Do you think multi GPUs are worthy ?

[Stevicus]

A couple of questions id like answers to stemmed from a recent article i read and a discussion i had with someone else.

Firstly the article was concerned mainly about a failed project that should have been a crowning achievement but failed miserably because the planned objective
was impossible to achieve.
The project was to build the fastest multi card gaming system you could build if money was no object (a frequent fantacy of mine) and after trying sli & xfire they
came to the conclusion that poor performance in multi card set ups makes them not worth the excessive expence. The quad set up of dual 590z & dual 6990z
displayed unplayable min frame rates and micro stuttering at tri screen set up resolutions along with tons of heat & massive power usage. Two 580z were
tested and proved to be faster at min & ave fps but still suffered micro stuttering as did 2 x 6870z. The 590 & the 6990 also exhibited the same low min frames
& micro stuttering when at tripple frame res 5760x1080 and a single 6970 produced the same min frame rate as the 6990 proving multi GPU set ups are not
worth the trouble.

Could this really be true that multi card set ups have not been perfected ?

That the industry promote multi card set ups knowing they are inefficient and terrible value ?

What is your experience with these set ups ? My own amounts to 2 x 4890z that i gave up on because i was getting better game play with one. I always thought
my experience was a one off bit of bad luck but now im just wondering if it is all its cracked up to be.

My other question is : do you think the graphics industry has become cartel like with the drip feeding of technology & keeping cards purposely slower to keep
the upgrade path perpetually open and coupling that with restrictive software developement ?

What do you think ?

 

[Fourstaff]

Could this really be true that multi card set ups have not been perfected ?

That the industry promote multi card set ups knowing they are inefficient and terrible value ?

My other question is : do you think the graphics industry has become cartel like with the drip feeding of technology & keeping cards purposely slower to keep
the upgrade path perpetually open and coupling that with restrictive software developement ?

Multi card setups have come a long way, but they are still not perfected yet. Multi card setups are sometimes dependent on the game designers, if the game designers can't be bothered to optimise to support multicard setups it would appear that the multicard setup sucks. No, I don't think the graphics industry have become a cartel. They have innovated heavily, and while this is not apparent in the first glance, you can get a graphics card which run games at least mid level of quality in 1080p for less than $100, something which you will not be able to do a few years ago. And given that they are still in the bleeding edge of technology, drip feeding is inevitable. A good example would be Fermi. Tried to do a lot, but failed. 5xxx series was a lot more conservative, and was an outstanding success. I don't think they are keeping the cards purposely slower (at least they are not printing money judging by the financial reports), and upgrade path will be perpetually open because the GPU industry have not matured. Can you please elaborate on the restrictive software development bit? I do not quite understand, are you referring to DX11 or OpenCL?

 

[micropage7]

personally multi gpu is a good news of graphic development.
i agree there long way to go. but i guess it would like processor development where 1st is single core to dual processor then multi core in 1 die
im not big fan of multi gpu (although it looks pretty cool)
i prefer single right now

 

[LifeOnMars]

Is that the article that was in "Custom PC" Uk edition?

I recieved my copy yesterday and found it a very interesting read. I have had an HD 4850 crossfire setup and an HD 4870X2 in the past. Both had their faults but it was more driver issues and certain tweaks that were needed. These soon became second nature and I could definitely see the benefit of having a multi gpu setup.

However, given the choice right now. I'd love that GTX 580 they reviewed in the same magazine

 

[General Lee]

Haven't tried multi GPU yet myself, but I'm planning on buying a second 6950 when the next gen cards emerge. I think multi gpu solutions have matured to the point where I can actually consider using them. There remains still the issues with support, a lot of games don't work on release and driver support might take months, and even if it works, scaling might not be ideal.

Besides support, there's also the issue of micro stutter. This is again dependant on the game engine. It seems to me though that all in all things have improved enough that it's at least worth a try. I use Eyefinity so a single 6970 isn't really enough to run all the new games in 3x1080p resolution with high settings.

Now if you're talking 3-way or 4-way multi gpu solutions, it seems they're not worth the trouble. In all the reviews I've seen the scaling is horrible or nonexistant.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Could this really be true that multi card set ups have not been perfected, and that the industry promotes multi card set ups knowing they are inefficient and terrible value?


My other question is : do you think the graphics industry has become cartel like with the drip feeding of technology & keeping cards purposely slower to keep
the upgrade path perpetually open and coupling that with restrictive software developement ?

What do you think ?

I reworded your quote a tiny bit to parse it into two distinct questions, and a third summarizing topic.

1) Yes, crossfire and sli are less efficient than simply getting a single card. This is a well understood phenomenon. Two cards require specific drivers, and programs designed to utilize said drivers. Unless you're a programer on a mission, these drivers influence such a small segment of the market that most developers completely forego developing them (cost versus good to the most consumers).

That aside, crossfire and sli drivers are updated for almost every major game. This should be a huge red flag that tells you there's a lot of work currently being done. With so much work still in process, it's no wonder that the performance is occasionally wonky.


2) Moore's law. Plain and simple. If you've never heard about it flog yourself for angering the PC gods, and start off on Wikipedia. Ever wonder why Intel and AMD continue to put out faster processors? It's the same idea.

Conjecturing that there's some shadowy cabal running the industry is a joke. Both AMD and Nvidea are limited by their foundries. Foundries are limited by personnel and technology. Technology is limited by research. Using this logic, the only limiter on your graphics card is the technology available to produce chips. In reality, there are financial concerns (every wonder why those ARES GPUs were only produced in small quantities?) which will limit production. A non-profitable company doesn't last long (unless they have governmental grants, sigh).

In short, no. There is no magical conspiracy keeping graphics cards slow. It would be bad for business.


3) You are obviously new to the whole PC thing (not using, but understanding the motivations behind the development cycles), and new to researching before asking a question. If this was asked anywhere else, you'd have been buried beneath a mountain of trolls for both sides that couldn't see past their own e-peen to give you a straight answer.

Do a little research that isn't biased (Techpowerup, Tomshardware, or any of the dozens of other reputable technology blogs) by being in a print magazine, then come forward with a more targetted question.

 

[Stevicus]

I reworded your quote a tiny bit to parse it into two distinct questions, and a third summarizing topic.

1) Yes, crossfire and sli are less efficient than simply getting a single card. This is a well understood phenomenon. Two cards require specific drivers, and programs designed to utilize said drivers. Unless you're a programer on a mission, these drivers influence such a small segment of the market that most developers completely forego developing them (cost versus good to the most consumers).

That aside, crossfire and sli drivers are updated for almost every major game. This should be a huge red flag that tells you there's a lot of work currently being done. With so much work still in process, it's no wonder that the performance is occasionally wonky.


2) Moore's law. Plain and simple. If you've never heard about it flog yourself for angering the PC gods, and start off on Wikipedia. Ever wonder why Intel and AMD continue to put out faster processors? It's the same idea.

Conjecturing that there's some shadowy cabal running the industry is a joke. Both AMD and Nvidea are limited by their foundries. Foundries are limited by personnel and technology. Technology is limited by research. Using this logic, the only limiter on your graphics card is the technology available to produce chips. In reality, there are financial concerns (every wonder why those ARES GPUs were only produced in small quantities?) which will limit production. A non-profitable company doesn't last long (unless they have governmental grants, sigh).

In short, no. There is no magical conspiracy keeping graphics cards slow. It would be bad for business.


3) You are obviously new to the whole PC thing (not using, but understanding the motivations behind the development cycles), and new to researching before asking a question. If this was asked anywhere else, you'd have been buried beneath a mountain of trolls for both sides that couldn't see past their own e-peen to give you a straight answer.

Do a little research that isn't biased (Techpowerup, Tomshardware, or any of the dozens of other reputable technology blogs) by being in a print magazine, then come forward with a more targetted question.

Thank you for the helpful pedantry but as far as research goes there are just too many peripheral influences to get a definite answer to specific questions about this or that set up or other. I find that im trying to read between the lines too often so in some cases its a good idea to stimulate a debate to get a feel for what ppl think and experience.

I dont recall mentioning a "Shadowy Cabal" or "magical conspiracy" i simply want to know if the political economy that has grown up around the graphics industry has become cartel like ? If you dont know how these things arise & effect economics then i suggest you do some research before you start with the slings and arrows.

@ LOM Yes m8 i just read that article and the editorial and thought what to make of this ?

@ Fourstaff Thats what im referring to, things like dx10, dx10.1 the way these and other developments that speed up the pace of obsolescence particularly of gaming input devices & the like.

 

[Fourstaff]

@ Fourstaff Thats what im referring to, things like dx10, dx10.1 the way these and other developments that speed up the pace of obsolescence particularly of gaming input devices & the like.

Well, we are only just getting into DX11, so there is no point going any further just yet. Blame that on the game developers (and consoles) for this problem, not the graphics card manufacturer. As for OpenCL, as long as it doesnt get a good backing like how CUDA did, its adoption rate is not going to be impressive, especially since that CUDA is quite a lot more matured and supported as of now. This will slowly change as more people adopt OpenCL in the future, and I agree that the pace should be sped up, but no money no talk.

 

[Cratzky]

Well, remember the old times with 3dfx ? what about the 3dfx voodoo5 6000? 4 beastly gpus on same board...

Times!

In the future, with small enough manufactoring process:

Totally doable!
Looking forward to have 100x core card.

 

[Batou1986]

Imo multi gpu is only nice if you bought a decent card to start with and in the future decide to get another one to up perf for a low price.

For instance i would likely get a 6870 sometime next year if i could find one for $120~$150

 

[LAN_deRf_HA]

I've always though of it as a waste of slots. Stick to the fastest single gpu card you can find for simplicities sake. We've got enough driver issues on both sides as is, no need to add to the problem.

 

[qubit]

Well, remember the old times with 3dfx ? what about the 3dfx voodoo5 6000? 4 beastly gpus on same board...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/Voodoo_5_6000.jpg

Times!

In the future, with small enough manufactoring process:

Totally doable!
Looking forward to have 100x core card.

What a brilliant photoshop!

 

[ensabrenoir]

Always saw it as a way for the little guys to run with the big boys... over time. Two mid range affordable card bought over time to soften the price impact that can come close to the high end stuff. I started out with a msi 5670 which really was adequate for my needs. Then I discovered benchmarks and boom here comes the 6870. Then i saw one sale for like $50 buck cheaper than the first one i bought.... who am i kidding. I got bored. multi gpus are just another avenue for me to tweak, down load, upgrade and push my rig to its limits. Haven't found much real world stuff to do that yet. Im sure there is a graphical improvement but seriously just feeding my techno-nerd-ocity

 

[Widjaja]

At the moment single core all the way for me.
Less chances of running into hassles with games which do not support it or have troubles with multi GPU cards due to either AMD or the game devs.

 

[erixx]

I had once 2 x GT 9600. In some scenarios (more after some time) it gave performance.

But no. Simplicity is much better than some extra 3dmarks...

Unless multi GPU gets as good as Intel multi cores :^)

 

[yogurt_21]

microstutter on 2 580's? perhaps they should throw in the towell on rig building, it simply isn't their forte.

I don't have that issue with my 480's nor have I on any dual gpu setup I've ever run. My 295 didn't stutter, dual 9600gt's didn't, shoot I didn't even see it on dual x1800's way back in the day.


I'd be curious what drivers they were using and what the rest of the rig was. something tells me they missed somethign obvious.

 

[cadaveca]

Microstutter is well documented at this point. It's simply an artifact of delayed render times between VGAs, that some users are more sensitive to than others.

That said though, like you, yogurt, it's been a while since I've noticed it...I see it every now and then on some apps with my 6950's on a single monitor(Dirt3 and BC2 most recently), but I simply disabled crossfire, and all is well. It seems that the AMD camp has taken it seriously, becuase app profiles work wonders for some drivers.

 

[Melvis]

I think they are more Worthy now then they once was. I would never touch a SLi/Crossfire set up 5yrs ago as the scaling was bad which also meant Price/Performance was also very bad. But with new tech these days and newer drivers i find going SLi or Crossfire or a Multi GPU card seems to be worth while now for the most part. Scaling is very good and ive had no issues at all when i ran just the one 4870X2, worked very well in all my games. Even when i went quadfire i was expecting it to be a night mare but i was surprised as it has run pretty dam good. There are some games that just hate it, or wont use all the cores that i have like Fear 3 and killing floor, but this isnt a driver problem or the cards fault its the developers of the game.

If you asked these questions 5yrs ago or so i would say its a massive waste of time and money, go get a powerful single core card. But today i would say at least go with a SLi or Crossfire setup they run pretty good these days.

 

[Flibolito]

Been a fan for just getting 1 nice card, never regretted it. I am the type of gamer where microstutter would ruin every aspect of "video" gaming for me.

 

[bostonbuddy]

Didn't want to spend $500 on a single card, so spent $550 on two cards that can crush it. Should be able to hand all the xbox3, ps4 ports.

 

[Widjaja]

microstutter on 2 580's? perhaps they should throw in the towell on rig building, it simply isn't their forte.

I don't have that issue with my 480's nor have I on any dual gpu setup I've ever run. My 295 didn't stutter, dual 9600gt's didn't, shoot I didn't even see it on dual x1800's way back in the day.


I'd be curious what drivers they were using and what the rest of the rig was. something tells me they missed somethign obvious.

My Brother had two 480s in his pursuit for stutter free FSX in DX10 max settings and High Def.
It ended up having more stutters despite crazy high frame rate.

On other games he played, the setup was flawless.

I'd say if there areany stutter issues it would most likely be software related due to the devs or the GPU drivers.

As osmone pointed out though.

Dual GPU has indeed come along ways.

If anyone remembers the initial grief both AMD and nVidia had with their first release of dual GPU cards, most notably the 7900GX2 which had very impressive 3DMarks for it's time.
Unfortunately this did not equate to it's real World performance despite such high fps.

Dual GPU is only going to get better as more and more devs are familiar with making programs work nicely with the setup.

 

[Athlonite]

there's only one reason for poor performance in games and apps whilst using SLI or CrossFire and that's poor development on the Dev's part not AMD or nVidia... seeing as most devs take the path of least resistance ie: Consoles and seem to forget that the PC world has far outstripped the crapsole in both storage space and GPU power and ability we're being held back by poor DX9 crapsole ports

 

[qubit]

My Brother had two 480s in his pursuit for stutter free FSX in DX10 max settings and High Def.
It ended up having more stutters despite crazy high frame rate.

If vsync is turned off, you'll see stutters, line tearing and other artefacts. vsync should always be turned on in normal use and off for benchmarking.

 

[HammerON]

I have always disabled vsync in games and have only had sturrering problems several times with multiple gpu's. My first adventure into dual gpu's was with the 7800 GTX, then with the X1800XT, 3870, 4870, 470 and finally the 580. Mind you I did have a GTX 295 in between the 4870's and the 470's.
The only games I can remember having stuttering problems with running a dual card configurations is Crysis and Crysis 2. This was fixed with drivers from both ATI and Nvidia.
I enjoy being able to play games with all the "eye-candy" at 2560x1600 resolution and thus my two 580's combined with the rest of my main rig allow me to do so (w/out vsync).

 

[Melvis]

If vsync is turned off, you'll see stutters, line tearing and other artefacts. vsync should always be turned on in normal use and off for benchmarking.

To a point this is true, i dont have many of those issues (touchwood) but i do have in alot of games if vsync is turned on i get mouse lag, this is why i turn it off.