btarunrYours is arse-ended since you are not paying for the content you're supposed to pay for. Money not earned very much does equal money lost in this case. Then again, I didn't specify how much money lost, so that part of the argument is abstract to us both.

But then the person may not have downloaded the content if he/she had to pay for it. Therefore, if the person "would" have paid for it, it would be money lost. I also believe the majority of people that would pay for artistic works do, even if they can get them for free.

I both download content and buy the stuff i really like. I have to say, if i had to pay for the stuff i have taken i just would have gone without. And then i would have actually bought less not knowing how much i would have liked it. And the stuff i would have bought would proababily be junk.

tkpenaltyIronic how the capitalist system is indirectly transitioning into socialism with DRM.

What? Do you know what socialism is? I hate DRM but I don't see a connection between it and socialism.

tkpenaltyAs I said earlier. When you make music, or art, why do you make it? You don't make it to make money. I find people who make art/music for money specifically just make crap. Look at 50% of the deviantart stuff!

How romantic. Then you have kids. Now the only thing you do well is art. So you do the best you can to support yourself and your family. You apparently have no clue as to how an artist survives.

tkpenaltyPiracy allows us to try before we buy. As stupid as it sounds, most of the time the trial version/samples aren't enough of the product, or only display what we'd like to see but not the crap, or lack of it(cough cough EA). Its almost a scam if we buy a game because we think its good until we actually use it.

How many demos haven't represented at least one level of the game or the gameplay? Also if a game doesn't have a demo then don't buy it. Nothing in what you said gives you the right to steal.

tkpenaltyTalented artists, before going major should NOT worry about their money. AT that point you the artist shoudl be more concerned about the stuff that you are putting out. I will laugh at record labels when theres a totalitarianistic set of laws in place to stomp out piracy because at that point the consumers in general will have little to no exposure to the music, and thus we wont be inclined to buy anything. I only wanted to buy an album after I listened to it already and knew it was good. Same goes for all my relatives. It is different for those who have loads of money however.

If the artist signs with a record label then you have to respect the laws that protect their property. Doing anything less makes you a thief. It takes you longer to go to Pirate Bay and find the music than to hit Amazon and listen to a trial of each track. Also if an artist wants exposure then there are better ways of distribution then file sharing networks where you risk your listeners getting a virus.

tkpenaltyWhat these anti-piracy corporations should really be pushing for is something in another field. Ways to eradicate the massive inequality in some of the nations, just raising the bar of the poor's living standards, instead of worrying about their own overinflated assets. I mean are any of the record labels anywhere near bankruptcy? They're all driving lambos and shit for only publishing what is not theirs, and paying the artists which make their money a small amount of it.

Who are you to say the assets are overinflated? What makes you better than them? Its their money. Now you sound like a socialist.

took so much time to read all the comments i downloaded 2 games and 48 music albums in the meanwhile.

I cant see why such a commotion Pirate Party got over 7% of the vote and would earn at least one seat fair and square. Thakfully we have democracy were this can happen and they have as much right to compete as the next party. My own guess they will become even more popular in the years to come as more younger ppl come to voting age change it happens.

TheMailMan78Well then you wont mind having a song you sang being played at a Al-qaeda beheading then would you? I mean we are not questioning right or wrong anymore so why not?

WTF has that got to do with ANYthing? Are you just trying to see how many people you can get riled up?

TheMailMan78Great one small step for pirates, One giant fall for artists. WTF is wrong with the EU for allowing this. To hell with these people.

I've got to ask, When you say These people do you mean the normal tax paying working public I.e me and many many others ?

TheMailMan78Remember guys this party isn't called the "Artist empowerment movement" Its called the Pirate party. By thief's for thief's. Don't try an sugar coat it damn it.

Don't sensationalize it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party

silkstoneThat's an arse-ended way of thinking about it! Money not earned doesn't equal money lost.
Also you are assuming 1 download results in 1 loss of sales.

btarunrYours is arse-ended since you are not paying for the content you're supposed to pay for. Money not earned very much does equal money lost in this case. Then again, I didn't specify how much money lost, so that part of the argument is abstract to us both.

Sorry, Silk has a point that many miss. Money not earned does not equal money lost. Just because I downloaded (and subsequently purchased) Rev Theory's album because I wanted to know if all the album was as good as the ones I heard at RotR last year, doesn't mean they lost that money. Just because I downloaded CoD4, doesn't mean I don't have a legal copy that I play online on the OMC server with. It just means I took a test drive with the software before I bought it.

its not money lost, if people were NEVER going to pay for it.

you cant afford it: you pirate it.
You dont think its worth the price: you pirate it
you want to try before you buy, and wont buy WITHOUT trying: you pirate it.

In none of those situations was the company ever going to get money. its a pirate or nothing deal.

Gam'sterI've got to ask, When you say These people do you mean the normal tax paying working public I.e me and many many others ?

As I remember, MailMan is an American Nationalist, so "these people" would be anyone who's not part of Real America™

AhhzzWTF has that got to do with ANYthing? Are you just trying to see how many people you can get riled up?

It's called demagoguery. If this thread goes on for a long time we'll probably start seeing a lot of it, from all sides. :laugh:

btarunrYours is arse-ended since you are not paying for the content you're supposed to pay for. Money not earned very much does equal money lost in this case. Then again, I didn't specify how much money lost, so that part of the argument is abstract to us both.

There's a lot of people who are starting to think that no one should have to pay for any digital content, since it can be infinitely duplicated at almost no cost to the original producer.

See, for instance, MIT putting all their classes on the internet for free.

TheMailMan78What? Do you know what socialism is? I hate DRM but I don't see a connection between it and socialism.

We are not entitled to property. DRM basically strips us of owning things.

How romantic. Then you have kids. Now the only thing you do well is art. So you do the best you can to support yourself and your family. You apparently have no clue as to how an artist survives.

Afaik you only get paid up front. If you are so concerned about your family, I don't think it would be a good idea to undertake anything creative, especially when you can barely feed your family. And anyway, when I say something i don't mean it to everything. There are exceptions to what I said, but you could really blame the record labels themselves for taking such a huge share of what they make and then overall making more than all the artists combiend. It is the record labels I am scrutinising here. They are the ones to blame for the lack of money that you talk about. We wont mention major label artists because they are the ones who suffer the least. They breakeven from the financial stress of being a music artist.

How many demos haven't represented at least one level of the game or the gameplay? Also if a game doesn't have a demo then don't buy it. Nothing in what you said gives you the right to steal.

Yes we dont have rights to steal, but I think EVERYONE needs to realise that society is not as law abiding as it seems. Sometimes bending the laws leads to much more returns. IF you really want to stomp out piracy, the more you stomp, the more piracy there will be. Historically speaking any problem that is repressed will result in more of it.

Game demos lately have been very misleading in terms of the game quality. In most cases the games end up being highly underwhelming; they chucked the best into the demo. Wouldnt you say deceiving the customer is basically a scam? You the law abiding person, would sue wouldnt you? I think not.

If the artist signs with a record label then you have to respect the laws that protect their property. Doing anything less makes you a thief. It takes you longer to go to Pirate Bay and find the music than to hit Amazon and listen to a trial of each track. Also if an artist wants exposure then there are better ways of distribution then file sharing networks where you risk your listeners getting a virus.

You seem to be very protective of the money that you earn from the record labels. Yes getting the amazon trials is a good idea but in the end its just one listen. Most giant corporations have massive amounts of profits that they will never use. Its like a E-penis, well more like Cash Penis. Thats where your money is.

Who are you to say the assets are overinflated? What makes you better than them? Its their money. Now you sound like a socialist.

Read what i typed above. Look at the revenue numbers. Will they EVER utilise that? No they will just keep expanding. These huge cash reserves basically give so much power to one or two individuals. You the artist receives an extremely tiny portion. I'd like to think of Piracy as a unofficial "tax" only in a slightly different way. Despite the piracy i dont see ANY party really "suffering" apart from the underpaid artists.

Yes I sound like a socialist because you extremely embrace capitalism. I'd support a "mid wing" system completely though, high tax, but still allow a market, etc. I smell some 1970s esque cold war attitude in you. Get rid of it. Pure capitalism, and Socialism both dont work. You need a mix. I dont think this economic downturn would have been that bad if hte governments had the power to fabricate statistics to prevent pessimism, as the downturn was mostly pessimism driven. Seems like those nations who dont have much government intervention did worse.

I think its a waste of resources to stamp out piracy. It will only make the filthy rich even richer and the poor have less to spend. Cant we not mention it and let it co-exist? Because its not causing any problems for anyone in particular. It is not at a rampant stage where a company has collapsed because of it.

I hope the pirate party takes a "middle wing" approach however, and not a "freebies to everybody" approach which will fail.


If you have so much money that you dont need it for anything actually of use, or assets, why not give some away to alleviate poverty, etc? Even bill gates does it.






Finally I find the lack of a public healthcare system disgusting for a "Developed country". All because major corporations are too anal to pay a little bit more tax, from money which they will never use.

mdm-adphAs I remember, MailMan is an American Nationalist, so "these people" would be anyone who's not part of Real America™
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That clears things up a bit, But i thought that posting on a techforum such as TPU was to give your opinion on tech news and the topics that surround it not attack and damn people for being a citizen of a state/country.

But on topic, If The Pirate Party go about things the right way then more power to them, If not well then they will sink to the lower levels were most other politicians live and corruption breeds.

mailman is our resident piracy hater. while he is entirely steamed up and ready to set people on fire for talking about it, i get just as worked up over people saying a 2GHz dual core adds up to 4GHz of power.

Musselsits not money lost, if people were NEVER going to pay for it.

you cant afford it: you pirate it.
You dont think its worth the price: you pirate it
you want to try before you buy, and wont buy WITHOUT trying: you pirate it.

In none of those situations was the company ever going to get money. its a pirate or nothing deal.

That's how I go by, for example the movie Forgetting Sarah Marshall, it's not the movie that I would go and see or rent, I downloaded it to see what it was like as it has a few people I like in it. They never would have got my money as I never would have went to see it, but, they made money on the DVD I bought of it:



Same goes for stoner comedy Friday and its sequels, a movie my friend told me about I had no idea existed, downloaded it, liked it, downloaded the sequels, bought them on DVD:



And for American TV shows no one over here watches (forget Everybody Hates Chris, but I bought that from the US before it was popular over here)



Not pirating wouldn't have gotten those greedy fucks anything, all they care about is money, hence why they dislike pirating, but if I didn't pirate them they wouldn't have got any sales. And besides, I'm fucking 17 and unemployed I don't have money to rent movies every week.

I'll join in.

heres half of my collection.

90% of this was downloaded, and i liked it so i bought it.


unrelated, but yes thats an 8800GTX drying off in front of the heater. i gave it a bath cause it wasnt working.

(i wonder what those fuzzy lines are? hope my cam aint breaking)

Musselsi get just as worked up over people saying a 2GHz dual core adds up to 4GHz of power.

Oh god, I hate those people... :shadedshu

They are everywhere, and many sound knowledgeable enough to know better.

tkpenaltyWe are not entitled to property. DRM basically strips us of owning things.

Never thought of it that way! :laugh: Proponents of DRM are basically communists!

tkpenaltyAfaik you only get paid up front. If you are so concerned about your family, I don't think it would be a good idea to undertake anything creative, especially when you can barely feed your family.

This is off-topic, but... Welcome to America! A land where sex education is practically nonexistent, abortion is becoming quickly illegal, and birth control getting harder every day. A lot don't plan to have families there, and have to make do with whatever careers they have at the time, be it a radio DJ or an artist or just a trash collector. I'm sure MailMan's got good reasons for feeling the way he does.

tkpenaltyRead what i typed above. Look at the revenue numbers. Will they EVER utilise that? No they will just keep expanding. These huge cash reserves basically give so much power to one or two individuals. You the artist receives an extremely tiny portion. I'd like to think of Piracy as a unofficial "tax" only in a slightly different way. Despite the piracy i dont see ANY party really "suffering" apart from the underpaid artists.

In America, it's not looked down upon for an organization or individual to have so much money that they can never actually spend it all. It's even lauded -- it's almost like people want to live like Egyptian Pharaohs there and be buried with piles of gold coins.

In places like Europe, it looks to me like it is looked down upon, because it's wasteful. Am I getting this right?

Now, there are exceptions to both rules, but the vast majority of people in both places seem like they think like this to me.

I need a citation for this, but all you have to do is look at the "lowest worker to highest worker" ratios in some countries. In places like Germany, the UK, etc, I remember the average CEO makes something like 20-40 times what the average lowest paid worker does -- for instance, if the lowest paid worker in a company is making $40k a year, the CEO usually makes around $1.2 million.

In America, it's something like 400 times as much. It's a root problem that makes people in these two places look at the problem of piracy much differently!

There's also the matter of availability, I downloaded Top Gear Season 1-12, I love the show, I watch it all the time/all the new episodes every week they air and always watch their new clips on YouTube, but it isn't available on DVD (Except Season 10 which is US exclusive) Believe me I'd prefer to have it on DVD, but it isn't available on DVD so no sale which means no money lost, it's also free to watch on TV and it's on BBC which has no adverts so it's not like they need money.

If I liked an indie movie or a movie that's unknown/small company, documentary or whatever I'll buy the DVD to support them, but most movies are from the big dogs like Paramount or Fox and they won't tank if they don't get €20, I buy from Play.com anyway so all my DVDs are bought cheap. What about pricing, I saw the Rocky Anthology new in a DVD shop for €15.99, that's €2.66 per movie, so paying next to nothing for a movie isn't bad at all? Not like they would even notice if they didn't get €15.99 with the amount of money they make. Alien Quadrilogy, retailed for like €80, I paid €28.99 for it, in a way buying cheap is almost as bad as pirating, they get almost nothing for these DVDs I pay for so they wouldn't be making much of a profit.

If I pirate a movie chances are I would want to own it on DVD, I like having hard copys, I like extras like a commentary and making of featurettes, not to mention DVDs are higher quality than most DVD rips on the internet and have 5.1 surround, if I don't own it it's simply I do not have the funds at the time.

MusselsI'll join in.

heres half of my collection.
img.techpowerup.org/090609/Arrrrrr.jpg
90% of this was downloaded, and i liked it so i bought it.


unrelated, but yes thats an 8800GTX drying off in front of the heater. i gave it a bath cause it wasnt working.

(i wonder what those fuzzy lines are? hope my cam aint breaking)

At least you know where your cam is, I can't find mine lol.

mdm-adphOh god, I hate those people... :shadedshu

They are everywhere, and many sound knowledgeable enough to know better.

It gets pretty close if you have quality multithreaded software running on it. If the application is unithreaded or only has one heavy thread, then no, it doesn't even come close.

Can i have a recap of this thread please?

Same here on the movies/TV shows. I have (shudder, and some of the faint at heart may want to hide their eyes...) the entire Buffy AND Angel tv seasons on fully legal, purchased, dvd sets. Downloaded about half of each, and from my memory of watching, and the ones I d/l'd and liked, decided to get them all. Also, support for Joss, the developer. My favorite Anime and movies? Buy em. May buy them second hand, may spend $90 and get a bunch on sale (latest anime bill...hope the g/f doesn't see that one heheh), but I get them.

For those supporting the artists in this discussion, I request you take 5 minutes and go here, read, and attempt to understand the concept being explained here.

WhiteLotusCan i have a recap of this thread please?

Pirates are taking over the world! Get you're buccaneer boots, warm up the vocal cords for "ARRRRGH," and put your eye patch on. :D

If you have a badge, hide it.

ah so we're still debating pirating good verse bad. OK, just didn't want to read the last load of pages.

Can i say that digital music should be cheaper? There is no physical product to produce so not much in the way of costs, so why still £7-9 an album?

mdm-adphIn places like Europe, it looks to me like it is looked down upon, because it's wasteful. Am I getting this right?

Now, there are exceptions to both rules, but the vast majority of people in both places seem like they think like this to me.

I wouldnt look down upon it as being wastefull, If someone has piles of cash it doesnt in the slightest bit bother me, If they have it they've either earned it, through Inheritance or even won it lol.
Its the same here with CEO's earning X amount more i have no proof of figures but an example is: I work as a driver for First Group, A large transport company that has operations in both the EU and US, So the gap in my pay and a US drivers pay prob isnt all that much hence the gap from us two drivers to the CEO is the roughly same, If that makes sence.

FordGT90ConceptIt gets pretty close if you have quality multithreaded software running on it. If the application is unithreaded or only has one heavy thread, then no, it doesn't even come close.

Hz is a measurement of time. its the same as saying a two cars doing 100MPH = 1 car doing 200MPH. they may be able to carry twice as much, but two cars wont reach a destination 200 100 miles away for an hour, no matter how many there is.


Whitelotus: this thread is basically the mailman disagreeing with everyone else.


that linked thread is giving a good read!

MusselsWhitelotus: this thread is basically the mailman disagreeing with everyone else

But i do agree with everything he says, even though I am guilty of acquiring things by means of not paying for them.

[watches the internet with shifty eyes]