Lew ZealandAll Apple devices out of the box slow charge after ~80% (I think all battery-powered devices do this anyway, even NiMH rechargeable AAs do this).

The user habit bit is that Apple will delay charging past 80% based on user charging habits. Say they charge overnight every night, the phone will delay going past 80% until before you wake up and get the phone to 100% just as you wake up.

My work MacBook Pro is usually plugged in and it likes to hang at 75-80% but will occasionally charge to 100% and then run back down to 75-80% to keep the battery exercised. That's nice but I marginally prefer Dell's BIOS option of min and max charge that I just set to 50% and 85% respectively, so it just cycles between those with my regular use. I just wish I didn't need to reboot to BIOS to change it.

My old honor 9 form 2017 is doing that too. Not every night, i don't know why but usually don't charge overnight so it's not bothering me.

80-watt HamsterCitation needed.

US market share for Apple phones is 58%, Samsung 29%. They've had a +50% market share in the US for over a decade. This is really the only metric that matters because mostly all third world countries only have Android phones available at retail price for purchase. People who come to the US through visas almost all purchase Apple products when given the chance to at msrp

S13shakaUS market share for Apple phones is 58%, Samsung 29%. They've had a +50% market share in the US for over a decade. This is really the only metric that matters because mostly all third world countries only have Android phones available at retail price for purchase. People who come to the US through visas almost all purchase Apple products when given the chance to at msrp

58% means that 42% +-1% are Android. You said "very few people buy Android phones". My bias detector is flaring up.

S13shakaPeople who come to the US through visas almost all purchase Apple products when given the chance to at msrp

Like he said citation needed.

S13shakaThey've had a +50% market share in the US for over a decade.

The China+India markets combined are anywhere between 4-5x US in volumes & probably 1.5-2.5x in terms of $ sales. So no it's not that important as you think, although Apple has a huge share in China as well.

AusWolfBecause it wasn't always a repair job, and it shouldn't be. Ever since the mobile phone was invented, except for the last few years, you could pop your battery out and put in a new one for a few quid. Repair shops ask for way more money than that. Let them do what they're meant to do: repair things that are actually broken, and not ask for the price of a new phone only to do a battery swap.

My Galaxy S6 lasted me 3 years before its battery died. I've gone through 2 other phones since then. If that battery hadn't died, I would still have the S6, because it's a fine phone otherwise. Now tell me this isn't wasteful.


There's just one small problem. Do you see any phone with a replaceable battery these days? I don't, but I would love to. Sometimes companies go way overboard with their bullshit, and consumers need to be defended. This is one such case.

Edit: Why do you put so much trust in a company (any company) whose only purpose to exist is to take your money?

Technology makes advancements all the time and the consumer decides with their wallet whether said advancements are worth their investment. Based on your logic everyone should be driving Flintstone cars. Im sorry battery swaps cost so much in the EU, that problem doesnt exist in the US I can have a new iPhone battery put in my Apple product for <$150 regularly.

Ooof that sounds like an Android problem you are trying to extrapolate over to Apple smartphones, maybe you should try owning one instead of committing regular E-waste. I've only had two smartphones (iPhones) in the last 9 years.

If you have such a burning onus to make a smartphone with a removeable battery, start a company and build your own, don't tell others how to build their products.

AusWolf58% means that 42% +-1% are Android. You said "very few people buy Android phones". My bias detector is flaring up.

Yes 60% means roughly for two Iphone sales for one Android purchase. Apple has a 3 Trillion dollar market cap.

R0H1TLike he said citation needed.

The China+India markets combined are anywhere between 4-5x US in volumes & probably 1.5-2.5x in terms of $ sales. So no it's not that important as you think, although Apple has a huge share in China as well.

I work directly with people who come to the US to work on J1 visas, without fault almost all show up to work with a new Iphone after their first paycheck.

The iPhone 14 sells for almost a 1000 USD in India, so no using them as a metric would be incorrect because that is a major luxury item in a mostly third world country.

S13shakaTechnology makes advancements all the time and the consumer decides with their wallet whether said advancements are worth their investment.

Change doesn't equal progress. Not everything is done for the consumer's benefit. Corporate greed is not a myth.

There is not a single smartphone with a replaceable battery that I could get right now brand new, with a UK warranty. Not one. So tell me, how do I vote with my wallet? Hm?

S13shakaIm sorry battery swaps cost so much in the EU, that problem doesnt exist in the US I can have a new iPhone battery put in my Apple product for <$150 regularly.

$150? That's the price of a new phone! Wait, I forgot you were talking about iPhones! Of course your iBattery must cost way more than my shitty regular phone that's only good for everything yours is good for! :rolleyes:

S13shakaOoof that sounds like an Android problem you are trying to extrapolate over to Apple smartphones, maybe you should try owning one instead of committing regular E-waste.

How is your iPhone less of an e-waste than my Android one? It's gonna end up on a trash heap when its battery goes just like mine.

Edit: Anyway, no, thank you. I don't like the lack of compatibility with other products, I don't like the ecosystem, I don't like the lack of customizability, and I very much don't like the arrogant fanbase.

S13shakaIf you have such a burning onus to make a smartphone with a removeable battery, start a company and build your own, don't tell others how to build their products.

Sure, give me the money for it, and I'll start one. Until then, I tell these companies whatever I want. I'm their customer, after all, not the other way around.

Edit: The question still stands. Why are you defending a company whose only interest in the matter is to take your money?

AusWolfChange doesn't equal progress. Not everything is done for the consumer's benefit. Corporate greed is not a myth.

There is not a single smartphone with a replaceable battery that I could get right now brand new, with a UK warranty. Not one. So tell me, how do I vote with my wallet? Hm?


$150? That's the price of a new phone! Wait, I forgot you were talking about iPhones! Of course your iBattery must cost way more than my shitty regular phone that's only good for everything yours is good for! :rolleyes:


How is your iPhone less of an e-waste than my Android one? It's gonna end up on a trash heap when its battery goes just like mine.


Sure, give me the money for it, and I'll start one. Until then, I tell these companies whatever I want. I'm their customer, after all, not the other way around.

Edit: The question still stands. Why are you defending a company whose only interest in the matter is to take your money?

Regulation does not always equal progress either, it's a misnomer to assume both free market decisions and regulatory ones to be 100% correct and factual. Have faith in none and question every motive.

You vote with your wallet by not buying a smartphone, if your first world privilege is too much to give up then that's your problem and no one else, literally no one forces anyone to buy smartphones.

I'm confused with your issue with how much battery replacements cost, I'm not sure you understand how basic economics work in terms of producing a product, the cost of said production, and the price needed to be sold at to be profitable. A $150 smartphone or dumbphone cant do the same things or have anywhere near the build quality as an expensive smartphone so not sure your point on that either.

iPhones are less of e-waste than Android phones because they all have 5 years minimum of committed software and security updates. I have friends still rocking iPhone 6's and XR's due to this feature.

No thank you I wouldnt give my money to someone who complains about stuff and takes zero action. Companies dont care about your words either, the only color they see is green.

S13shakaYou vote with your wallet by not buying a smartphone, if your first world privilege is too much to give up then that's your problem and no one else, literally no one forces anyone to buy smartphones.

Actually, many people are required to own a smartphone. My employer requires I own a smartphone. They will pay $40 a month towards the cost of a personal phone/plan, or they will provide one for you. I guess I'm not forced to buy one because I can work somewhere else, but in my career field, it is pretty much a requirement anywhere.

S13shakaRegulation does not always equal progress either, it's a misnomer to assume both free market decisions and regulatory ones to be 100% correct and factual. Have faith in none and question every motive.

I do have faith in no one and question every motive. And I do want replaceable batteries. Always have. So this regulation suits me just fine, thanks.

Why don't you question phone companies' motives for not letting you replace your battery? Where is your faith placed?

S13shakaYou vote with your wallet by not buying a smartphone, if your first world privilege is too much to give up then that's your problem and no one else, literally no one forces anyone to buy smartphones.

What a brilliant idea! I've just got to tell all my co-workers and my boss to f**k right off, as I won't be able to respond to WhatsApp group announcements anymore. How did I not think about this before? :rolleyes:

Smartphones can also be work tools and actual communication devices, not just shiny things in your hand to feel smug about, you know.

S13shakaI'm confused with your issue with how much battery replacements cost, I'm not sure you understand how basic economics work in terms of producing a product, the cost of said production, and the price needed to be sold at to be profitable. A $150 smartphone or dumbphone cant do the same things or have anywhere near the build quality as an expensive smartphone so not sure your point on that either.

It has a CPU that runs apps, a 5G transceiver, it has a screen with Gorilla glass, a speaker, a microphone, and even a camera or two. What more do you want?

My point is, I'm not paying the amount of money that my phone costs for a battery replacement, when I could just buy a battery for 20 quid. Oh wait, I can't! There's the problem that this regulation aims to solve.

S13shakaiPhones are less of e-waste than Android phones because they all have 5 years minimum of committed software and security updates. I have friends still rocking iPhone 6's and XR's due to this feature.

Because a phone won't even start without software updates for sure. ;)

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question: Why are you defending a for-profit company that wants your money? Also, how do replaceable batteries harm you?

Before you reply to my comments, answer these two questions, please. I'm really curious.

ZareekActually, many people are required to own a smartphone. My employer requires I own a smartphone. They will pay $40 a month towards the cost of a personal phone/plan, or they will provide one for you. I guess I'm not forced to buy one because I can work somewhere else, but in my career field, it is pretty much a requirement anywhere.

None of your employers would require smartphones if no employees purchased them, they only "require" them because they know people will do what they say for a paycheck, which you've just literally proved.

AusWolfI do have faith in no one and question every motive. And I do want replaceable batteries. Always have. So this regulation suits me just fine, thanks.

Why don't you question phone companies' motives for not letting you replace your battery? Where is your faith placed?


What a brilliant idea! I've just got to tell all my co-workers and my boss to f**k right off, as I won't be able to respond to WhatsApp group announcements anymore. How did I not think about this before? :rolleyes:

Smartphones can also be work tools and actual communication devices, not just shiny things in your hand to feel smug about, you know.


It has a CPU that runs apps, a 5G transceiver, it has a screen with Gorilla glass, a speaker, a microphone, and even a camera or two. What more do you want?

My point is, I'm not paying the amount of money that my phone costs for a battery replacement, when I could just buy a battery for 20 quid. Oh wait, I can't! There's the problem that this regulation aims to solve.


Because a phone won't even start without software updates for sure. ;)

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question: Why are you defending a for-profit company that wants your money? Also, how do replaceable batteries harm you?

Before you reply to my comments, answer these two questions, please. I'm really curious.

I dont care about replaceable batteries in phones as such I could care less about what companies do about it. I dont have any issue with owning an iPhone long term because security and software updates will be there and battery replacements are cheap. Apple does not have the same E-waste issue with it's customer base that Android has with theirs. I fail to understand what having a new battery in a phone that is bricked by the OS accomplishes.

You are clearly proving my point that your crusade for "replaceable batteries" falls apart when your first world privilege gets stripped away by actually voting with your wallet, not just saying you will and doing the opposite. I know practicing what you preach and setting examples is tough when group think has you and most of the internet paralyzed

I mean if you cant understand why someone would pay $500 for a flagship smartphone as opposed to one costing $150 then you will never understand why you can't escape the e-waste you create.

If you put a new battery in a phone the updates start though so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that? This is why you pay a shop to do the service for you.

Also no one is defending Apple, this is a defense for a free market economy.

S13shakaNone of your employers would require smartphones if no employees purchased them, they only "require" them because they know people will do what they say for a paycheck, which you've just literally proved.

So now I've also got to tell all my co-workers and my boss to throw away their smartphones and never buy one again. Your ideas are getting weirder and weirder, my dude. :kookoo:

S13shakaI dont care about replaceable batteries in phones as such I could care less about what companies do about it. I dont have any issue with owning an iPhone long term because security and software updates will be there and battery replacements are cheap. Apple does not have the same E-waste issue with it's customer base that Android has with theirs. I fail to understand what having a new battery in a phone that is bricked by the OS accomplishes.

Who said you've got a bricked OS? Just because you don't receive OS patches anymore, it doesn't mean your phone is unusable.
Heck, I would still use my 11 year-old Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini Pro if it wasn't severely restricted by RAM and storage. Or my Galaxy S6 if its battery hadn't died.

What do you mean "battery replacements are cheap"? If you consider $150 cheap, when ideally, you could do the process yourself for 20, then I believe I'm not the one speaking with first world privilege.

S13shakaYou are clearly proving my point that your crusade for "replaceable batteries" falls apart when your first world privilege gets stripped away by actually voting with your wallet, not just saying you will and doing the opposite. I know practicing what you preach and setting examples is tough when group think has you and most of the internet paralyzed

Shame on me for having to stay in contact with my co-workers and my boss and having no chance of doing it on a phone that I'd consider ideal. What a terrible human being I am, really! :kookoo:

Edit: You misunderstand my argument. I firmly believe that there's a lot to improve on modern smartphones in certain aspects (for example, replaceable batteries). This does not mean that I oppose the idea of smartphones in general.

S13shakaI mean if you cant understand why someone would pay $500 for a flagship smartphone as opposed to one costing $150 then you will never understand why you can't escape the e-waste you create.

If you can prove how a $500 phone is less of an e-waste than a $150 one, then I'll give you the point on this one. Don't bring up software updates, we all know they're not strictly necessary to use a phone.

S13shakaIf you put a new battery in a phone the updates start though so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that? This is why you pay a shop to do the service for you.

What updates? Why would I pay a shop if I could do it myself for free? Again, you're not making sense.

S13shakaAlso no one is defending Apple, this is a defense for a free market economy.

Fair enough. And mine is a defense of customer rights against corporate greed. If government intervention is needed to let customers exercise a higher degree of freedom to maintain their own devices (which is objectively a good thing), then so be it.

So now I've also got to tell all my co-workers and my boss to throw away their smartphones and never buy one again. Your ideas are getting weirder and weirder, my dude. :kookoo:

Why would you put the onus of voting with your wallet on the people around you instead of yourself? They aren't the ones that have issues with replaceable batteries.

Who said you've got a bricked OS? Just because you don't receive OS patches anymore, it doesn't mean your phone is unusable.
Heck, I would still use my 11 year-old Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini Pro if it wasn't severely restricted by RAM and storage. Or my Galaxy S6 if its battery hadn't died.

Smartphones become unusable when security and OS updates stop due to application updates needing latest versions of software. This isnt an issue with iOS due to its minimum 5 year support, Android on the other hand is a bricked OS when the phone manufacturer stops pushing updates to said phone. I literally use my iPhone 7 as a small tablet (released in 2016) which runs every app fine due to actual continued OS support, thinking there is a limit on ram or storage is an Android only issue.

What do you mean "battery replacements are cheap"? If you consider $150 cheap, when ideally, you could do the process yourself for 20, then I believe I'm not the one speaking with first world privilege.

That's like saying don't take your car ever to a mechanic because it's always cheaper to do yourself where as others have no issue paying for the service. How much money is your time worth? For some, more or less than others.

Shame on me for having to stay in contact with my co-workers and my boss and having no chance of doing it on a phone that I'd consider ideal. What a terrible human being I am, really! :kookoo:

Yes shame on you expecting others to deal with the responsibility of having a dumbphone as opposed to you yourself taking on the crusade alone, finding a different job that doesnt require one, and making an actual sacrifice with your wallet for the line you're drawing in the sand.

Edit: You misunderstand my argument. I firmly believe that there's a lot to improve on modern smartphones in certain aspects (for example, replaceable batteries). This does not mean that I oppose the idea of smartphones in general.

Except that if replaceable batteries we're an improvement they would have happened by now. No company has gone that route because it's clearly not profitable.

If you can prove how a $500 phone is less of an e-waste than a $150 one, then I'll give you the point on this one. Don't bring up software updates, we all know they're not strictly necessary to use a phone.

We apply this thought process to GPUs and computers all the time so I'm not sure why it's difficult for you to understand why certain products at different price points offer different levels of value.

Since when is software not necessary to use a computer?

What updates? Why would I pay a shop if I could do it myself for free? Again, you're not making sense.

iPhones have continued software support 5 years minimum so after replacing the battery in them, you turn it back on and your phone continues updates. I dont know why you would pay a shop to update your phone either after they replace the battery in it

Fair enough. And mine is a defense of customer rights against corporate greed. If government intervention is needed to let customers exercise a higher degree of freedom to maintain their own devices (which is objectively a good thing), then so be it.

Government intervention is not needed though. You just refuse to vote with your wallet and expect to have your cake and eat it too. As such companies will do what they please because the consumer (you) continues to give them money and thusly they have zero implication to change the product because you keep buying it.

This is embarrassing… I’ve seen a lot of free market diehards on all sorts of forums but yeesh

it’s the consumer’s responsibility to pressure corporations but they should not appeal to fellow consumers or even engage in social exchange with those that disagree with them!

Apple is awesome because of their lts but android is dumb even though you can install a different os on it and receive updates after the terms of licensed support!

it’s a consumers choice how much they invest in repairs therefore your choice is bad!

replacing a replaceable battery requires technical knowledge like getting your car repaired!

Individual choices are totally autonomous and have no effect on others! Get a new job you Luddite!

What is most profitable for a corporation is also the pinnacle of innovation!

A $500 GPU will become e-waste in less time than a similarly supported product at a lower price! This obviously correlated with my iPhone argument about support!

You continue to exist and question the nature of your existence! If you really wanted autonomy you’d just kill yourself lol! Talk about based hahaha

/amateur hour

S13shakaSmartphones become unusable when security and OS updates stop due to application updates needing latest versions of software. This isnt an issue with iOS due to its minimum 5 year support, Android on the other hand is a bricked OS when the phone manufacturer stops pushing updates to said phone. I literally use my iPhone 7 as a small tablet (released in 2016) which runs every app fine due to actual continued OS support, thinking there is a limit on ram or storage is an Android only issue.

My actual phone is a Honor 9 from 2017 with the last security update from 2021, the OS is Android 9, a version release during 2018. All my apps are working perfectly, the majority of app require android 5 or 6 at least to work, so really, software isn't the issue at all. Learn to be more cautious about thing you don't know, or make some research first.

AusWolfThere is not a single smartphone with a replaceable battery that I could get right now brand new, with a UK warranty. Not one. So tell me, how do I vote with my wallet? Hm?

Your only choice are terracube, fairphone, or the samsung Xcover series. I don't know if there is other brand or series that have repleacable battery, but yeah the choice is poor.
I'm tempted to change my honor 9 with a fairphone during this year, i hope they will release a fairphone 5 before 2024.

S13shakaWhy would you put the onus of voting with your wallet on the people around you instead of yourself? They aren't the ones that have issues with replaceable batteries.

I voted with my wallet. I need a smartphone in my daily life. That doesn't mean I have to automatically love everything about current-day smartphones, does it?

S13shakaSmartphones become unusable when security and OS updates stop due to application updates needing latest versions of software. This isnt an issue with iOS due to its minimum 5 year support, Android on the other hand is a bricked OS when the phone manufacturer stops pushing updates to said phone. I literally use my iPhone 7 as a small tablet (released in 2016) which runs every app fine due to actual continued OS support, thinking there is a limit on ram or storage is an Android only issue.

WhatsApp, Viber and my banking app all need Android 5.0 to run which was released 9 years ago. Even my much older Xperia Mini Pro got the update. Web browsing is still an option, too.

You've got your head so far up Apple's backside that you haven't got a clue how Android phones work, or what software updates are about.

S13shakaThat's like saying don't take your car ever to a mechanic because it's always cheaper to do yourself where as others have no issue paying for the service. How much money is your time worth? For some, more or less than others.

No. It's like saying you don't take your car to a mechanic to fill up your windscreen washer fluid, or to check your oil level. If car manufacturers invented a sealable washer tank cap that only a mechanic could open, and they charged $50 for a top-up, would you consider it "progress"?

Edit: Have you had a phone with a changeable battery in your life? Or any battery operated device at all? A TV remote, or wireless mouse, maybe? Doing the change takes less than a minute and requires no skill. It's half a page in any manual, with diagrams. Don't tell me that the time it takes you to go to the repair shop and waiting for the work to be done instead is worth paying for.

S13shakaYes shame on you expecting others to deal with the responsibility of having a dumbphone as opposed to you yourself taking on the crusade alone, finding a different job that doesnt require one, and making an actual sacrifice with your wallet for the line you're drawing in the sand.

I was being sarcastic, but I guess it wasn't obvious. I don't expect anyone to do anything. Like I said, I need a smartphone, and I have one. I like the idea of replaceable batteries, but not having it is not a dealbreaker. This new EU law is a welcome plus. That's all.

S13shakaExcept that if replaceable batteries we're an improvement they would have happened by now. No company has gone that route because it's clearly not profitable.

They did happen on literally every single phone until circa 2015. Profit doesn't equal progress, far from it. That's what free market capitalism got wrong.

Edit: Do you like the idea of paying up to $70 for a game and then $5 for every single one of the tens and hundreds of small DLCs that come after it? Or subscription plans for offline games? Because some people call that progress, too.

S13shakaWe apply this thought process to GPUs and computers all the time so I'm not sure why it's difficult for you to understand why certain products at different price points offer different levels of value.

Since when is software not necessary to use a computer?

I don't apply the same thought process on GPUs. The longevity of your computer parts is down to the same factor as the longevity of your phone: what you use it for. A GPU from 2016 will play games from 2016 just like it did in 2016. You don't need up to date software for that.

S13shakaiPhones have continued software support 5 years minimum so after replacing the battery in them, you turn it back on and your phone continues updates. I dont know why you would pay a shop to update your phone either after they replace the battery in it

I don't pay a shop for software updates. My phone does it on its own. If I can replace my battery myself (just like I could until 2015), then I don't need to pay for that, either. How is that not a win?

S13shakaGovernment intervention is not needed though. You just refuse to vote with your wallet and expect to have your cake and eat it too. As such companies will do what they please because the consumer (you) continues to give them money and thusly they have zero implication to change the product because you keep buying it.

Like I said, I buy it because I don't have another choice. Having a dumb phone isn't very practical these days, is it? Why do I have to explain myself twice?

KyanMy actual phone is a Honor 9 from 2017 with the last security update from 2021, the OS is Android 9, a version release during 2018. All my apps are working perfectly, the majority of app require android 5 or 6 at least to work, so really, software isn't the issue at all. Learn to be more cautious about thing you don't know, or make some research first.

There are over 24,000 unique Android smartphone and tablet devices for sale currently, your sample size is a single phone purchased from one company.

I voted with my wallet. I need a smartphone in my daily life. That doesn't mean I have to automatically love everything about current-day smartphones, does it?

Beggars cant be choosers

WhatsApp, Viber and my banking app all need Android 5.0 to run which was released 9 years ago. Even my much older Xperia Mini Pro got the update. Web browsing is still an option, too.

Okay?

You've got your head so far up Apple's backside that you haven't got a clue how Android phones work, or what software updates are about.

Hmmm yes I love the assumption that I have zero experience and technical know how with electronic products and multiple operating systems. Do go on!

No. It's like saying you don't take your car to a mechanic to fill up your windscreen washer fluid, or to check your oil level. If car manufacturers invented a sealable washer tank cap that only a mechanic could open, and they charged $50 for a top-up, would you consider it "progress"?

Plenty of people take their cars to mechanics for those basic things though, you're assuming a much broader technical know how for the population that does not exist. Your example does not make any sense either because the hood already does the sealing. As such the company would have to provide enough data showing the consumer why they should spend money on their solution as opposed to others available on the market.

Edit: Have you had a phone with a changeable battery in your life? Or any battery operated device at all? A TV remote, or wireless mouse, maybe? Doing the change takes less than a minute and requires no skill. It's half a page in any manual, with diagrams. Don't tell me that the time it takes you to go to the repair shop and waiting for the work to be done instead is worth paying for.

I dont compare electronics blindly across the board. Transistor count, pcb population, and form factor matter.

I was being sarcastic, but I guess it wasn't obvious. I don't expect anyone to do anything. Like I said, I need a smartphone, and I have one. I like the idea of replaceable batteries, but not having it is not a dealbreaker. This new EU law is a welcome plus. That's all.

Most people today are like yourself, talks the talk but does not walk the walk.

They did happen on literally every single phone until circa 2015. Profit doesn't equal progress, far from it. That's what free market capitalism got wrong.

No one said profit equals progress though, free markets merely dictate winners and losers with people making the decision using their wallets. Why do you think Intel magically started producing 4+ core parts after Ryzen dropped? Competition breeds innovation and who wins is decided by who buys their product.

Edit: Do you like the idea of paying up to $70 for a game and then $5 for every single one of the tens and hundreds of small DLCs that come after it? Or subscription plans for offline games? Because some people call that progress, too.

You continue to miss the point. No one is forcing you to buy the $70 game.

I don't apply the same thought process on GPUs. The longevity of your computer parts is down to the same factor as the longevity of your phone: what you use it for. A GPU from 2016 will play games from 2016 just like it did in 2016. You don't need up to date software for that.

Right because a 1030gt will age the same as a 1080ti (sarcasm)

I don't pay a shop for software updates. My phone does it on its own. If I can replace my battery myself (just like I could until 2015), then I don't need to pay for that, either. How is that not a win?

It's a win if you want it because a company has a phone with that feature for sale for you to buy. It's a loss to actively make every smartphone product conform to said standards.

Like I said, I buy it because I don't have another choice. Having a dumb phone isn't very practical these days, is it? Why do I have to explain myself twice?

You do have a choice you just choose to not exercise it. Blaming others for your own shortcomings isnt everyone else's fault.

S13shakaThere are over 24,000 unique Android smartphone and tablet devices for sale currently, your sample size is a single phone purchased from one company.

Fine, show us a phone from 2017 that can't run modern apps.

S13shakaBeggars cant be choosers

Thanks to the new regulation, they can be.

S13shakaHmmm yes I love the assumption that I have zero experience and technical know how with electronic products and multiple operating systems. Do go on!

I base that assumption on your comments. I'm happy to accept that you know your things about Android phones, but so far, you've shown the contrary by demonstrating your belief that they're unusable without software updates, and that they don't last 5 years for that reason, which is completely wrong.

S13shakaPlenty of people take their cars to mechanics for those basic things though, you're assuming a much broader technical know how for the population that does not exist. Your example does not make any sense either because the hood already does the sealing. As such the company would have to provide enough data showing the consumer why they should spend money on their solution as opposed to others available on the market.

If you take your car to a mechanic to top up your washer fluid, that's on you because you don't have to. It's your choice - and that's the point! I like having that choice and deciding for myself. And no, the hood doesn't seal anything as long as you pop it open by pulling a latch, which is pretty much the same thing you do on any device with changeable batteries. It's even included in the user's manual as a normal operation.

S13shakaI dont compare electronics blindly across the board. Transistor count, pcb population, and form factor matter.

That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand.

S13shakaMost people today are like yourself, talks the talk but does not walk the walk.

What walk? See my comment above. I'd much rather have a sealed phone than no phone at all, but if I have a choice, I'll have one with a changeable battery. Smartphones are good, but having that choice is even better. There's no walk to be walked here.

S13shakaNo one said profit equals progress though, free markets merely dictate winners and losers with people making the decision using their wallets. Why do you think Intel magically started producing 4+ core parts after Ryzen dropped? Competition breeds innovation and who wins is decided by who buys their product.

Well, phone manufacturers don't seem to be competing on the serviceability front, that's for sure. And when there's no competition on a free market, the only question is how much does the consumer lose. A lot, or even more? Because the consumer is always the loser unless we have regulations in place to protect them.

S13shakaYou continue to miss the point. No one is forcing you to buy the $70 game.

That's right, and I'm not buying any game for such price. But please, do try to live a normal life without a smartphone, just for a month. I dare you! ;)

Staying with the game analogy, you seem to be thinking that sealed smartphones are like a shit game to me that I bought and now I'm complaining. In fact, they're more like a fine game with a not so pleasing ending, that I enjoyed playing, but now that they're making a new ending, I'm even happier.

S13shakaRight because a 1030gt will age the same as a 1080ti (sarcasm)

I have a 1030 that I use for playing videos in a HTPC, and it's doing just fine, thanks. ;) See my point above: how well a part ages is hugely determined by what you use it for.

S13shakaIt's a win if you want it because a company has a phone with that feature for sale for you to buy. It's a loss to actively make every smartphone product conform to said standards.

Whose loss is it? Yours?

S13shakaYou do have a choice you just choose to not exercise it. Blaming others for your own shortcomings isnt everyone else's fault.

I also have a choice of jumping out of the window, that I'd rather not exercise if possible. You're very funny, indeed. (sarcasm - see my point above for a normal answer)

Edit: I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm just welcoming a new regulation that will make phone maintenance as easy as it used to be merely a decade ago. That's all.

Fine, show us a phone from 2017 that can't run modern apps.

Google locked group SMS texts on Motorola phones for sometime due to the company not pushing through OS security updates. How many more arbitrary examples would you like to prove my point?

Thanks to the new regulation, they can be.

Nah, beggars can never be choosers.

I base that assumption on your comments. I'm happy to accept that you know your things about Android phones, but so far, you've shown the contrary by demonstrating your belief that they're unusable without software updates, and that they don't last 5 years for that reason, which is completely wrong.

LOL I forgot that you're the arbiter of Android LOL, nobody cares about your standards of information (aka your opinion)

If you take your car to a mechanic to top up your washer fluid, that's on you because you don't have to. It's your choice - and that's the point! I like having that choice and deciding for myself. And no, the hood doesn't seal anything as long as you pop it open by pulling a latch, which is pretty much the same thing you do on any device with changeable batteries. It's even included in the user's manual as a normal operation.

Exactly. It's the consumer's choice to take their car, not the government mandating they have to.

That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Youre the one that compared a smartphone to a remote control and mouse, of which one is exponentially more complex than the other two.

What walk? See my comment above. I'd much rather have a sealed phone than no phone at all, but if I have a choice, I'll have one with a changeable battery. Smartphones are good, but having that choice is even better. There's no walk to be walked here.

I understand it's difficult to not realize that you have to put your money where your mouth is, otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Correct, choice made by the consumer in a free market, not a government body telling companies how to sell said products to them.

Well, phone manufacturers don't seem to be competing on the serviceability front, that's for sure. And when there's no competition on a free market, the only question is how much does the consumer lose. A lot, or even more? Because the consumer is always the loser unless we have regulations in place to protect them.

Incorrect, at the end of the day the consumer holds all the power, if no one is spending, companies go bankrupt, it's a very simple business model to grasp.

That's right, and I'm not buying any game for such price. But please, do try to live a normal life without a smartphone, just for a month. I dare you! ;)

I dont have any issue giving up my smartphone, especially if it means voting with my wallet for something I believe in, This concept goes over your head though.

Staying with the game analogy, you seem to be thinking that sealed smartphones are like a shit game to me that I bought and now I'm complaining. In fact, they're more like a fine game with a not so pleasing ending, that I enjoyed playing, but now that they're making a new ending, I'm even happier.

I have literally no idea what you're saying.

I have a 1030 that I use for playing videos in a HTPC, and it's doing just fine, thanks. ;) See my point above: how well a part ages is hugely determined by what you use it for.

Clearly, but that is besides the point, and an arbitrary one at best.

I also have a choice of jumping out of the window, that I'd rather not exercise if possible. You're very funny, indeed. (sarcasm - see my point above for a normal answer)

Edit: I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm just welcoming a new regulation that will make phone maintenance as easy as it used to be merely a decade ago. That's all.

Correct you have the choice, not the government making the choice for you. This is not a difficult concept to understand. Also you are clearly only pointing fingers because actual action would be a bridge too far for you.

S13shakaGoogle locked group SMS texts on Motorola phones for sometime due to the company not pushing through OS security updates. How many more arbitrary examples would you like to prove my point?

You've got one example. Awesome.

S13shakaExactly. It's the consumer's choice to take their car, not the government mandating they have to.

Except you don't have any choice if your car is sealed. I want that choice.

S13shakaYoure the one that compared a smartphone to a remote control and mouse, of which one is exponentially more complex than the other two.

A battery swap is a battery swap regardless. It's got nothing to do with the rest of the internals.

S13shakaI understand it's difficult to not realize that you have to put your money where your mouth is, otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Correct, choice made by the consumer in a free market, not a government body telling companies how to sell said products to them.

So the government mandating car manufacturers to design roofs that support the whole weight of the vehicle in case of a rollover collision is pure bullshit. Maybe they should allow cars to be less safe, and let the consumer decide whether they want to spend money on such obviously optional extras. :rolleyes:

Or the US government mandating the use of reverse cameras because the average American obviously can't drive.

S13shakaIncorrect, at the end of the day the consumer holds all the power, if no one is spending, companies go bankrupt, it's a very simple business model to grasp.

Except that business model is not that simple. When a product is great, but comes with certain pre-designed flaws, 99% of consumers will buy it and disregard the flaws. If you only have to buy a new phone every 5 or so years (instead of just a new battery), your mind doesn't think about it as overspending because you don't usually think 5 years ahead. It's all psychology. Most business models of these megacorporations are designed around exploiting the flaws of human psychology, not around giving you something more every year like they'd like you to believe. Thinking that the consumer has the ultimate voice, and they're not gullible enough not to exercise it, is a very naïve standpoint.

You put far too much faith in corporate goodwill (which doesn't exist), and the mental capabilities of the average consumer.

S13shakaI dont have any issue giving up my smartphone, especially if it means voting with my wallet for something I believe in, This concept goes over your head though.

Because you know what I believe in, obviously. So do tell me, please. What do I believe in that I'm failing at?

S13shakaI have literally no idea what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that I'm not against smartphones. If I have to buy one that's sealed, I'm okay with that, as I don't overspend on my phones anyway. But if a new regulation mandates replaceable batteries, that's even better for me. With low to mid-range phones, I win anyway, but with replaceable batteries, I win even more. I'm not fighting a crusade for or against anything. I'm just happy for the new law.

S13shakaClearly, but that is besides the point, and an arbitrary one at best.

Fair enough. All I'm saying is, replaceable batteries extend the possible lifetime of your phone. You're not losing anything.

S13shakaCorrect you have the choice, not the government making the choice for you. This is not a difficult concept to understand. Also you are clearly only pointing fingers because actual action would be a bridge too far for you.

What action? Like I said, I'm not fighting for anything or blaming anyone. I'm just happy for the new law because it makes my life (and that of millions of others) easier. Is this really so hard to comprehend?

You've got one example. Awesome.

Correct, any number of examples is arbitrary.

Except you don't have any choice if your car is sealed. I want that choice.

You have choice in a free market, no choice if the government mandates it.

A battery swap is a battery swap regardless. It's got nothing to do with the rest of the internals.

So based on your logic swapping a battery in any device or item is the same procedure across the board, LOL

So the government mandating car manufacturers to design roofs that support the whole weight of the vehicle in case of a rollover collision is pure bullshit. Maybe they should allow cars to be less safe, and let the consumer decide whether they want to spend money on such obviously optional extras. :rolleyes:

Or the US government mandating the use of reverse cameras because the average American obviously can't drive.

A car company designs a car to be safe otherwise they will go bankrupt due to no sales and lawsuits. I want engineers to decide how to create a product, not politicians.

Except that business model is not that simple. When a product is great, but comes with certain pre-designed flaws, 99% of consumers will buy it and disregard the flaws. If you only have to buy a new phone every 5 or so years (instead of just a new battery), your mind doesn't think about it as overspending because you don't usually think 5 years ahead. It's all psychology. Most business models of these megacorporations are designed around exploiting the flaws of human psychology, not around giving you something more every year like they'd like you to believe. Thinking that the consumer has the ultimate voice, and they're not gullible enough not to exercise it, is a very naïve standpoint.

The term boycott exists for a reason, see Bud Light and Call of Duty as examples.

You put far too much faith in corporate goodwill (which doesn't exist), and the mental capabilities of the average consumer.

Wrong, I believe in a free market economy which isnt influenced by government intervention.

Because you know what I believe in, obviously. So do tell me, please. What do I believe in that I'm failing at?

I dont care.

What I'm saying is that I'm not against smartphones. If I have to buy one that's sealed, I'm okay with that, as I don't overspend on my phones anyway. But if a new regulation mandates replaceable batteries, that's even better for me. With low to mid-range phones, I win anyway, but with replaceable batteries, I win even more. I'm not fighting a crusade for or against anything. I'm just happy for the new law.

This is an assumption and opinion.

Fair enough. All I'm saying is, replaceable batteries extend the possible lifetime of your phone. You're not losing anything.

That's fairly obvious that putting a new battery in something extends it's life, also completely superfluous.

What action? Like I said, I'm not fighting for anything or blaming anyone. I'm just happy for the new law because it makes my life (and that of millions of others) easier. Is this really so hard to comprehend?

That's your opinion.

S13shakaCorrect, any number of examples is arbitrary.

So having only one example is perfectly fine as long as it's yours, but it's not enough when it's someone else's. Right.

S13shakaYou have choice in a free market, no choice if the government mandates it.

Corporations have a choice in a free market. Choice to make their products shit, so that I'll have to buy it again and again.

S13shakaSo based on your logic swapping a battery in any device or item is the same procedure across the board, LOL

Have you ever owned a phone with a changeable battery? Do you have any idea how effortless the process is?

Edit: I've just timed how long it takes to do a battery swap on my Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini Pro, including taking off the back panel, taking the battery out, putting it back in, and replacing the back panel. Guess what? 11 seconds.

S13shakaA car company designs a car to be safe otherwise they will go bankrupt due to no sales and lawsuits. I want engineers to decide how to create a product, not politicians.

"Under section 571.216 of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, all covered vehicles must be tested for roof structure integrity. In such a test, the left and right sides of the roof must each be able to handle 1.5 times the weight of the unloaded vehicle." - written by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Department of Transportation. That is, politicians. US politicians.

S13shakaThe term boycott exists for a reason, see Bud Light and Call of Duty as examples.

Except for 99% of consumers, myself included, don't care enough to boycott smartphones over the issue of battery changes. I'm just happy for the new regulation.

S13shakaWrong, I believe in a free market economy which isnt influenced by government intervention.

You're free to believe in whatever you want. I believe in customer rights and the common good. I also believe that a completely free market ends up with the total exploitation of the consumer. I also believe that this is Europe, and if our politicians decide to make some law to curb corporate greed for the interest of common European people, then they're damn f**king right to do so! I only wish they did it a bit more often.

S13shakaI dont care.

Then don't comment on it.

S13shakaThis is an assumption and opinion.

Yes it is. So what?

S13shakaThat's fairly obvious that putting a new battery in something extends it's life, also completely superfluous.

If it's fairly obvious, then why is it a problem? Why are you so butthurt by the fact that you will have more chance to maintain your phone and keep it longer if you want to?

S13shakaThat's your opinion.

No, it's not. The ability to replace your battery will make phone maintenance easier for you as well. If you don't want to live with this option, you're still free to throw your phone away whenever you feel like.

Holy cow, this went off the rails fast!

S13shakaNone of your employers would require smartphones if no employees purchased them, they only "require" them because they know people will do what they say for a paycheck, which you've just literally proved.

Really, I'm sure we could do six different OTP codes without it. I can imagine fumbling around with half a dozen hardware tokens instead, that would be great!

ZareekHoly cow, this went off the rails fast!

Yeah, right? :ohwell:

I'm not even sure if saying anything else would make any difference at this point. If someone thinks having more consumer freedom is a bad thing, then they're either delusional, or hold too many shares in Apple.

AusWolfYeah, right? :ohwell:

I'm not even sure if saying anything else would make any difference at this point. If someone thinks having more consumer freedom is a bad thing, then they're either delusional, or hold too many shares in Apple.

Not the latter, or they wouldn't advocate Apple chopping off at least $30 Billion a year of revenue just to prove a point.

AusWolfIf someone thinks having more consumer freedom is a bad thing, then they're either delusional, or hold too many shares in Apple.

This. My vote is for the first option.