DirectX 12 Makes Windows 7 Debut With Latest World of Warcraft Patch

[FordGT90Concept]

While I agree generally, change for the sake of change is rarely positive.

The list of changes is massive (windows 7 uses WDDM 1.1, Windows 10 October update is WDDM 2.5):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Display_Driver_Model

 

[eidairaman1]

While I agree generally, change for the sake of change is rarely positive.

To me if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

1.2 = introduction of "warps" for multithreading/scheduling (how GPUs handle compute and graphics workloads together)
1.3 = Miracast support
2.0 = allows closer to the metal graphics programming
2.1 = HDR10 support
2.2 = VR and AR support
2.3 = perfdata query (standardized way to get GPU load, GPU frequency, memory frequency, etc.--which lead to the detailed GPU performance view in Task Manager)
2.4 = D3D12 hardware video decoding and more perfdata (fan speed, temperature, etc.)
2.5 = DXR support and HDR tweaks

None of these things will ever come to Windows 7 because the display drivers simply don't support it.

 

[eidairaman1]

1.2 = introduction of "warps" for multithreading/scheduling (how GPUs handle compute and graphics workloads together)
1.3 = Miracast support
2.0 = allows closer to the metal graphics programming
2.1 = HDR10 support
2.2 = VR and AR support
2.3 = perfdata query (standardized way to get GPU load, GPU frequency, memory frequency, etc.--which lead to the detailed GPU performance view in Task Manager)
2.4 = D3D12 hardware video decoding and more perfdata (fan speed, temperature, etc.)
2.5 = DXR support and HDR tweaks

None of these things will ever come to Windows 7 because the display drivers simply don't support it.

Wddm could be rebuilt in 7, just ms is too lazy to do such...

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Again, no, because hardware vendors won't release drivers for it. They were annoyed with Microsoft when Microsoft announced they were extending support for Windows 7. Microsoft likely won't extend it again.

 

[R-T-B]

I've done a few network drivers. Never had problems.

I'm guessing certain OEMs aren't using the new NDIS6+ features. At least Intel and Realtek are though.

Wddm could be rebuilt in 7, just ms is too lazy to do such...

It's not laziness as much as it is commercial viability. It would take kernel work. It would cost money. Where's the return? Windows 7 no longer generates revenue. They want you on the profitable product. There is absolutely no reason to put in effort to lose money. It actually would be a violation of shareholder law, and possibly an offense against the shareholders in it's own right (unless they argued they were banking on good press to make them money or something, I dunno).

 

[TheGuruStud]

So the mass exodus begins?

 

[chrcoluk]

Please read the thread. All answers are within. It’s been said several times.

I suggest you read the thread, you just told me to read the thread to find answers that are not in the thread, I know because I checked before posting, and I checked again after your post.

So the question remains if anyone knows, how do windows 7 users download dx12? Is it confirmed also if its not on windows 8.1? Answers pointing to google or other search are not valid.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I suggest you read the thread, you just told me to read the thread to find answers that are not in the thread, I know because I checked before posting, and I checked again after your post.

Actually, that was answered. You didn't read closely enough.

So the question remains if anyone knows, how do windows 7 users download dx12?

You can't. All of the code/libraries that will contain the DX12 functionality will be included with an update to WOW.

Answers pointing to google or other search are not valid.

Oh yes they are. Telling someone to pop a quick query into Google for something easily researched is a perfectly valid answer sometimes.

 

[Sora]

1.2 = introduction of "warps" for multithreading/scheduling (how GPUs handle compute and graphics workloads together)
1.3 = Miracast support
2.0 = allows closer to the metal graphics programming
2.1 = HDR10 support
2.2 = VR and AR support
2.3 = perfdata query (standardized way to get GPU load, GPU frequency, memory frequency, etc.--which lead to the detailed GPU performance view in Task Manager)
2.4 = D3D12 hardware video decoding and more perfdata (fan speed, temperature, etc.)
2.5 = DXR support and HDR tweaks

None of these things will ever come to Windows 7 because the display drivers simply don't support it.

not everything microsoft puts in the DXGI change list is as things are, the 2.0 note is specifically the support of DX12, and as vulkan has shown Win10 is not necessary for closer to metal rendering.

...not to mention, microsoft has on a few occasions, mis-written the dxgi change list noting feature added under say, 2.4 that weren't added till 2.5.

Miracast was available to Windows 7 as WiDi (or more accurately, Miracast is the evolution of WiDi.)
HDR is present on 7 and 8 via vendor driver api's
VR and AR don't require DXGI, but an exposed framwork helps accelerate development
Perfdata query introduced compatibility regressions with other utilities that could do it first.

etc.

Now adding these to the DXGI ecosystem is useful, it brings things together under windows 10 more coherently, but it is not and will never be the only way to get things done.

 

[Deleted member 177333]

Ya I'm still running Win7 x64. And I have no plans to move to Win10 until certain games or apps require it. I use Win10 at work, and IMO, Win7 is simply a better OS.

 

[eidairaman1]

I suggest you read the thread, you just told me to read the thread to find answers that are not in the thread, I know because I checked before posting, and I checked again after your post.

So the question remains if anyone knows, how do windows 7 users download dx12? Is it confirmed also if its not on windows 8.1? Answers pointing to google or other search are not valid.

Go back and read post 1

 

[FordGT90Concept]

not everything microsoft puts in the DXGI change list is as things are, the 2.0 note is specifically the support of DX12, and as vulkan has shown Win10 is not necessary for closer to metal rendering.

Vulkan runs legacy mode (using OGL draw calls) on Windows 7, if it runs at all. Performance is much worse because OpenCL/Vulkan piggybacks on the unified shader design DirectX pioneered.

Miracast was available to Windows 7 as WiDi (or more accurately, Miracast is the evolution of WiDi.)

Implemented in the driver rather than software on top of the driver.

HDR is present on 7 and 8 via vendor driver api's

Not Windows itself.

VR and AR don't require DXGI, but an exposed framwork helps accelerate development

Which is what standards do--provide guidelines and direction. One could hack VR support into Windows 7 but it's not going to work as well as it does on Windows 10.

Perfdata query introduced compatibility regressions with other utilities that could do it first.

Extremely hacky: hooking into drivers themselves (requires different calls for different vendors), hunting for, and interpreting that data. Now drivers expose that data so any application can easily query the performance counters.

 

[Sora]

Now drivers expose that data so any application can easily query the performance counters.

And windows uses an unsafe local mutex for some of them making other applications unsafe to use, or having the capability disabled entirely (Aida64/Hwinfo base clock detection)

Vulkan runs legacy mode (using OGL draw calls) on Windows 7, if it runs at all. Performance is much worse because OpenCL/Vulkan piggybacks on the unified shader design DirectX pioneered.

No it doesn't.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Vulkan runs legacy mode (using OGL draw calls) on Windows 7, if it runs at all.

Incorrect. Doom 2016 runs better on 7 than it does 10. I ran that benchmark personally recently to settle a debate we were having in the shop. Granted the difference was small, but it was a measurable 4%.

Performance is much worse because OpenCL/Vulkan piggybacks on the unified shader design DirectX pioneered.

Also incorrect. OGL pioneered shaders with the help of IDGames/John Carmack back in the heydays of the Quake series. Microsoft piggybacked OGL with a twist and was late to the game with it.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Incorrect. Doom 2016 runs better on 7 than it does 10. I ran that benchmark personally recently to settle a debate we were having in the shop. Granted the difference was small, but it was a measurable 4%.

Let me guess, NVIDIA GPU? Vulkan/OpenGL didn't make much difference on NVIDIA:
https://www.eteknix.com/doom-opengl-vs-vulkan-graphics-performance-analysis/5/
...the reason why Vulkan gets a big boost on AMD cards is because the GPU is spending less time waiting for the driver running on the CPU.

4% can also be explained easily by driver differences (Windows 10 driver dev forked from Windows 7 driver dev a long time ago, optimizations for Doom 2016 may have been overwritten by optimizations for newer games released since then).

Also incorrect. OGL pioneered shaders with the help of IDGames/John Carmack back in the heydays of the Quake series. Microsoft piggybacked OGL with a twist and was late to the game with it.

Unified shaders were introduced in Direct3D 10/Vista.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Likely because they gave Vulkan more optimization love than OpenGL version.

Maybe, who knows. Though to be fair, that's a test I didn't run.

Unified shaders were introduced in Direct3D 10/Vista.

Ah, I see what you were saying. However, as OGL still introduced shaders to begin with, it's still a case of Microsoft piggybacking, even if they came up with a new way of doing it.

 

[rtwjunkie]

So the question remains if anyone knows, how do windows 7 users download dx12? Is it confirmed also if its not on windows 8.1? Answers pointing to google or other search are not valid.

They DONT!!! Which means you didn’t frickin read. It will be issued as a game patch, to work only with WoW!!!

In addition to post 1 (as @eidairaman1 mentioned), I also had already restated the issue clearly.

Direct source here:
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/di...arcraft-uses-directx-12-running-on-windows-7/

 

[Easo]

It can be done.

Sure, just need your own company. At which point I think maybe, just maybe using W10 normally is way easier than going out of your way to get LTSB/C/whatever it is called now to avoid some issues, whether they are real or not.

 

[R0H1T]

How does Vulkan work without kernel level support? Simple, doesn't need it.

Incorrect.

Also incorrect.

Your statement shows you don't really understand how things work.

It'll be whatever Blizzard wants to implement.

DX12 is tied to WDDM, therefore Vulkan isn't directly comparable.

Is that it, I suppose you wouldn't like to elaborate on that or maybe not?

For emulation - no it's not incorrect.

Really, which part of that do you think I don't understand?

No, it's totally up to MS.

Microsoft is pleased to announce that we have ported the user mode D3D12 runtime to Windows 7.

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/world-of-warcraft-uses-directx-12-running-on-windows-7/

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7889/...w-level-graphics-programming-comes-to-directx

 

[Sora]

DX12 is tied to WDDM, therefore Vulkan isn't directly comparable.

No it isn't, and microsoft have just proven the claim that it is was a farce.

 

[R0H1T]

No it isn't, and microsoft have just proven the claim that it is was a farce.

Tied doesn't mean mandatory.

 

[Sora]

Tied doesn't mean mandatory.

till now, the implication was that of mandatory.

theres back pedalling gone down in this situation.

 

[R0H1T]

till now, the implication was that of mandatory.

theres back pedalling gone down in this situation.

Yes tbh that was a fair assumption given what MS said in the past & they've backtracked on that, it still doesn't take anything away from the fact that WDDM under win10 introduced many kernel level changes which aren't possible on win7 without rewriting lots of code -

-

 

[MyTechAddiction]

Just to add gas on the fire: AMD added support for DX12 in their latest driver for W7
"
Support For
.
.
.
DirectX® 12 on Windows®7 for supported game titles

• AMD is thrilled to help expand DirectX® 12 adoption across a broader range of Windows operating systems with Radeon Software Adrenalin 2019 Edition 18.12.2 and onward, which enables consumers to experience exceptional levels of detail and performance in their games

"

I really wonder how this slipped by "Kill W7 QA team".