| Tuesday, July 1 2008 |
The RV770 is perhaps the best thing that happened to AMD in a long while. But more than AMD, it's perhaps the best thing that happened to us, the consumers. But general product launches seem to be just the tip of the ice-berg. The new PCB's designed by ATI for RV770 cards are actually running at well below the clock speed they can support and there is every reason to believe that these cards will be challenging NVIDIA's very best.
The HD4870 PCB with two 6-pin power connectors can support a maximum TDP of 225W (2x 75W from the power connectors + 75W from the PCI-Express interface). While at stock parameters, the HD4870 will not consume over 170W, it implies that with a fair bit of binning for high-performing parts, there is a serious lot of room for overclocking way beyond what the ordinary HD4870 cards can take.
ATI is binning the parts to a lowest denominator required for good yields and a level of performance that reaches or sometimes overtakes the GeForce GTX 260. But this time around, the company developed an AIB/OEM-only product codenamed "Super RV770", which will be much more powerful.
These cards will come with pre-installed water-cooling and feature an 'unlocked BIOS'. Déjà Vu? Yes, it's perhaps the same parts that went into making the Diamond HD4870 XOC Unlocked Black Edition which was released earlier. The BIOS allows manufacturers to push the GPU core speed all the way up to 950 MHz, with the memory being able to scale up to 1200 MHz (effective: 4.80 GHz). With even better cooling such as a thermo-electric couple (TEC) cooler, you might be able to push it a little further. At 1200 MHz memory, the card attains a memory bandwidth of 150 GBps.
With Diamond Multimedia already having a product in the making, expect announcements from other ATI partners such as ASUS, Sapphire, HIS and GeCube.
Source: DailyTech
The HD4870 PCB with two 6-pin power connectors can support a maximum TDP of 225W (2x 75W from the power connectors + 75W from the PCI-Express interface). While at stock parameters, the HD4870 will not consume over 170W, it implies that with a fair bit of binning for high-performing parts, there is a serious lot of room for overclocking way beyond what the ordinary HD4870 cards can take.
ATI is binning the parts to a lowest denominator required for good yields and a level of performance that reaches or sometimes overtakes the GeForce GTX 260. But this time around, the company developed an AIB/OEM-only product codenamed "Super RV770", which will be much more powerful.
These cards will come with pre-installed water-cooling and feature an 'unlocked BIOS'. Déjà Vu? Yes, it's perhaps the same parts that went into making the Diamond HD4870 XOC Unlocked Black Edition which was released earlier. The BIOS allows manufacturers to push the GPU core speed all the way up to 950 MHz, with the memory being able to scale up to 1200 MHz (effective: 4.80 GHz). With even better cooling such as a thermo-electric couple (TEC) cooler, you might be able to push it a little further. At 1200 MHz memory, the card attains a memory bandwidth of 150 GBps.
With Diamond Multimedia already having a product in the making, expect announcements from other ATI partners such as ASUS, Sapphire, HIS and GeCube.
Source: DailyTech
User comments
Oh Baby
well a really good custom after market air cooler could probably run the chips at 950 as well, I am already running at 790core, with temps never exceeding 65c under hours of gaming, that is with the stock cooler with fan speed at 40%. So the companys could easily hit 950 on air with a special bios as well, I really don't think that water cooling is really required for that speed.
sounds fun. to be honest, i think they'll all be like that diamond model.
I hope this means, that all I need is some great cooling and a bios flash and I can have 900+ on the core!:p
by: erocker;864219It's not just a BIOS flash you'll need, those cards have higher binned parts (incl. the GPU) that allow stable operation at 950+ MHz.
I hope this means, that all I need is some great cooling and a bios flash and I can have 900+ on the core!:p
yum, I can smell the burning silicon already :D
a 4870 at 900mhz core and 4.8ghz memory would be NUTSO :D:D
me wantie, that would really kick my 9800GTX in the nuts, and actually represent a viable upgrade.
me wantie, that would really kick my 9800GTX in the nuts, and actually represent a viable upgrade.
by: erocker;864219Those were my thoughts exactly. just take the place of binning with better cooling. lol.
I hope this means, that all I need is some great cooling and a bios flash and I can have 900+ on the core!:p
ATI need the RV771. A rework, probably, of ROPs and local cache size/latency. I think we have enough TMU and SPEs to scale a bit further... problem is the bottleneck is elsewhere. Why?
I've yet to see ONE benchmark, real or synthetic, where th 4850/70 is scoring 250% x the 3870/50 units. So that means with 800/40 SPE/TMU (250% of 320/16) the poor buggers are not scaling and are handicapped elsewhere. "OVERCLOCKING" isnt really getting more performance out of the SPE/TMU but from overclocking the bottleneck area... whereever that bottleneck is.
But that is a serious waste of power and unnecessary heat. Attack the problem directly. Find and solve the bottleneck.
*** HUNT THE BOTTLENECK ***
1./ It's not SPE/TMU. We've go enough of those. In fact more than the GTX280
2./ It's not memory clocks. With GDDR5, we're faster then GTX280
3./ It's not PCIe1.0/2.0 interface. GTX280 can burst through
>> Drivers?
>> ROPs?
>> Local thread scheduler problems/cache/latency?
>> Memory bandwidth? Does ATI need to get back to 512-bit? Is there too much latency with 256-bit due to multiple read/write rather than single read/write
***ARCHITECTURE***
Perhaps the *new* 800SPE and *new* 40 TMU are, in fact, less powerful PER UNIT than the old ones... due to instruction scheduling, data caching, and transistor-count optimisation issues. Getting 250% more units in only 33% more silicon will require some compromise somewhere. Perhaps that's the problem.
I've yet to see ONE benchmark, real or synthetic, where th 4850/70 is scoring 250% x the 3870/50 units. So that means with 800/40 SPE/TMU (250% of 320/16) the poor buggers are not scaling and are handicapped elsewhere. "OVERCLOCKING" isnt really getting more performance out of the SPE/TMU but from overclocking the bottleneck area... whereever that bottleneck is.
But that is a serious waste of power and unnecessary heat. Attack the problem directly. Find and solve the bottleneck.
*** HUNT THE BOTTLENECK ***
1./ It's not SPE/TMU. We've go enough of those. In fact more than the GTX280
2./ It's not memory clocks. With GDDR5, we're faster then GTX280
3./ It's not PCIe1.0/2.0 interface. GTX280 can burst through
>> Drivers?
>> ROPs?
>> Local thread scheduler problems/cache/latency?
>> Memory bandwidth? Does ATI need to get back to 512-bit? Is there too much latency with 256-bit due to multiple read/write rather than single read/write
***ARCHITECTURE***
It's tempting to compare this number to the 240 stream processing units of the GTX 200 GPU, or the 128 shaders of the G92 chip that will power the boards competing with the Radeon HD 4850 and 4870. Unfortunately, you can't just add up shader units to determine total computational power. Each of these units has a different design, and Nvidia clocks their shader units at a higher speed than the core clock of their GPU.
One of the long-maligned sore spots of the R600 and RV670 architecture is that it only had 16 texture units. It has long been our belief, and others, that simple texture address and filter rates held those chips back in a great many applications. ATI apparently agrees, because they have made major improvements here. Now there are 4 texture units per SIMD array, for a total of 40. The units themselves have been redesigned to get more work done in less transistors and die size. The result is a massive increase in texture address and filter power that bears itself out in our lab tests.
Perhaps the *new* 800SPE and *new* 40 TMU are, in fact, less powerful PER UNIT than the old ones... due to instruction scheduling, data caching, and transistor-count optimisation issues. Getting 250% more units in only 33% more silicon will require some compromise somewhere. Perhaps that's the problem.
The real question is, when will these be available retail?
-Indybird
-Indybird
by: lemonadesoda;864269most people would call that bottleneck a CPU :P
ATI need the RV771. A rework, probably, of ROPs and local cache size/latency. I think we have enough TMU and SPEs to scale a bit further... problem is the bottleneck is elsewhere. Why?
I've yet to see ONE benchmark, real or synthetic, where th 4850/70 is scoring 250% x the 3870/50 units. So that means with 800/40 SPE/TMU (250% of 320/16) the poor buggers are not scaling and are handicapped elsewhere. "OVERCLOCKING" isnt really getting more performance out of the SPE/TMU but from overclocking the bottleneck area... whereever that bottleneck is.
But that is a serious waste of power and unnecessary heat. Attack the problem directly. Find and solve the bottleneck.
by: Mussels;864279lol, haha, that was a good one man, yea that is pretty simple.
most people would call that bottleneck a CPU :P
I will post some numbers later with my cpu running at 4.2ghz.
by: Mussels;864279
most people would call that bottleneck a CPU :P
I REALLY do hope you are joking. You saying that the performance bottleneck on synthetics or GPU limited tests, is the CPU? ROFL. :nutkick:
Just take a benchmark that is pretty much independent of CPU, like FurMark. QED
@NKD, take your PC, choose a clock for your GPU and stick with it. Now run Furmark with your CPU @2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.2 and show your results. I bet they are all within 1% of each other, probably even closer.
Next. Choose clocks for your GPU and CPU and stick with it. Now run Furmark with your GPU with memory clocks (main GPU clock same) increasing. Plot the results. Any difference? If there is, then there is a memory bottleneck. If it doesnt increase, or it is only marginal, then there is no memory bottleneck. (For furmark at least)
Next. Choose clocks for your GPU and CPU and stick with it. Now run Furmark with your GPU with memory clocks (main GPU clock same) increasing. Plot the results. Any difference? If there is, then there is a memory bottleneck. If it doesnt increase, or it is only marginal, then there is no memory bottleneck. (For furmark at least)
yeh that is what i talking about, super rv 770 , but i hope to add havok physics too , that will be best card for 2008
I said this would happen in the Diamond thread.
Will these Super RV770's be the ATI Radeon HD 4850+/4870+ series?
I suppose I'll wait a while before buying a 4870 now, wait to see what these better RV770's are capable of.
I suppose I'll wait a while before buying a 4870 now, wait to see what these better RV770's are capable of.
Will the 256bit memory bus be able to give us the bandwidth needed if the RAM is maxed out, that's what I want to know.
by: InnocentCriminal;864327
Will the 256bit memory bus be able to give us the bandwidth needed if the RAM is maxed out, that's what I want to know.
With GDDR5, the bus width isn't as significant a figure as it used to be with GDDR4/3. Each pin of the memory bank transfers 2x the amount of data /clock cycle. 1200 MHz (2400MHz DDR) 256bit GDDR5 means the same bandwidth as 1200 MHz (2400 MHz DDR) 512bit GDDR3.
for sure the winner here is the consumer! now wouldnt it be hilarious of matrox decided to enter the high end gpu market?
by: btarunr;864334
With GDDR5, the bus width isn't as significant a figure as it used to be with GDDR4/3. Each pin of the memory bank transfers 2x the amount of data /clock cycle. 1200 MHz (2400MHz DDR) 256bit GDDR5 means the same bandwidth as 1200 MHz (2400 MHz DDR) 512bit GDDR3.
You're right, I completely ignored the fact GDDR5 has that benefit as well as consuming far less power whilst doing so, but don't you mean GDDR4 not GDDR3?
EDIT: No, I'm stupid, GDDR3. Man, I hate mornings.
by: lemonadesoda;864289Explain why my FPS jumps from 30 FPS to 50FPS + from 1.86Ghz to 2.4Ghz..... The GPU cannot function without the CPU. The CPU is a bottleneck, NO benchmark is 100% independent from the GPU as the CPU processes the data from the HDD BEFORE it goes to the GPU.
I REALLY do hope you are joking. You saying that the performance bottleneck on synthetics or GPU limited tests, is the CPU? ROFL. :nutkick:
Just take a benchmark that is pretty much independent of CPU, like FurMark. QED
Try adding a bit of useful information, like game, resolution, effects. Otherwise my explanation that you asked for is: you changed the settings. ROFL. 50fps+ is 70%+ more than 30fps. But you increased your CPU only 30%. ROFL.
by: lemonadesodaYep, thats the problem.
***ARCHITECTURE***
Perhaps the *new* 800SPE and *new* 40 TMU are, in fact, less powerful PER UNIT than the old ones... due to instruction scheduling, data caching, and transistor-count optimisation issues. Getting 250% more units in only 33% more silicon will require some compromise somewhere. Perhaps that's the problem.
From what I've picked up, ATi have decided to try using heaps of stream processing units, except they've had to downsize them so that they would fit on the die. They gave their designers a specific transistor count and size to work in, so the designers must'v had to cut back on the power of each unit.
If they made each SPU the same as the last generation, the die size would be MASSIVE!
I hope they get 45 nm chips out soon (better SPUs!), and not only ATI: c'mon AMD, where's some die shrinks??
interesting theory lemonadesoda. i had suspected that all of the cut downs to get 250% more juice under the hood in only 33% more space had to incorporate some cutting corners somewhere.
however the fact remains that the chips are ,on average, twice as fast as their 38xx series predecessor. no matter how its done i guess it works.
however the fact remains that the chips are ,on average, twice as fast as their 38xx series predecessor. no matter how its done i guess it works.
The stream processors aren't very different from rv670, the difference is the way in which SPUs and TMUs have been paired, and optimization of the core layout.
The only bottlenecks in the rv770 architecture are a lack of ROPs and the link between core speed and shader speed.
The only bottlenecks in the rv770 architecture are a lack of ROPs and the link between core speed and shader speed.
Originally Posted by lemonadesoda
***ARCHITECTURE***
Perhaps the *new* 800SPE and *new* 40 TMU are, in fact, less powerful PER UNIT than the old ones... due to instruction scheduling, data caching, and transistor-count optimisation issues. Getting 250% more units in only 33% more silicon will require some compromise somewhere. Perhaps that's the problem.
exactly its apples and oranges....i mean not only is the architecture scalar vs super scalar cough innefficent cough but i mean other than the fact that nvidias version of shaders and ati's are programmed or rather built to process in totally diff ways but its abvious that even though maybe ati's SP methodolagy is a little slower than nvidias with 800 shaders their something behind the scnenes slowing this card down
by: lemonadesoda;864269That's a good point. They had to have cut corners in order to fit everything onto the die, so the architecture between the two will be similar, but not exactly the same. If they had exactly the same architecture, then theoretically we'd be seeing the 250% better numbers and 250% bigger PCB. This is the first batch of the R770's, so we can only expect them to fix the problems for the next release.
***ARCHITECTURE***
Perhaps the *new* 800SPE and *new* 40 TMU are, in fact, less powerful PER UNIT than the old ones... due to instruction scheduling, data caching, and transistor-count optimisation issues. Getting 250% more units in only 33% more silicon will require some compromise somewhere. Perhaps that's the problem.
I'm not too worried about it though, because to the consumer, these issues don't really matter. The 4000 series is proving to be incredibly efficient and economical, which is something nVidia can't say at the moment.
i remember my x1800gto having dynamic voltage control, and after unlocking it to 16 pipes, i could bump the voltage and run 700/700 from 500/500. I hope it's the same with these cards.
i wonder what would happen if they made the rv7-- the same size as the the gtx2-- (not the 55nm thing the other bigger one) and added stuff proportianately. then ill be like :eek:
well im sticking with my 3870 for a bit longer then. if this is true and they make a 4870 x2 version of this then im definitely waiting.
by: Nkd;864216
well a really good custom after market air cooler could probably run the chips at 950 as well, I am already running at 790core, with temps never exceeding 65c under hours of gaming, that is with the stock cooler with fan speed at 40%. So the companys could easily hit 950 on air with a special bios as well, I really don't think that water cooling is really required for that speed.
Which is exactly why this looks like a gimmicky way to get sales.
If they sell it without the cooler, then that's ok.
I don't want any of my liquid cooling ever coming pre-assembled.
And I still can't get over the fact that they're suggesting they 'hard lock' GPUs....
by: FatForester;864553
That's a good point. They had to have cut corners in order to fit everything onto the die, so the architecture between the two will be similar, but not exactly the same. If they had exactly the same architecture, then theoretically we'd be seeing the 250% better numbers and 250% bigger PCB. This is the first batch of the R770's, so we can only expect them to fix the problems for the next release.
I'm not too worried about it though, because to the consumer, these issues don't really matter. The 4000 series is proving to be incredibly efficient and economical, which is something nVidia can't say at the moment.
Not sure where you're getting your information from, but the 4800 series has all but given the 'finger' to the heat/power consumption/noise issue.
This time around, and even some of the previous cards, Nvidia is leading in that department.
Go find some reviews on it. As an example, a GTX 280 can idle on air at around 50c and cap at 65c under load for some people. A 4850, yes 4850, idles at over 70c, take a guess where it peaks at ?
ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.
^So they used a bad thermal paste on the 4850.. so what? re-apply it and its fixed. by the way, i'm sure the next shipments of parts would get a new paste.
About the die size and performance compared to spu, well, ofcourse there was some need to cut back in a few areas in order to make the silicon "normal" in size and yields. look at performance figures - the job is done, the cards are twice as fast as their predecessors.
So the core can be better utilized and has more potential, maybe yes. i say they will develop on this potential in the upcoming generations. these things are fast enough :toast:
Oh, 4890 FTW! :)
About the die size and performance compared to spu, well, ofcourse there was some need to cut back in a few areas in order to make the silicon "normal" in size and yields. look at performance figures - the job is done, the cards are twice as fast as their predecessors.
So the core can be better utilized and has more potential, maybe yes. i say they will develop on this potential in the upcoming generations. these things are fast enough :toast:
Oh, 4890 FTW! :)
by: newconroer;864738
Which is exactly why this looks like a gimmicky way to get sales.
If they sell it without the cooler, then that's ok.
I don't want any of my liquid cooling ever coming pre-assembled.
And I still can't get over the fact that they're suggesting they 'hard lock' GPUs....
Not sure where you're getting your information from, but the 4800 series has all but given the 'finger' to the heat/power consumption/noise issue.
This time around, and even some of the previous cards, Nvidia is leading in that department.
Go find some reviews on it. As an example, a GTX 280 can idle on air at around 50c and cap at 65c under load for some people. A 4850, yes 4850, idles at over 70c, take a guess where it peaks at ?
ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.
With proper cooler (for example: accelero s1) the 4850 has a temperature below 50 celsius under load.
by: newconroer;864738
Which is exactly why this looks like a gimmicky way to get sales.
If they sell it without the cooler, then that's ok.
I don't want any of my liquid cooling ever coming pre-assembled.
And I still can't get over the fact that they're suggesting they 'hard lock' GPUs....
Not sure where you're getting your information from, but the 4800 series has all but given the 'finger' to the heat/power consumption/noise issue.
This time around, and even some of the previous cards, Nvidia is leading in that department.
Go find some reviews on it. As an example, a GTX 280 can idle on air at around 50c and cap at 65c under load for some people. A 4850, yes 4850, idles at over 70c, take a guess where it peaks at ?
ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.
ATi has not "gave the finger" to heat and noise. The 48xx series is much quieter than any previous series. They slowed the fan speed down to achieve this, and the cards run hotter. Is this an "overheating issue"?....No, if they ran 100+, then there would be an issue. The cards run at a perfectly fine temperature, and the 4850 is single-slot, huge plus for alot of people.
Comparing a GTX280 to a 4850 is not right, they both use different coolers, the GTX280 use's a large dual-slot cooler, the 4850 a small single-slot cooler. I would like to see Nvidia release a GTX2xx card with a single-slot cooler. Put that dual-slot cooler on the 4850 and it would load in the 50's. 4850's idle at high 60's, and peak at 80....same as alot of cards on the market.
by: newconroer;864738dunno what you mean about loudness, these cards are much quieter than the gtx280 take a look at wiz's review for that.
Which is exactly why this looks like a gimmicky way to get sales.
If they sell it without the cooler, then that's ok.
I don't want any of my liquid cooling ever coming pre-assembled.
And I still can't get over the fact that they're suggesting they 'hard lock' GPUs....
Not sure where you're getting your information from, but the 4800 series has all but given the 'finger' to the heat/power consumption/noise issue.
This time around, and even some of the previous cards, Nvidia is leading in that department.
Go find some reviews on it. As an example, a GTX 280 can idle on air at around 50c and cap at 65c under load for some people. A 4850, yes 4850, idles at over 70c, take a guess where it peaks at ?
ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.
but the heat issue is due to a bios locked setting of 16% fan speed. once you cnahye the speed, you get a much cooler card. you just have to balance noise vs heat. erockers 4870 at 50% fan speed gets 38c idle 55c load. and he says he can't hear the 4870's fan above hsi other system fans at 50% I'll bet the next bath of cards will have a different setting to allow better cooling performance.
I bet ATI will make a X2 version using these parts and pee on the GTX 280 55nm whenever it comes out. :P
All very exciting news coming out of the Red-Green camp. Im in the same boat as the other guy about preinstalled water cooling, but it couldnt hurt either. Im sure it would fit nicely into my koolance exos (which Im gonna rebuild a bit).
by: newconroer;864738but considering for how long ATI have been behind in performance, they had to do something - considering how for the longest time (and even now) the vast majority of people cared more about performance than thermal output and efficiency. Those of us here, and a few other forums, are different from the norm - we take power consumption and efficiency into account with the overall offering by a card . . . but everywhere else :wtf:
ATi chucked one of their main staples in order to close the performance gap on Nvidia.
So, something drastic needed to change - and even though these cards can microwave a potato in about 2.5min, look at how well they're selling.
by: btarunr;865054wouldn't surprise me at all - I had been getting the feeling ATI have had another ace up their sleeve, and then we hear of this . . . I'm sure they have something to counter whatever nVidia dram up to piss-on the 4870x2.
I bet ATI will make a X2 version using these parts and pee on the GTX 280 55nm whenever it comes out. :P
ATI have played this whole generation release perfectly, I am in awe :respect:
RV870 is 40nm ;)
That's good WarEagle, let's abuse the "Thanks" feature some more (why not, it's done daily) by 'thanking' people for their opinions, a long line of excuses, that only reflect their mislead fan'boism.'
;thumbs up;
The point was that the 4800s ARE louder, hotter and consume more at a considerably larger percentage in just one generation jump. This aspect has been a big part of their forte in the past.
Although, it looks like they got tired of that approach, and chucked it to the bin, like I said before, to catch up to Nvidia.
And I'm all for it, at least the performance gain, just not the ethics.
However, let's not bullshit here. If Nvidia puts out a power house card, the first damn thing people speculate on, is that it's going to be a 'dog,' a mini radiator that could heat your room in the winter, etc. And in the past at times, such claims would have been valid, however Nvidia, in one generation, has improved upon this issue.
-Ati focuses on it less and gains performance.
-Nvidia focuses on it more and ;gasp; gains performance, still out performing.
What happens to the 'price/performance' cliche, when you have to change your case, and/or buy aftermarket coolers to compensate???
Now what do you expect is going to happen when they do this 'unlocking' the clocks non-sense and actually have increased voltages? Que the waterblock?
The 4800 series dissapoints me, because it represents ATi compromising something that was apparently very important to them, and their customers. And this 'super' bit only takes it one step further, as if saying they want the 'crown,' and they want to retain it. But at what cost?
Remember what's his face from ATi saying publically that the X2 would dominate a GTX 280?
When was the last time ATi made such a comment?
I think they've done a 180 and thrown everything they had left into this strategy to attack Nvidia while they were sleeping.
ATi doesn't have the money or resources to fight fire with fire. And I don't want to see them bowing out, because some twat executive has a personal genda to top Nvidia for several months.
;thumbs up;
The point was that the 4800s ARE louder, hotter and consume more at a considerably larger percentage in just one generation jump. This aspect has been a big part of their forte in the past.
Although, it looks like they got tired of that approach, and chucked it to the bin, like I said before, to catch up to Nvidia.
And I'm all for it, at least the performance gain, just not the ethics.
However, let's not bullshit here. If Nvidia puts out a power house card, the first damn thing people speculate on, is that it's going to be a 'dog,' a mini radiator that could heat your room in the winter, etc. And in the past at times, such claims would have been valid, however Nvidia, in one generation, has improved upon this issue.
-Ati focuses on it less and gains performance.
-Nvidia focuses on it more and ;gasp; gains performance, still out performing.
What happens to the 'price/performance' cliche, when you have to change your case, and/or buy aftermarket coolers to compensate???
Now what do you expect is going to happen when they do this 'unlocking' the clocks non-sense and actually have increased voltages? Que the waterblock?
The 4800 series dissapoints me, because it represents ATi compromising something that was apparently very important to them, and their customers. And this 'super' bit only takes it one step further, as if saying they want the 'crown,' and they want to retain it. But at what cost?
Remember what's his face from ATi saying publically that the X2 would dominate a GTX 280?
When was the last time ATi made such a comment?
I think they've done a 180 and thrown everything they had left into this strategy to attack Nvidia while they were sleeping.
ATi doesn't have the money or resources to fight fire with fire. And I don't want to see them bowing out, because some twat executive has a personal genda to top Nvidia for several months.
by: Urbklr;864869
ATi has not "gave the finger" to heat and noise. The 48xx series is much quieter than any previous series. They slowed the fan speed down to achieve this, and the cards run hotter. Is this an "overheating issue"?....No, if they ran 100+, then there would be an issue. The cards run at a perfectly fine temperature, and the 4850 is single-slot, huge plus for alot of people.
Comparing a GTX280 to a 4850 is not right, they both use different coolers, the GTX280 use's a large dual-slot cooler, the 4850 a small single-slot cooler. I would like to see Nvidia release a GTX2xx card with a single-slot cooler. Put that dual-slot cooler on the 4850 and it would load in the 50's. 4850's idle at high 60's, and peak at 80....same as alot of cards on the market.
heat and temperature are two different things. Recognize.
also changing teh 4850 fanspeed to 35% drops temps significantly.
Both cards can run near 100c on load with the stock cooler settings. This was most likely a mistake by ATi to keep noise down because both cards are completely silent. I hate silent video cards. I like to hear them click when the system boots up & I want to hear the fan while gaming. But those fans can be the loudest on the planet if you turn them up to 100%. I see ATi fixing this with later released cards. The GPUs can take the heat but most users can't, atleast I know I can't :p
They must know that the cards are stuck at 18% but the cards are hardly more noisy at 50% & the cards don't even reach 75c at that speed.
They must know that the cards are stuck at 18% but the cards are hardly more noisy at 50% & the cards don't even reach 75c at that speed.
by: hayder.master;864312they have cuda.. why would they use havoc when havoc is owned by intel, a huge rival to amd..?
yeh that is what i talking about, super rv 770 , but i hope to add havok physics too , that will be best card for 2008
by: newconroer;866441Frustrated much? And I dig the "fan'boism" comment, particularly for the irony...
That's good WarEagle, let's abuse the "Thanks" feature some more (why not, it's done daily) by 'thanking' people for their opinions, a long line of excuses, that only reflect their mislead fan'boism.'
;thumbs up;
Ooooooh the irony... Yes, there it is... *cough*fanboy*cough*
-Ati focuses on it less and gains performance.
-Nvidia focuses on it more and ;gasp; gains performance, still out performing.
Oh hey, so while we're on the topic of energy efficiency, can we talk about economic efficiency? Let's not joke around, nVidia could stand to focus on that a bit as well...
I've almost gained a little bit of respect for you here, what with the highly emotional and ethical approach you take to picking out your components, but I can't help but find your argument entirely one-sided and, frankly, a little ridiculous.
The 4800 series dissapoints me, because it represents ATi compromising something that was apparently very important to them, and their customers. And this 'super' bit only takes it one step further, as if saying they want the 'crown,' and they want to retain it. But at what cost?
ATi isn't compromising any of its values here.. The only reason their new cards run so hot is because they're practically silent and, in the case of the 4850 you so viciously attacked earlier in the thread, can be outfitted with single-slot coolers. We're talking not only half the heatsink material (very important for load temps), but a fan that's half the height of the GTX260/280's as well, and thus moves a whole heck of a lot less air.
Evidently nVidia wasn't sleeping, what with the paper-launched 9800GTX+ they released in the middle of the night... Now you want to talk about tricky business practices?
I think they've done a 180 and thrown everything they had left into this strategy to attack Nvidia while they were sleeping.
I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, but really man, how can you make this kind of argument? ATi has delivered higher-performing, quieter chips that take up less room and cost less than the HD3 series. How can you possibly turn that into an attack on their ethics?
Now you could be right on the whole heat argument, as we all know that heat and high voltage are surefire killers of silicon-based microchips, but we won't know how that's affected the lifespan of these cards until we see them start going out en masse. Until then? Buy Visiontek. Lifetime warranty FTW! :D
by: Megasty;866453
Both cards can run near 100c on load with the stock cooler settings. This was most likely a mistake by ATi to keep noise down because both cards are completely silent. I hate silent video cards. I like to hear them click when the system boots up & I want to hear the fan while gaming. But those fans can be the loudest on the planet if you turn them up to 100%. I see ATi fixing this with later released cards. The GPUs can take the heat but most users can't, atleast I know I can't :p
They must know that the cards are stuck at 18% but the cards are hardly more noisy at 50% & the cards don't even reach 75c at that speed.
this argument/line of reasoning makes no sense
again i say, heat and temperature are 2 different things.
by: newconroer;866441
That's good WarEagle, let's abuse the "Thanks" feature some more (why not, it's done daily) by 'thanking' people for their opinions, a long line of excuses, that only reflect their mislead fan'boism.'
;thumbs up;
The point was that the 4800s ARE louder, hotter and consume more at a considerably larger percentage in just one generation jump. This aspect has been a big part of their forte in the past.
Although, it looks like they got tired of that approach, and chucked it to the bin, like I said before, to catch up to Nvidia.
And I'm all for it, at least the performance gain, just not the ethics.
However, let's not bullshit here. If Nvidia puts out a power house card, the first damn thing people speculate on, is that it's going to be a 'dog,' a mini radiator that could heat your room in the winter, etc. And in the past at times, such claims would have been valid, however Nvidia, in one generation, has improved upon this issue.
-Ati focuses on it less and gains performance.
-Nvidia focuses on it more and ;gasp; gains performance, still out performing.
What happens to the 'price/performance' cliche, when you have to change your case, and/or buy aftermarket coolers to compensate???
Now what do you expect is going to happen when they do this 'unlocking' the clocks non-sense and actually have increased voltages? Que the waterblock?
The 4800 series dissapoints me, because it represents ATi compromising something that was apparently very important to them, and their customers. And this 'super' bit only takes it one step further, as if saying they want the 'crown,' and they want to retain it. But at what cost?
Remember what's his face from ATi saying publically that the X2 would dominate a GTX 280?
When was the last time ATi made such a comment?
I think they've done a 180 and thrown everything they had left into this strategy to attack Nvidia while they were sleeping.
ATi doesn't have the money or resources to fight fire with fire. And I don't want to see them bowing out, because some twat executive has a personal genda to top Nvidia for several months.
by: [I.R.A]_FBi;866593Can you elaborate a bit.
this argument/line of reasoning makes no sense
again i say, heat and temperature are 2 different things.
The RV770 GPU creates a certain amount of heat during operation. The heatsink try to dissipate this heat while the fan blows air over the heatsink to allow for more heat dissipation. We measure the heat of the GPU by looking at its idle & load temps. WTH, are you just trying to make things over complicated cause I think I completely missed something. Sorry for not understanding :banghead:
the device can make a small about of heat but due to certain factors (ex poor qulaity heat sink, poor thermal interface, low fan speed) have a high temperature.
Heat and temperature are cousins but they are not a direct corellation.
The company gives you the option of increasing teh fan, there are anvenues to do so. This cannot make one company worse than the other. If the heatskin itself was woefully inadequate now that would be a cause for concern.
Heat and temperature are cousins but they are not a direct corellation.
The company gives you the option of increasing teh fan, there are anvenues to do so. This cannot make one company worse than the other. If the heatskin itself was woefully inadequate now that would be a cause for concern.
You mean the heat cause by a particular component is not necessarily directly responsible for the overall heat? Temperature is a measurement of heat technically speaking, so I'm a little unclear as to what exactly you mean also. Maybe I'm late in the convo though.
http://www.fordhamprep.org/gcurran/sho/sho/lessons/lesson17.htm
see if that helps ...
what im saying is because an item has a higher temperature does not necessarily mean it has alot of heat ... all it means is the heat is being removed at a slower rate (in this case) than the oppenents card gtx260
see if that helps ...
what im saying is because an item has a higher temperature does not necessarily mean it has alot of heat ... all it means is the heat is being removed at a slower rate (in this case) than the oppenents card gtx260
by: [I.R.A]_FBi;866754The only thing is that the fan speed directly effects how much heat the heatsinks can dissipate. If you raise the speed of the fans then you increase the airflow over the heatsink & allow for more dissipation. The coolers on the cards are fine but the fan speeds are stuck at 18%. Its just too dumb for them to have done that. The fans atleast should run at 35% & kick up to 50-60% during full GPU load.
the device can make a small about of heat but due to certain factors (ex poor qulaity heat sink, poor thermal interface, low fan speed) have a high temperature.
Heat and temperature are cousins but they are not a direct corellation.
The company gives you the option of increasing teh fan, there are anvenues to do so. This cannot make one company worse than the other. If the heatskin itself was woefully inadequate now that would be a cause for concern.
by: [I.R.A]_FBi;866766Seems kind of semantic. I think of heat varying degrees of kinetic energy in molecules (measurement being temperature) and haven't heard it referred to explicitly as the transfer of thermal energy. I don't go to class all the time though. :laugh:
http://www.fordhamprep.org/gcurran/sho/sho/lessons/lesson17.htm
see if that helps ...
what im saying is because an item has a higher temperature does not necessarily mean it has alot of heat ... all it means is the heat is being removed at a slower rate (in this case) than the oppenents card gtx260
At any rate, what is important here, the amount of "heat" on a gpu or it's temperature. What will start to cause problems?
by: farlex85;866775It is semantic & I was a physics teacher :roll:
Seems kind of semantic. I think of heat varying degrees of kinetic energy in molecules (measurement being temperature) and haven't heard it referred to explicitly as the transfer of thermal energy. I don't go to class all the time though. :laugh:
At any rate, what is important here, the amount of "heat" on a gpu or it's temperature. What will start to cause problems?
In any case, heat destroys...heat is the root of all evil :p (when it comes to silicon) Needless to say, the only thing that can give us an idea of how much heat a GPU is producing is its temps. We try to lower the temps in any way to lengthen the lives of our GPUs. Its as simple as that & its written in stone. Lower temps = happier hardware :D
by: Megasty;866791cooling performance is passive overclocking :toast:
It is semantic & I was a physics teacher :roll:
In any case, heat destroys...heat is the root of all evil :p (when it comes to silicon) Needless to say, the only thing that can give us an idea of how much heat a GPU is producing is its temps. We try to lower the temps in any way to lengthen the lives of our GPUs. Its as simple as that & its written in stone. Lower temps = happier hardware :D
the ATI cards only run hot because the fans dont crank up. its simple to fix it in a bios update, or even with software.
The heat output vs temperature argument does get funny, when people cnat keep up.
GPU + fan @ 15% = silent, but 100C
GPU + fan @ 35% = quiet, but 60C
its like how people called the 8800GT a hot card when it wasnt, the stock cooler was merely crap.
The heat output vs temperature argument does get funny, when people cnat keep up.
GPU + fan @ 15% = silent, but 100C
GPU + fan @ 35% = quiet, but 60C
its like how people called the 8800GT a hot card when it wasnt, the stock cooler was merely crap.