XCLOUD

[notb]

Also, I should point out that computers mostly STARTED as time sharing systems. But it was the PERSONAL computer that created a revolution.

Computers started as shared systems for a chosen elite. Even on universities, most employees didn't have access to the infrastructure.

Personal computers were a revolution not because suddenly you could have a huge hot box in your bedroom. It's because anyone could buy the box.

Just to make it clear. I know that most people on this forum are against cloud gaming not because of some ideology or security. They simply like those hot boxes and want to keep them.
But most people on Earth don't. They hate owning computers, but need them. And while PC geeks started putting more and more LEDs in their cases, most people moved to laptops that they can hide in a drawer when not needed.

I know discussions like this one aren't easy for this community, but we have to understand that most of the world doesn't share the interest in tweaking XMP profiles. People want to replace hot boxes with smartphones. They want the cloud and they'll get it.

 

[StrayKAT]

Computers started as shared systems for a chosen elite. Even on universities, most employees didn't have access to the infrastructure.

Personal computers were a revolution not because suddenly you could have a huge hot box in your bedroom. It's because anyone could buy the box.

Just to make it clear. I know that most people on this forum are against cloud gaming not because of some ideology or security. They simply like those hot boxes and want to keep them.
But most people on Earth don't. They hate owning computers, but need them. And while PC geeks started putting more and more LEDs in their cases, most people moved to laptops that they can hide in a drawer when not needed.

I know discussions like this one aren't easy for this community, but we have to understand that most of the world doesn't share the interest in tweaking XMP profiles. People want to replace hot boxes with smartphones. They want the cloud and they'll get it.

I honestly don't care what most people want. If they make this a trend to the point that PCs as a whole die off, I'll just leave and find something else to focus on. I won't join it.

 

[Sebastian-san]

But it also provides a way for high-end, heavy-computation gaming without owning expensive hardware. And potentially, it gets you even further - beyond what a PC can do.

Is that even thermally possible on a global scale?? That's insane, daydreaming. And what about power consumption? Imagine 100.000 people playing some most demanding game at the same time? A single GPU can't play such a game for multiple people, and what would happen if you put 100 or a thousand of those in one place? (it still wouldn't be enough). But thermally speaking, put them all at the bottom of the ocean for water cooling? Make servers on Greenland? How would it be possible for e.g. a million people to play a game that requires at least a 1080 Ti. Lets say... Assetto Corsa 2. How would that work. Im not referring to some low-end mmorpgs. I mean a real racin sim. It requires a dedicated GPU to run. Does that mean 1 million 1080Ti chips in one place? You know very well global scale gaming of such titles will not be possible in the next 10 years min.

People tend to prefer the solution they are used to or they think they understand.

I understand what you are saying and I respect it absolutely. But simply the thought of my music (or anything else such as pictures or BDMVs being far away from my reach and not in my own HDDs is (to me personally) unacceptable. I use my PC literally non-stop. Its always turned on even when I sleep. I play at day, play at night all night, totally random schedule. A lot of years will have to pass for cloud (anything) to match that availability.

Cloud stuff wont stop me from stacking Hard Drives full of anime and Music in my room. I will certainly have a right to spend my money how I want.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Also, I should point out that computers mostly STARTED as time sharing systems.

True, but that was due to costs. Most individuals simply could not afford a computer, nor did they have the floor space to house it.

Owning means being able to do with it what you want, when you want it, to most people. After that principle, we thought about all sorts of laws to protect or limit that ownership. You're mixing up cause and effect here. Law changes, but the principle of ownership really does not.

I think you are mixing up and cause and effect.

Owning does NOT mean can do what you want and when you want. Software is the perfect example of that. You may own the DVD the software came on, but you do NOT own the software, nor can you do whatever you want with it. That's because you only own the "license" to use it. And you agreed to abide by the terms of that license when you decided to install and keep using it.

And sadly, that policy is now spreading into the hardware arena where software is embedded in the hardware. Cell phones, tablets and PoS computers are good examples. But other industries are affected too. Note the recent lawsuits in my state where currently farmers cannot even repair their own tractors. Note where it says,

the craziness of this goes even further: In a 2015 letter to the United States Copyright Office, John Deere, the world’s largest tractor maker, said that the folks who buy tractors don’t own them, not in the way the general public believes “ownership” works. Instead, John Deere said that those who buy tractors are actually purchasing an “implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.”

But this really is different than this xCloud thing. That is where applications like the OS itself, and Word and other applications are in "the cloud" and consumers own what amounts to a "workstation" that uses those apps. This is no different from workstations in the olden days that ran applications and accessed data stored on mainframes.

 

[notb]

I honestly don't care what most people want. If they make this a trend to the point that PCs as a whole die off, I'll just leave and find something else to focus on. I won't join it.

You'll leave computing? How exactly would that work?

BTW: what e-mail provider do you use?
I'm asking because e-mails contain so much private data (but also: login information, temporary passwords etc) that it's literally the first thing you should try to get offline.

During the 90s it was still a common thing on Usenet - people recommended not using large providers like AOL or Yahoo. Same arguments: security, privacy...
And then web forums started to get traction. But they're on a server. What if it dies? And you have to create an account... security, privacy...
It goes on and on...

 

[StrayKAT]

You'll leave computing? How exactly would that work?

BTW: what e-mail provider do you use?
I'm asking because e-mails contain so much private data (but also: login information, temporary passwords etc) that it's literally the first thing you should try to get offline.

During the 90s it was still a common thing on Usenet - people recommended not using large providers like AOL or Yahoo. Same arguments: security, privacy...
And then web forums started to get traction. But they're on a server. What if it dies? And you have to create an account... security, privacy...
It goes on and on...

I don't do anything except game and mod games, for the most part (and occassionally ordering stuff). And some art related to that. I also read books.. but I could read real books all the same. Then I hop around boards like this.

I'm already bored of most games as it is.. And what's keeping me entertained currently are old games. So it's not like I'm going to die if I just walked away from them.

Email.. I've had a dozen over the years. Nothing's really permanent. Currently switched to Protonmail, but even that is just for ordering stuff.

 

[Sebastian-san]

Owning does NOT mean can do what you want and when you want. Software is the perfect example of that. You may own the DVD the software came on, but you do NOT own the software, nor can you do whatever you want with it. That's because you only own the "license" to use it. And you agreed to abide by the terms of that license when you decided to install and keep using it.

Yes, but when I own a "license" to use a software, I want to be able to use it at all time regardless on any machine without spyes lookin at my data and statistics.

XCloud will be a massive global scale spy network. People are already exposing personal information in unnecessary places such as gmail, google account, web browsers, erc. Imagine how exposed people will be on xCloud. Arent there already enough spy networks like facebook and similar? Hackers will be in full blood more than ever once xCloud gets a hold of people.

Me: fake personal info wherever I go. Google account especially. My internet is temporarily, and even if someone is tracking my location, thats useless because Im registered on a completely different living location. So Im actually not here where I am now. So XCloud just gives me shivers.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Yes, but when I own a "license" to use a software, I want to be able to use it at all time regardless on any machine without spyes lookin at my data and statistics.

What you want doesn't matter. If the license says you can use it on one machine only, that is what you can do. If you don't like those terms, don't buy it!

Spies looking at your data is for a totally different discussion.

 

[Sebastian-san]

What you want doesn't matter. If the license says you can use it on one machine only, that is what you can do. If you don't like those terms, don't buy it!

It does matter because I pay for it. And don't think Im a person who gives up because of "terms".

Spies looking at your data is for a totally different discussion.

No it is not. Dont run from the subject. XCloud is the next spy super-network. Ideal for globally connected government hackers. Just like social networks, on which people leave all their personal info.

 

[notb]

Is that even thermally possible on a global scale??
(...)
And what about power consumption? Imagine 100.000 people playing some most demanding game at the same time?

Yes. Servers won't use more electricity, nor create more heat, than personal computers do. They're more effective thanks to scale.

A single GPU can't play such a game for multiple people, and wvat would happen if you put 100 or a thousand of those in one place? (it still wouldn't be enough). But thermally speaking, put them all at the bottom of the ocean for water cooling? Make servers on Greenland?

Have you ever heard about HPC clusters?
We know how to organize large computing machines since... well... since the beginning of electronic computing.

The fastest HPC system today, Summit, has 28 000 V100.
It's roughly equivalent to 100 000 mainstream gaming GPUs like a 1060, so exactly the number you've mentioned.
Summit uses just 13MW of electricity. That's 130W per PC that it could "theoretically" replace. A typical gaming PC with a 1060 would use twice as much. I hope now you're at least a bit less worried about an ecological catastrophe.

To put that into perspective, I've found an information that up to 20 mln people play games on Steam at the same time. Obviously, we would need many of such datacenters, but it's clearly a feasible idea.
Another advantage is that we would have no waste in computation power. Each day there are periods when the number of active gamers drops, but the cluster could be used for other things.

 

[StrayKAT]

Yes, but when I own a "license" to use a software, I want to be able to use it at all time regardless on any machine without spyes lookin at my data and statistics.

XCloud will be a massive global scale spy network. People are already exposing personal information in unnecessary places such as gmail, google account, web browsers, erc. Imagine how exposed people will be on xCloud. Arent there already enough spy networks like facebook and similar? Hackers will be in full blood more than ever once xCloud gets a hold of people.

Me: fake personal info wherever I go. Google account especially. My internet is temporarily, and even if someone is tracking my location, thats useless because Im registered on a completely different living location. So Im actually not here where I am now. So XCloud just gives me shivers.

I don't use a fake Google account per se.. but a pretty useless one. More like a Youtube account for just tracking subscriptions/playing lists. If people are compelled to spy on that, so be it.. but I'm not giving them everything. It's literally retarded how much CAN be stored.

 

[notb]

I don't do anything except game and mod games, for the most part (and occassionally ordering stuff). And some art related to that. I also read books.. but I could read real books all the same. Then I hop around boards like this.

Well, at very least you're using this forum.

I'd assume you also have a job, right? I'm pretty sure there's a computer somewhere in the company.
One day you'll arrive at work and they'll say: "hey man! We've moved to cloud today!". And what? You'll quit? Become a lumberjack?

 

[StrayKAT]

Yes. Servers won't use more electricity, nor create more heat, than personal computers do. They're more effective thanks to scale.

Have you ever heard about HPC clusters?
We know how to organize large computing machines since... well... since the beginning of electronic computing.

The fastest HPC system today, Summit, has 28 000 V100.
It's roughly equivalent to 100 000 mainstream gaming GPUs like a 1060, so exactly the number you've mentioned.
Summit uses just 13MW of electricity. That's 130W per PC that it could "theoretically" replace. A typical gaming PC with a 1060 would use twice as much. I hope now you're at least a bit less worried about an ecological catastrophe.

To put that into perspective, I've found an information that up to 20 mln people play games on Steam at the same time. Obviously, we would need many of such datacenters, but it's clearly a feasible idea.
Another advantage is that we would have no waste in computation power. Each day there are periods when the number of active gamers drops, but the cluster could be used for other things.

Your world sucks. Clouds, shared computation power, probably self driving cars and biometrics to boot, am I right?

Well, at very least you're using this forum.

I'd assume you also have a job, right? I'm pretty sure there's a computer somewhere in the company.
One day you'll arrive at work and they'll say: "hey man! We've moved to cloud today!". And what? You'll quit? Become a lumberjack?

Stop asking me personal questions. lol. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. Don't worry. I've got it covered.

edit: PS I don't use the same email account on this forum.

 

[Sebastian-san]

I don't use a fake Google account per se..

You should. I even broke apart and threw away the sim card I uses the number of, to create a google account on an inexistant name. It was an old sim form back in the days of anonymously buying simcards.

 

[StrayKAT]

You should. I even broke apart and threw away the sim card I used the number of, to create a google account on an inexistant name. It was an old sim form back in the days of anonymously buying simcards.

There's no reason I shouldn't, I guess. I just figured what I have on Google is still almost as useless.

 

[Bill_Bright]

It does matter because I pay for it to matter.

This is a very old argument I first put forward way back in the early 80s when I used to make copies of my Commodore software, and back in the early 70s with my music and copying my albums onto reel-to-reel. It took me awhile to realize how licensing worked and even though I paid for it, it is not mine to do whatever I want with it. Again, you need to accept that, or don't buy it.

No it is not. Dont run from the subject. XCloud is the next spy super-network. Ideal for globally connected government hackers.

Oh no! Government hackers! LOL Here we go again. Time to invest in tin!

I really don't disagree with you about the cloud being unsafe. I don't trust the cloud to keep my data from being compromised. But from government hackers? Come on! If you are worried about government hackers, then good. You need to be. Me? I'm doing nothing illegal on the Internet so I am not worried about the government.

Bad guy hackers stealing my data and identity? Yeah, I worry about them.

 

[Sebastian-san]

There's no reason I shouldn't, I guess. I just figured what I have on Google is still almost as useless.

Of course. That way if your account gets hacked or sold only the device trace will be on it, without your real name etc. And always remember to turn of your history storage data completely at https://myactivity.google.com/

And in the browser you use, go to windows privacy settings and turn off locations tracking by the search engine. And feel free to use VPN. NordVPN is one of the best. Never login anywhere unless you know what you'll be saying (where to pinch but not too much). There is also free Tunnelbear. Just be sure to use it with incognito mode turn on in your browser.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I understand. I think the day is coming where you won't have a choice but to cloud game unless you are willing to pay up big time for a physical copy. And even DRM free games are not immune to cost factor benefits of cloud deployment.

Really don't think that is ever going to happen. However, I would rather not play games than do cloud gaming.

 

[Sebastian-san]

I really don't disagree with you about the cloud being unsafe. I don't trust the cloud to keep my data from being compromised. But from government hackers? Come on! If you are worried about government hackers, then good. You need to be. Me? I'm doing nothing illegal on the Internet so I am not worried about the government.

Im also not doing anything illegal. But that does not mean governments are not doing anything illegal with their hackers. Beings cautios does not represent something illegal.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Just to make it clear. I know that most people on this forum are against cloud gaming not because of some ideology or security.

How do you know this?

They simply like those hot boxes and want to keep them. But most people on Earth don't. They hate owning computers, but need them.

You don't don't seem to have the knowledge required to make that statement. You certainly don't have the right to speak for anyone but yourself on those points.

And while PC geeks started putting more and more LEDs in their cases, most people moved to laptops that they can hide in a drawer when not needed.

I sell PC's for part of my living and that is not why people by laptops. They buy them for portability.

People want to replace hot boxes with smartphones. They want the cloud and they'll get it.

While the trend of using a phone as a primary or exclusive computing device, everyone that comes to me asking about upgrade to their phone always complain about cloud usage and what to know if the 32gb limit stated on most phones is really the limit(it isn't) and if they can get something bigger. I keep a stock of 64gb and 128gb cards on hand for just such upgrade. People always leave my shop happy because they can use there phone/tablet the way they want to and not need cloud services which are slow and cumbersome.

I honestly don't care what most people want. If they make this a trend to the point that PCs as a whole die off

That will never happen. Rest easy. But if it does...

I'll just leave and find something else to focus on. I won't join it.

Right there with you..

 

[StrayKAT]

Im also no doing anything illegal. But that does not mean governments are not doing anything illegal without their hackers. Beings cautios does not represent something illegal.

I should point out that the line is blurred between what is government or corporate sometimes.

Did you know that DARPA was working on a platform that tracked a person's daily activities and whose goal to was to make comprehensive statistics on citizens' lives... It was called "LifeLog". It was shut down, because of certain watchdogs raising an alarm about it.

Funnily, it was officially shut down Feb 4, 2004.

Guess what was also founded that day: Facebook

But you know who I really blame? YOU (you in general). YOU. You're the idiots who signed up willingly and let it steamroll through the whole populace. You.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Just like social networks, on which people leave all their personal info.

Which is just foolish on all levels..

 

[Sebastian-san]

Well, at very least you're using this forum.

I'd assume you also have a job, right? I'm pretty sure there's a computer somewhere in the company.
One day you'll arrive at work and they'll say: "hey man! We've moved to cloud today!". And what? You'll quit? Become a lumberjack?

And why do you think he needs a job in the first place? He can just live off his savings until the next need for a temporary well paid job.

 

[StrayKAT]

 

[notb]

Your world sucks. Clouds, shared computation power, probably self driving cars and biometrics to boot, am I right?

Biometrics are OK, but I could live without them.
Self driving cars - of course. I love AI in general.

Stop asking me personal questions. lol. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. Don't worry. I've got it covered.

Chill out. There's nothing wrong about being a lumberjack. It's just the first job I though about that can do without a computer (...for now).

Im also not doing anything illegal. But that does not mean governments are not doing anything illegal with their hackers. Beings cautios does not represent something illegal.

Oh really? Mind telling how you collected thousands of FLAC files and several TB of Anime?

Also, I find it quite funny that you're minimizing internet access because of government hackers. That's very 90s-ish. The government most likely planted a GSM module in your PC and they're spying you all the time. You've said yourself that the PC is running non stop.

How do you know this?

I've trained a very robust neural network on my AWS cloud, obviously.

You don't don't seem to have the knowledge required to make that statement. You certainly don't have the right to speak for anyone but yourself on those points.

I'm working for the government and I know everything about you. You like Zelda!

I sell PC's for part of my living and that is not why people by laptops. They buy them for portability.

Biased observation. People that come to you buy both custom built PCs and laptops. Surely, the laptops are for portability.

When it comes to PCs, there only 1 person's opinion I trust: my girlfriend's. What she says is: Why did you buy a desktop? It only gathers dust and there are cables everywhere!
That's how normal people see computers.