candle_86and i understand it fine, but i also understand this, MS is headquatered in Seattle Washington thats the US. Meaning they are under the jurisdiction of the US Government not the EU. If Europe would like to continue there use of MS products i would suggest they replace there leaders with a somewhat capitlist minded bunch. Europe is looking a bit to much like Soviet Russia these days for my tastes, heck every gets what ever they want over there already, government gives them a job, and now patents are no longer leagal if it interfers with compitition. Europe looks a little Red to me. As the say Kill a Commie for Mommie

You know, a long time ago I learned not to open my mouth and speak about a subject if I had absolutely no understanding of it. You, apparently, still have much to learn. :shadedshu

I couldn't care less if Microsoft is actually guilty or not (though I think they are), but you don't just piss all over another country's laws if you expect them to let you do business there. And Microsoft does expect to do business in Europe -- they'll never pull out, no matter how many fines are slapped against them, because they're still making a profit.

communism is about being screwed (dictated to) by the government..

capitalism is about being screwed (dictated to) by the corporation..

either way u get screwed.. and either way u end up with no choice..

trog

ps.. sheep are made to be screwed.. and ultimatley end up on the shepherds f-cking dinner table.. he he

trog100communism is about being screwed (dictated to) by the government..

capitalism is about being screwed (dictated to) by the corporation..

either way u get screwed.. and either way u end u with no choice..

trog

"People should not fear their governments, governments should fear their people."

Random Murderer"People should not fear their governments, governments should fear their people."

and Microsoft should fear their customers.. he he

trog

trog100and Microsoft should fear their customers.. he he

trog

"Customers should not fear Microsoft, Microsoft should fear their customers."

Better?

I dont think ms would fear me im about as intimadating as mashpotatoe.

TripriftI dont think ms would fear me im about as intimadating as mashpotatoe.

lol, nice one.:roll:

...i already posted this.

mdm-adphYou know, a long time ago I learned not to open my mouth and speak about a subject if I had absolutely no understanding of it. You, apparently, still have much to learn. :shadedshu

I couldn't care less if Microsoft is actually guilty or not (though I think they are), but you don't just piss all over another country's laws if you expect them to let you do business there. And Microsoft does expect to do business in Europe -- they'll never pull out, no matter how many fines are slapped against them, because they're still making a profit.

as you say, much to learn has he, young he is, in time can we hope we can the error of his ways he will learn.

as you say, will pull out ms will not, profits they would loose, bad for them that would be,pay their fines they will not, likely sanctions it will take, eather way funny i say it is people defending ms breaking laws.

Ok im not going to try and argue with either side in this argument. But I do want to point out a few unbiased facts to some things everyone should know.

TROG what you say about communism and capitalism is quite true.

But I think everyone needs a quick economics lesson. The best economy is a free market economy, which is an economy with ZERO government interference at all. While the U.S. may not have a free market economy they are the closest out of any other country in the world. Which is why Microsoft gets less government interference in America. While some less educated people may argue that if this is the case that a free market economy is very bad, I believe that if you educated yourself in economics that you would understand more of what I am saying then.The EU needs to embrace more of a free market economy like the U.S. does. thats what I think.

Also Random Murderer, Microsoft shouldnt fear its customers instead it needs to listen to them more, which they try to do. I have an excellent book that everyone should read called Why Software Sucks and what you can do about it but sadly i have forgotten the authors name lol. But it is a really good book with a few jokes in it that is really enlightening to me and im sure alot of people. It explains about how Microsoft does indeed listen to its customers. I encourage everyone to read this book.

Now me I dont think Microsoft should get fined because if you read this news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080227/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_microsoft_7 you will see that Microsoft did indeed lower its royalty rates to virtually zero and yet the EU still saw fit to penalize them. Yes there is little competition to Microsoft in Europe at least.

The EU's Court of First Instance ruling that upheld regulators' views changed the company's mind again in October when it offered a new license for interoperability information for a flat fee of 10,000 euros ($14,900) and an optional worldwide patent license for a reduced royalty of 0.4 percent.

But does that mean that Microsoft has to drastically change the way it does business in another region in the world just because their thinking is vastly different from other regions of the world? I think not.

Again try not to flame me everyone Im really not trying to argue, im simply trying to put in my moneys worth of knowledge. As we all should try to do rather than cuss as candle did.

EU sucks these days i want national socialistme back in europe :(
specialy here in holland

MorgothEU sucks these days i want national socialistme back in europe :(
specialy here in holland

Holland (and most of Europe) was occupied during the national socialist reign in Germany, is this what you want to bring back?

cus i liked those times not corrupt as now ohhh we need more ppl from other country com join us we give you a big fat car and a house and give you a job and let other ppl rot! that how it goes here!

nvm slow internet

We'll let the courts decide about MS and the EU. How about working for the things you want. People who need government to run thier lives, might as well not live at all. It's pathetic.:shadedshu

effmasterOk im not going to try and argue with either side in this argument. But I do want to point out a few unbiased facts to some things everyone should know.

TROG what you say about communism and capitalism is quite true.

But I think everyone needs a quick economics lesson. The best economy is a free market economy, which is an economy with ZERO government interference at all. While the U.S. may not have a free market economy they are the closest out of any other country in the world. Which is why Microsoft gets less government interference in America. While some less educated people may argue that if this is the case that a free market economy is very bad, I believe that if you educated yourself in economics that you would understand more of what I am saying then.The EU needs to embrace more of a free market economy like the U.S. does. thats what I think.

Uh, no. Just... no.

Forget an economics lesson -- try a history lesson.

You want an economy with ZERO government interference? Look at America's economy around the beginning of the 20th century. You know, back when you got paid two cents an hour, businesses employed little 9-year-olds to crawl around inside machinery (because they had smaller hands!), and food manufacturers regularly mixed all manner of hazardous and poisonous substances in with food just to increase weight and volume.

Oh yeah, I totally want to live like that again.

MorgothEU sucks these days i want national socialistme back in europe :(
specialy here in holland

Yeah, "national socialism" goes by another name, usually: Nazism. I think we can ALL do without that again, thank you.

is it becus we say no to outlanders that want to work for low payment and come here to hide and terrorise the streets?

Look, we have the same problems here in the U.S., people stream across the border and look for work in our cities. This is a very complex issue, that requires a combination of equally complex measures to resolve it, but no one here, aside from a few fringe groups, advocates what you are proposing. Fascism = concentration camps, executions, forced relocations and so on, i sure as hell hope that we have evolved past that and this is no way to resolve today's problems.

If they have so much trouble making software that runs on Windows they should either get more talented coders or begin working on Linux if they hate Windows so much or feel ill treated. The way the EU has handled this case is a beyond believe. They have completely missed the point on various occasions and completely neglect to take into consideration Microsoft's position in this case. In my opinion Microsoft has every right to protect their copyrighted code by all means.

I am not saying that all of Microsoft's business etiquettes are good or anything like that, far from. I am merely stating that this verdict is biased and just goes to show how ignorant the legislators on this area in the EU are.

Just my 2 cents.

Wile EI think the EU is stupid, crazy, and far too short sighted.

I don't think MS should have to share a single line of their code. It's called proprietary for a reason. Now, if they choose to do so of their own free will, that's absolutely great, but I don't think anyone else should have the right to say what they do with their own intellectual property.

If I were MS, not only would I refuse to pay the fine, I would counter with the threat to pull completely out of the European market. What would the EU do then?

Dude, this is the EU we're talking here.... borderline communists.

lemonadesodaSaying that MS should shut down their operations in Europe is asinine. Why would any company do any action to cut off more than 30% of its revenues? So, for the sake of ONE $500 million fine, you would cut of income of $15,000 million, this year, and each and every year in the future? Are you an investment genius?

Thankyou - couldn't have put it better myself, finally someone that looks at the big picture!

800 million people in Europe - that's 800 million potential customers, 300 million people in the USA, Europe has double the amount of market than the USA, I'm surprised they're not doing more to make everyone in the EU and the EU "Government" to like them more.

Random Murderer"People should not fear their governments, governments should fear their people."

That FEAR is, unfortunately, what encourages gvts to establish totalitarian control, whether through dictatorships, surveilence cameras at every corner, or "snoop" on the individual laws pretending to be anti-terrorist legislation.

Why do people take things like this so seriously its not like you have to pay the fine is it :shadedshu.
Back on topic incidents like this happen on a daily basis I.E company's being fined and/or have sanctions put on them on both side of the water so i don't think anti EU UK US talk has any positive input here, We only heard about this particular case because 1. its a record breaking fine 2. its microsoft 3. it increases awareness of microsoft as a company in a good or bad way depends on how you the individual looks at it ( as seen in this thread ) and i'm sure there are many other reasons also.

Cheers
Gam

so why does microsoft not need to obey local laws for locations that ship there items to? you mean so long as i live in the US its ok for me to say mail bombs to germany? great I'll get right on that... o wait thats illegal there as it is here and its too much work to do... same with flying there well assuming you aren't some friggen politician and you went to visit another country, shot a guy... well your going to be held legally responsible but anyways moral of the story... there are big headed ppl world round that aren't willing to give thought to things, myself included...

KBDLook, we have the same problems here in the U.S., people stream across the border and look for work in our cities. This is a very complex issue, that requires a combination of equally complex measures to resolve it, but no one here, aside from a few fringe groups, advocates what you are proposing. Fascism = concentration camps, executions, forced relocations and so on, i sure as hell hope that we have evolved past that and this is no way to resolve today's problems.

You know, fascism can also be defined as a complete merging of a government and the corporate sector -- i.e., a government allowing businesses to do whatever they want because they're actually one in the same. ;)

[end random thought]