? Yeah sorry not sorry. I take this community seriously.

man you REALLY take online discussion too seriously

OMW to type essays to someone on a forum instead of doing school work.

bugMindshare? Everywhere you turn on the Internet, it's all "Love AMD, hate Nvidia/Intel".

Ehehe yeah that's the word, now let's see the market. People lie, because its the internet. In fact, if 10% of what you read on a day is true on this media, you're doing pretty good.

I think real mindshare comes from track record and consistency. Nvidia is still consistent, even if its consistently not my cup of tea since a few generations. But they release gen-to-gen samey stacks with samey principles and price structure. You know what's coming. AMD has none of that consistency since Fury X, and RDNA3 is going to have to prove if its going to be consistent to RDNA1. We haven't got a full stack just yet.

The mindshare required to purchase from a new brand is 'trust'. People talking in favor of a company is just people trying to build trust for themselves, looking for the group consensus. Most people are cowards. They follow. Its the reason everyone is still on Whatsapp while Signal is much better.

nguyenActual enthusiasts will buy .

FTFY. Note the full stop there. You should really stop trying to define your thought processes as common sense. Its all good, you do you, but that's where it ends. You keep speaking for a group as if there is one 'like yourself', its hilarious to see the quest for confirmation honestly.

nguyenYou claimed Nvidia released a faster SKU 6 months later, which they didn't.

AMD actually released 3 revisions of 6900XT, each maybe 6 months apart, and it was fine to you.

Looks like your opinions are rather very biased

6900Xt released on December 8th 2020.
6950Xt released may 10th 2022.

Your talking balls Pal.

TheoneandonlyMrK6900Xt released on December 8th 2020.
6950Xt released may 10th 2022.

Your talking balls Pal.

I think they're referring to the Navi 21 XT/XTX/XTXH variants (6950 XT is Navi 21 KXTX), i.e. the stock card, the various "ultimate" versions that launched from various vendors a bit later (that were essentially a minor bin focused on OC potential at high voltages), and the XTXH bin that was AFAIK only ever used in the OEM-focused (but at times retail available) 6900 XT Liquid Cooled. The only issue with this is that differences between the three are minuscule, while the difference between something like an RTX 3090 and 3090 Ti are much more significant - on top of these also being planned segmentations with a staggered launch, rather than "we've got some more top bins now, let's do a minor special OC edition" at various points.

ValantarThat's part of the problem though. That GPU won't last forever, and at some point you'll then be forced to either buy a new one or quit gaming, which again forces you into making choices largely determined by these corporations. Even if your choice is that you've stopped gaming as much and can't be bothered, even that choice has been influenced by the fact that you've been put in a certain position relative to GPU makers. No choice is made in a vacuum. All the while, your "message" is as passive of a message as is possible, and as you say, they don't care - in large part because they literally can't hear it. If we want them to actually keep the things they make accessible, then we need to not be that passive, because we're seeing that if left alone, they'll screw us all over. And why on earth would we want to let them keep going in that direction? And if your objection to that is "well, it doesn't matter that much to me", then why are you wasting your time complaining about the actions of people for whom it does matter? "I don't think you should be complaining about this thing because it isn't that important to me" is not a logically sound stance.

I found a different way out of the upgrade limbo- I waited long enough now that I don't even bother with modern AAA and really don't care about that rat race. I suggest everyone to try- it is very liberating. As NV did, push the un-buy bottom, stick to it for 5 years or so and the magic will begin. And I haven't giving up on gaming at all, not for a day.
I keep my good old faithful 970GTX and play whatever free game EPIC, STEAM or so send me. Many good "old" but new to me titles are still keeping me busy very happily.
You can say that NV\AMD business practice left me no choice or shoved me in that direction and maybe it is true, but in the end they don't see my money and that what's count.
I don't see any productive way to make a change except make the call not to upgrade or to propone it as much as you can. And that practice is DOA because most people don't have the patience to wait- gaming is filling a very important need to them.
I know that and I know that trying to change that very human nature is to battle windmills. It is their escapism and aiming at a long range goal, while sacrificing today, is not a possibility.
Unless united under a very strong symbol, and no such symbol is around, the change will not come from forums like this or from YouTube channels.
Only fierce competition will help.

AusWolfAnd I wanna play Quake 2 RTX and Minecraft RTX even if they run at 5 FPS! Accurate lighting adds so much realism to building blocks half the size of your viewing angle! :rockout: Only joking. :D


I'm actually in between the two camps with RT. A good implementation can look cool if your PC can run it, but if it can't, meh, whatevs. :)

As for high-resolution, high refresh rate gaming, my opinion is a definite "no thanks" unless someone throws a random £10k at me.


Brand image? I mean, when you buy the highest of the high end, and then an even higher end product follows half a year later, it can be seen as a scummy move. Besides, when a new line launches with only partially disabled GPUs on the table, you know something better is reserved for later. It might not bother some, but it does bother me.

It's all about making money, and as for the looking scummy well it hurt nVidia's profits has it now.

Dirt ChipI found a different way out of the upgrade limbo- I waited long enough now that I don't even bother with modern AAA and really don't care about that rat race. I suggest everyone to try- it is very liberating. As NV did, push the un-buy bottom, stick to it for 5 years or so and the magic will begin. And I haven't giving up on gaming at all, to for a day.
I keep my good old faithful 970GTX and play whatever free game EPIC, STEAM or so send me. Many good "old" but new to me titles are still keeping me busy very happily.
You can say that NV\AMD business practice left me no choice or shoved me in that direction and maybe it is true, but in the end they don't see my money and that what's count.
I don't see any productive way to make a change except make the call not to upgrade or to propone it as much as you can. And that practice is DOA because most of the don't have the patience to wait- gaming is filling a very important need to them.
I know that and I know that trying to change that very human nature is to battle windmills. It is their escapism and aiming at a long range goal, while sacrificing today, is not a possibility.
Unless united under a very strong symbol, and no such symbol is around, the change will not come from forums like this or from YouTube channels.
Only fierce competition will help.

The reason why I find truth in what you're saying is because games get released at a faster rate than I manage to find the time to play them. So no matter how much I play, my backlog is growing exponentially. Also, the way you push the un-buy button on generational upgrades, you can also push the un-buy button on technologies like ray tracing, DLSS, 4K, or high refresh rate gaming. You can look at what is new - or you can look at what you actually need. The choice is yours.

AusWolfThe reason why I find truth in what you're saying is because games get released at a faster rate than I manage to find the time to play them. So no matter how much I play, my backlog is growing exponentially. Also, the way you push the un-buy button on generational upgrades, you can also push the un-buy button on technologies like ray tracing, DLSS, 4K, or high refresh rate gaming. You can look at what is new - or you can look at what you actually need. The choice is yours.

Yep. By un-linking your-self from the hardware you run- that is not feeling crippled by a 'cut-down' GPU, obsolete by having 'outdated motherboard IO', self giving up by compromising on eye candy setting, being fulld by having 'fack e-cores' and most importantly not playing the red vs blue vs green love affair game- I can quite freally choose just what is right for me in the time that's right for me.

A fun fact: Just yesterday I ordered my next system that I've been working on for the past 2 years, mainly by waiting for the right parts for me to become. A nice video editing machine based on 13900k and 64GB DDR5 that will replace my current "dirt sheep" i5-2400 with 16GB DDR3 (I managed to skipped ddr4 and pcie4 altogether, yey). The 970GTX will stay for the time being, until a suitable canidae will show itself, hopefully in 2023 but I'm in no hurry.

Dirt ChipA fun fact: Just yesterday I ordered my next system that I been working on for the past 2 years, mainly by waiting for the right parts for me to become. A nice video editing machine based on 13900k and 64GB DDR5 that will replace my 16GB DDR3 with i5-2400 (I skipped ddr4 and pcie4 altogether). The 970GTX will stay for the time being, until a suitable canidae will show itself, hopefully in 2023 but I'm in no hurry.

Nice! I just got my 7950X, 32GB@6000Cl36, with a "new" 48" OLED 4k Gigabyte monitor.

Dirt ChipYep. By un-linking your-self from the hardware you run- that is not feeling crippled by a 'cut-down' GPU, obsolete by having 'outdated motherboard IO', self giving up by compromising on eye candy setting, being fulld by having 'fack e-cores' and most importantly not playing the red vs blue vs green love affair game- I can quite freally choose just what is right for me in the time that's right for me.

A fun fact: Just yesterday I ordered my next system that I been working on for the past 2 years, mainly by waiting for the right parts for me to become. A nice video editing machine based on 13900k and 64GB DDR5 that will replace my 16GB DDR3 with i5-2400 (I skipped ddr4 and pcie4 altogether). The 970GTX will stay for the time being, until a suitable canidae will show itself, hopefully in 2023 but I'm in no hurry.

That's a nice 11 generation skip! :D

Ever since Covid, I've been buying a lot more hardware than I need, but I'm going to challenge myself now, and try to stay with the 7700X + 32 GB + 6750 XT as long as I can. "More hardware is better than new hardware" has been my motto, but my PC room is full of unused stuff, so it'll have to stop now.