3800X build bad performance - what am I doing wrong?

[tabascosauz]

@ecopsorn gotta answer the question man. Have you ever tested the parts on an open air bench or outside of the case?

What does HWInfo show for all your temperatures at idle? Are they all still as high as the other software reports for your CPU, GPU and SSD?

Quite honestly, going Intel wouldn't be a terrible idea at this point if the money isn't an issue for you, and no one would blame you for making that decision. Sadly, AM4 is not and has never been a rock solid, plug-and-play platform like the majority of Intel platforms have been. Chances are, you may also get better thermal performance out of a Comet Lake -K SKU; Ryzen does run hotter as a result of thermal density, despite all the Comet Lake power consumption memes.

But do remember that if the case indeed turns out to be the culprit here for your temperatures, any new build would suffer the same fate.

Are you applying enough paste to cover the entirety of the IHS when the cooler spreads the paste?

 

[TheLostSwede]

@ecopsorn which AIO cooler did you get?

You should really be under 40C at idle, even with normal background processes running if you have a half decent cooler.

Have you tightened up the screws properly on the cooler? Once you've tighten it up, do all screws one more time to catch the last bit of slack.

I really don't understand what's going on with your system, as you just keep having problem after problem after problem. This isn't normal.

This was my system temperatures back in September from a different thread here. Not the ideal screenshot, but it shows the CPU idle temp at 34C, with it being at 46C with a light load on it after having run some load tests.

@ecopsorn
Sadly, AM4 is not and has never been a rock solid, plug-and-play platform like the majority of Intel platforms have been.

Speak for yourself. After AGESA 1.0.0.4 I have had zero stability issues. Plug and play, well, sure, it has had issues, but by now the platform is is in general not having any major issues except the odd memory compatibility.

 

[tabascosauz]

Speak for yourself. After AGESA 1.0.0.4 I have had zero stability issues. Plug and play, well, sure, it has had issues, but by now the platform is is in general not having any major issues except the odd memory compatibility.

No, that's not my point, no need to get defensive. The memory compatibility is, and although Matisse has certainly reduced the number of issues, such compatibility issues on Intel platforms post-Sandy with the sole exception of X99 just don't happen nearly as often. And I mean, it's exactly as you said, 1.0.0.4 is damn near flawless now with pretty much all the significant bugs worked out, but I'm sure you remember what it was like from 1.0.0.1 to 1.0.0.3AB. That's the firmware that the hardware launched with, and that's the kind of problem that those Intel platforms don't share. It took three months for 1.0.0.4 to roll out to (almost) everyone.

@ecopsorn What confounds me is that my idle temperatures (as with most other users with a decent cooler and latest firmware) look like this:

So aside from a thermals issue, I don't see anything else that could affect all these components equally as it does yours. It was a suspicion on your previous board that maybe the I/O controlling the sensors was defective, but as it's continued to the the new one that's clearly not the case.

 

[ecopsorn]

give me a sec, on the phone, will write soon

 

[TheLostSwede]

No, that's not my point, no need to get defensive. The memory compatibility is, and although Matisse has certainly reduced the number of issues, such compatibility issues on Intel platforms post-Sandy with the sole exception of X99 just don't happen nearly as often. And I mean, it's exactly as you said, 1.0.0.4 is damn near flawless now with pretty much all the significant bugs worked out, but I'm sure you remember what it was like from 1.0.0.1 to 1.0.0.3AB. That's the firmware that the hardware launched with, and that's the kind of problem that those Intel platforms don't share. It took three months for 1.0.0.4 to roll out to (almost) everyone.

You somehow quoted someone else...

Wasn't trying to be defensive, simply suggesting I feel different at this point.

I think I was one of the loudest, most annoyed people here when it comes to the crappy boost speeds of my CPU, which it turns out is actually a really good chip, so yes, I remember really well. However, we're coming up on close to a year since launch and all the really stupid issues have been fixed, agreed?

Yes, AMD did a crap job with the launch, but as have been discussed elsewhere, they're a comparatively tiny company to Intel and don't have the money and resources Intel does. This leads to more limited resources to go around not only when it comes to making and testing their AGESA implementations, but also to work with the board makers. Intel tends to send over their local FAE guys to the board makers up a year before launch, with a reference platform and CPUs for them to test and tinker with. AMD turns up six months before launch with a box of bits and a good luck card. Ok, so that's a bit exaggerated, but it's not that far from the truth. AMD does in all fairness have an office in Taipei, but the closest board maker to that office is good old DFI.

 

[tabascosauz]

You somehow quoted someone else...

Yo all I did was click the +Quote button. TPU is possessed, I swear.

But yeah. I won't hold it against them for being a small company with limited resources and a shit ton of old boards to support, and the performance and affordability more than makes up for it (well, for most users, anyways). But if you happen to always be an unlucky dude (which I am, if only you knew of my row with Ford and GM last year, makes my initial struggles with Ryzen look nickel-and-dime by comparison), that could be a small reason to consider Intel instead.

 

[TheLostSwede]

View attachment 157417

Yo all I did was click the +Quote button. TPU is possessed, I swear.

It might've been an old quote thing held over, the +Quote thing works a bit odd sometimes.
That person is going to be really confused next time he/she logs on...

But yeah. I won't hold it against them for being a small company with limited resources and a shit ton of old boards to support, and the performance and affordability more than makes up for it (well, for most users, anyways). But if you happen to always be an unlucky dude (which I am, if only you knew of my row with Ford and GM last year, makes my initial struggles with Ryzen look nickel-and-dime by comparison), that could be a small reason to consider Intel instead.

Next time, get a Honda

Well, it sucks having bad luck, regardless of what you've bought. I really feel for the OP and it seems so do you and I guess that's why we're trying our best to help him out, no?

At this point, I'm really at a loss though.

 

[ecopsorn]

Summary Post - I give up - all parts will be returned
First of all, so many thanks to all of you, especially @TheLostSwede @tabascosauz @Fry178 @A Computer Guy @oxrufiioxo and all others I forgot to mention.
You showed some nerves helping me, but I'm at a point now where all further testing, tuning and replacing parts are pointless.
For many parts, especially the newest ones, I can return without money lost. For all other components, I'm getting in contact with the vendor to see how I can return it, otherwise I'm gonna open a warranty claim for everything and sometimes u get lucky and the manufacturer sends new unopened replacements parts that are easier to sell private.

I'm not immediately switching to another System, instead I'm trying to figure out first how to get rid of all the components and in summer when I have vacation I will buy new ones.
You will certainly see me around in this forum asking to check a new components list so I won't make the same mistakes as I did before.

This is not the first rig I've built but the first one where really shit hit the fan.

I've learned a lot and what I'm certainly gonna do with the next build is firstly test it in an open test bench as @tabascosauz suggested and doing all what you've tought me in regards to win install and getting the first benches and bios settings in order to check whether all is normal.

If I wait until summer, I will have enough time to think about the components and read reviews. I will definitely go Intel next, but that doesn't mean I wanna flame AMD, I might have just had a real bad luck.
Regarding the case, I'm gonna head over to the Corsair forum and ask around if there are other people with temperature problems. Judging from the reviews, it shouldn't be though.

Thanks guys!

 

[TheLostSwede]

You don't think that's a bit drastic to just throw all the time and effort you've put into this, least not money as well, in the toilet so to speak?
The system is working no? Just because the temperatures are a bit off doesn't mean the entire system is a POS.
There got to be something going on here that all of us have missed.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I personally didn't expect the Godlike to do much of anything From about $300 onward with X570 the returns for buying better boards is extremely negligible especially when it comes to ram as the umc is usually the limiting factor. Temps do vary from board to board but usually by 5c or less and that's mostly down to how auto voltages work on each board and how boost happy Ryzen is. Switching to Intel is fine though.... My 9900k technically still outperforms my 3900X at stock by around 10-15% in the majority of Multiplayer games I play. BFV/CODMW/Fortnite/Gears 5. For non multiplayer stuff where I'm not trying to hit high fps and just game with max settings they're pretty identical though unless you look at graphs the whole time you're playing games. With a 2070 super they are unlikely to be any different even at 1080p.

Your not the first person that has seemed to have an unusual amount of issues with Ryzen... I think some of that is from people who are familiar with how an intel system works and some of that is the randomness of how Ryzen works when it comes to Temps and clocks and how Ram speed correlates to infinity fabric etc.

Hopefully come summer time whatever route you take works out better for you.

 

[ecopsorn]

You don't think that's a bit drastic to just throw all the time and effort you've put into this, least not money as well, in the toilet so to speak?
The system is working no? Just because the temperatures are a bit off doesn't mean the entire system is a POS.
There got to be something going on here that all of us have missed.

Of course it is drastic, I knew that getting a flagship Motherboard won't suddenly give me better benchmark results, but having worse throughout every test I throw at it, that's just silly.
In the end the g.skill rams I got also didn't really help. Yes they have a much better latency and 2000mb/s more read/copy Speeds, but in the end, they were also not the slightest bit OCable in my System (with the old and the new board). As an off Topic, why every second word gets uppercased now lolz.

The thermal aspect in regards to the case lots of you mentioned could of Course be the reason because the Corsair QL fans are definitely just look Pretty but are otherwise Pretty trashy. But yes I want it all, a quite System, a RGB System as well as a good Performing System .

And speeking of time and effort lost, I don't see it the same way. I've learned very much from you guys and that was already worth the 15 pages of Forum thread. Lots of my recent purchases however were silly (and yes I was Aware of it haha), but I wanted to see where "no compromise" brings me.

In the end it is better for me now to get back to the drawing boards for an Intel System, just keeping the GPU is certain, fans and case I'm still unsure and all the rest gotta go (including PSU as a possible error source).

I personally didn't expect the Godlike to do much of anything From about $300 onward with X570 the returns for buying better boards is extremely negligible especially when it comes to ram as the umc is usually the limiting factor. Temps do vary from board to board but usually by 5c or less and that's mostly down to how auto voltages work on each board and how boost happy Ryzen is. Switching to Intel is fine though.... My 9900k technically still outperforms my 3900X at stock by around 10-15% in the majority of Multiplayer games I play. BFV/CODMW/Fortnite/Gears 5. For non multiplayer stuff where I'm not trying to hit high fps and just game with max settings they're pretty identical though unless you look at graphs the whole time you're playing games. With a 2070 super they are unlikely to be any different even at 1080p.

Your not the first person that has seemed to have an unusual amount of issues with Ryzen... I think some of that is from people who are familiar with how an intel system works and some of that is the randomness of how Ryzen works when it comes to Temps and clocks and how Ram speed correlates to infinity fabric etc.

Hopefully come summer time whatever route you take works out better for you.

Hehe, yeah I know, going Godlike was definitely a desperate move but I'd really thought that it actually helps in whatever means, but it didn't.
And again, I don't want to flame Ryzen but I've built About 8 rigs in my life so far (I know that's not a lot), but out of These 8, two were AMD and with both I got Problems. It can still be just bad luck, but you know once that's in my head, I just don't feel like going Ryzen again and even trying to tweak some more now.

I won't post benchmark stats anymore, but with the new board and the AIO, the only bench that was still the same is CB20, all others, including SSD, GPU, Memory, and all other CPU related benches were worse.
I take it slow now and open a new thread soon to get a nice System running for summer, probably I will see one or the other from this thread over there hehe

 

[tabascosauz]

It is a bit drastic, but I respect your decision. It's never easy troubleshooting something so problem-ridden regardless of what that thing might be. If my last 2 trucks were any indication, sometimes it is best for your sanity and your future luck to swallow the financial loss and move on from a total lemon. To be fair though, I would consider the case highly suspect and expendable before I give up the other parts in this situation; mainstream cases aren't terribly expensive, and neither are they built to exacting standards.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to build/not build next. I'm sorry we couldn't help you find the culprit in the end. Personally, I'm excited for Rocket Lake and what that might bring to the table, so I'm minimizing the amount of money I put into AM4 so I can afford to supplant my Haswell platform with something finally worthy from Intel.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

If I had as many issues as you'd did I would have switched to a 9900k for my second primary system in a heartbeat and never reccomended ryzen 3000 to anyone but fortunately I've been lucky through 7 ryzen 3000 builds to be pretty trouble free other than an Aorus Master dying.

To be fair other than my personal system I keep the majority at stock and with 3200 CL14 for the majority of them as that's a good balance of stable on any chip and good performance.

 

[ecopsorn]

It is a bit drastic, but I respect your decision. It's never easy troubleshooting something so problem-ridden regardless of what that thing might be. If my last 2 trucks were any indication, sometimes it is best for your sanity and your future luck to swallow the financial loss and move on from a total lemon. To be fair though, I would consider the case highly suspect and expendable before I give up the other parts in this situation; mainstream cases aren't terribly expensive, and neither are they built to exacting standards.
Best of luck in whatever you decide to build/not build next. I'm sorry we couldn't help you find the culprit in the end. Personally, I'm excited for Rocket Lake and what that might bring to the table, so I'm minimizing the amount of money I put into AM4 so I can afford to supplant my Haswell platform with something finally worthy from Intel.

Thanks man, yeah it is manly because of my sanity lol.
I will really also consider the case/fans as a root cause for bad thermals, but funny thing is that this case is discussed a lot in the corsair forums and I haven't found a single negative post in therms of thermals.
Has it been leaked already if the Rocket Lake ones will be compatibly to the motherboards for the newly released Comet Lake-S LGA 1200?

If I had as many issues as you'd did I would have switched to a 9900k for my second primary system in a heartbeat and never reccomended ryzen 3000 to anyone but fortunately I've been lucky through 7 ryzen 3000 builds to be pretty trouble free other than an Aorus Master dying.

To be fair other than my personal system I keep the majority at stock and with 3200 CL14 for the majority of them as that's a good balance of stable on any chip and good performance.

I have never intended to do ram OC in the first place except enabling XMP. Only because of my bad ram stats (latency, copy, read, etc.) and my very bad CB20 scores and long boot times (initial issues when I started the thread), I started to tweak ram according to the suggestions here.
I don't need the a maxed OC computer, stability is more important for me and I realized now that noise is another big factor for me. Having the Corsair 150i pro rad installed made it clear for me that AIO is not for me. I can't stand the sound of the pump, even when set to Quite in the software.

Saying that, I have to be super careful for my Intel builds motherboard choice. I would really like my Noctua to do the cooling, so I don't have to sell that one. I might be even able to put the second fan on than hehe, just seems hard to find rams with a low profile nowadays and of course I would have to pass on the RGB than.
@oxrufiioxo : what case do you use in your profile pic? that seems very sexy. But it looks like those are thermal take fans, right?

 

[oxrufiioxo]

They're also QL fans.... The top 4 are LL.


011 dynamic XL look it up you'll love it. Much better thermally than the 570X

 

[Chrispy_]

Every test I'm runnin gright now (Intel burn test, geekbench, Aida photoworxx, hell even the GPU timespy test give me worse results than on the old board.
I don't think I'm gonna test much more and disasemble everything again, send it back or sell it and start from scratch with Intel

Oh my god, does this entire thread exist just because you can't get intel-beating benchmark scores in Intel benchmarks?

Intel burn test - Intel's own benchmark/test?
Geekbench - more of a memory latency test than anything else - massively favours monolithic dies and Intel architecture.
Aida photoworxx - where a Skylake quad core from 2015 matches a Ryzen 3700X? Again, this almost exclusively a test of DDR4 with mild variations depending on CPU used.
GPU timespy - gaming, where the GPU matters most, but Intel architecture is consistently faster, even at matched clocks to AMD.

Have you checked that your scores match other 3800X scores yet? Maybe you have already and there's a valid issue but I'm not reading through 16 pages of this to find out!

 

[ecopsorn]

@Chrispy_ - hehe nah din’t bother reading it all. But it hasn’t been an e-pen contest. I had too many problems with the whole system including instability, windows acting funny, restarts not actually restarting etc. I only started benching to see if I’m close to what I should get, all conpared to other similar 3700x or 3800x setups.
Any way, already taking the rig apart

 

[TheLostSwede]

Has it been leaked already if the Rocket Lake ones will be compatibly to the motherboards for the newly released Comet Lake-S LGA 1200?

It was confirmed by the board makers. Also, why else would they bother adding PCIe 4.0 switches, if the next CPU wouldn't support PCIe 4.0?

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
One thing I can say about the z490 formula is the dual m.2 slot is so narrow I can't use my blow style heatsink on a sammy evo or evo plus 970
They run pretty warm 61c-69c on temp 2 just using CDM test
That pretty bad the fan heatsink was both temps at 45c max.

Couple of gigabyte monster pci-e 4 m.2's have copper heatdsinks already these will not fit on my board.
m.2 card it is I guess.

 

[A Computer Guy]

@ecopsorn which AIO cooler did you get?
....
You should really be under 40C at idle, even with normal background processes running if you have a half decent cooler.
Have you tightened up the screws properly on the cooler? Once you've tighten it up, do all screws one more time to catch the last bit of slack.
....

I agree. When I was using H100i 38c was pretty typical for me.
Good mounting pressure is a good point as well.

Summary Post - I give up - all parts will be returned...

Looks like I missed the party ... I was going to reply sooner but missed the chance. Perhaps thermal paste application issue because 3800x uses a chiplet design so the die is not center. From my first experience applying using h100i using the dot method I made the mistake of not applying even pressure and squished the paste away from where the chiplet was into the empty chiplet area. This resulted in higher temps for me due to lack of coverage. Once I corrected this I was getting much better temps.

When you disassemble your system look at the paste pattern on the CPU if possible and see if you got complete coverage.

Anyway good luck to you. It seemed you were so close to having a great running system.

... 011 dynamic XL look it up you'll love it. ....

I have the little brother 011d and it's pretty good although I kinda wished I went for the XL instead but it wouldn't fix on my computer rack. If your considering the 011d and plan on stuffing a lot into the case I say go XL instead.

The only issues with the 011d I had were the expansion card mounting holes were a tad bit off keeping my GPU from seating properly. Luckily after I installed the EK block on the GPU it fit much better so it was a non-issue after a little bendy-bendy of the frame in the right spot.

The thumb screws seemed pretty cheap like one day I'm gonna have to drill them out after they snapoff.

Also the EK rads don't quite fit properly in the side compartment which I didn't know until later after coming across some forum posts across the internet , but since I only have 1 rad it didn't matter anyway.

My motherboard didn't have the right connector for the front panel USBC so I have to find something that might work.

In the side compartment behind the motherboard I ended up using a corsair ssd mounting bracket to mount a 2.5'' ssd without squishing the power cable and zip tied the corsair commander to it. If your're into corsair RGB this is an excellent place to stash it with convenient access to all the ports. This trick might apply to the XL as well. I had some unused LL120's laying around so I decided to use them and they seem to be good enough for now.

( pardon the lack of cable management...it's still on the to do list )
( oh yes that an 80mm fan on the GPU, I forgot to remove it after some testing )

http://imgur.com/a/2Wi7mf9

And yes there is a towel in the lower rack cause it's my first custom loop and I am still a bit paranoid.

 

[ecopsorn]

I agree. When I was using H100i 38c was pretty typical for me.
Good mounting pressure is a good point as well.





Looks like I missed the party ... I was going to reply sooner but missed the chance. Perhaps thermal paste application issue because 3800x uses a chiplet design so the die is not center. From my first experience applying using h100i using the dot method I made the mistake of not applying even pressure and squished the paste away from where the chiplet was into the empty chiplet area. This resulted in higher temps for me due to lack of coverage. Once I corrected this I was getting much better temps.

When you disassemble your system look at the paste pattern on the CPU if possible and see if you got complete coverage.

Anyway good luck to you. It seemed you were so close to having a great running system.



I have the little brother 011d and it's pretty good although I kinda wished I went for the XL instead but it wouldn't fix on my computer rack. If your considering the 011d and plan on stuffing a lot into the case I say go XL instead.

Hehe no hard feelings, told the others, all your help is not in vain.
When I removed the block, the thermal paste looked spot on, but of course I could have tried again. But to be honest, I couldn’t bare the pump noise, also on the quite setting. I rather have fan noise than the high pitched pump noise. I don’t know if there are quiter ones out there or if there’s a way to make the corsair quiter but I believe I stick to the Noctua for the next build.

The 011d or XL one will likely be the case I choose. @oxrufiioxo showed me his rig already. I do like the the razer version but it only comes in the smaller form factor. Since I’d like to put a rocket raccoon boblehead in there somewhere I do believe I need the XL hehe. Also my MSI trio x is pretty long. Haven’t checked details of the case yet though

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Here's some builds I worked on with the Regular 011D It's also very solid but I didn't care for the build quality compared to the XL

Also the razer version is cool but not as impressive in person.






Here's the 2 XL version I worked on First two images are my PC.

 

[tabascosauz]

@oxrufiioxo If anything, the O11 would help with the airflow I know someone who populates his O11 with 15 x A12x25 fans including the ones on his air cooler.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I agree it does really well regardless of how its used... I've stuck with AIO cooling for the better part of the last decade but the case does really well with tower heatsinks also you just have to make sure the height of the cooler is compatible.


The temps are better than my 500D se but I didn't have temp issues even with a 2080 ti and 9900k in that case. Airflow wise the 500D is slightly worse than a 570X. The 011 is definitely better than both by a mile though.

 

[ecopsorn]

I'm continuing my journey over here, haha