3800X build bad performance - what am I doing wrong?

[Waldorf]

@ecopsorn
yes, chipset driver, reboot, then sata, reboot, then usb, reboot and then gpu,
and i usually wont go online for updates until those are all installed.
i would shut it down afterwards and do a full backup of the OS drive with sw like True Image.
this way if anything goes "wrong", you dont have to worry about reinstalling everything,
and recovery from ssd (even external) usually doesnt take more than 2-5 min.

 

[TheLostSwede]

There u got me confused a bit. Yes I need the rgb stuff but have not seen any of the software I install for rgb (Msi dragon center, razer synapse, corsair icue) to install anything firmware related.
In any case the chipset driver is the first driver I install in a fresh windows.
I know that none of these software packages are particularely easy on resources but I need them nevertheless. Won’t install anything though before I have my performance where I want it to be with proper ram tweaking.

 

[A Computer Guy]

There u got me confused a bit. Yes I need the rgb stuff but have not seen any of the software I install for rgb (Msi dragon center, razer synapse, corsair icue) to install anything firmware related.
...

I think razor synapse maybe related to Polychrome Sync. It may be different for others but here is what mine looked like and upon opening it may attempt a firmware update.

https://imgur.com/a/RJ9zkSO

 

[ecopsorn]

Someone may have given you these links already (sorry too lazy to look back into thread)
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-memory-tweaking-overclocking-guide/
https://www.techpowerup.com/download/ryzen-dram-calculator/
But the number one thing that helped the most was simply finding others with the same or similar hardware and trying those settings to get me close to where I needed to be.
Good luck!

Love it or hate it you can use https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/ to do a quick and dirty test if your OC is going the right direction. You may see see in some cases the performance of other components change. Rather than looking at pure memory performance (other tools for that) you can glimpse at overall system performance and see additional impacts of your OC.



The RGB one was pretty sneaky. I thought it was just software I didn't need only to find out later in some far corner of the internet forums that it actually did a firmware update.

thanks for the links, regarding OC I'm all set with plenty of guides that have been provided throughout the thread hehe.
The userbenchmark.com site is new to me though, will have a look.

yes, chipset driver, reboot, then sata, reboot, then usb, reboot and then gpu,
and i usually wont go online for updates until those are all installed.
i would shut it down afterwards and do a full backup of the OS drive with sw like True Image.
this way if anything goes "wrong", you dont have to worry about reinstalling everything,
and recovery from ssd (even external) usually doesnt take more than 2-5 min.

I do it like that as well except that I was used to do windows updates first after chipset and than the rest. Can switch that around and unplug my ethernet at the beginning.
I don't have any sata drives in my system and I actually was planning to disable sata in the bios completely. Just have my m2 and my server. That's a stupid question but just to confirm, it doesn't make sense to make sata driver updates when sata is not used and disabled, right?
For the rest, I do exactly that and I'm having fast boot disabled until all is clean and installed.

Regarding OS images, oh man the last time I did that was 15 year ago, it came in handy sometimes but when I finally decided to format c again, it always seemed better to me to work with a fresh, already updated build of windows instead of loading the image and doing updates than, but that was 15 years ago, what's the status on that nowadays? I don't have any image licences anymore so I'd need to buy one. It would definitely save me time when I screw installation up haha.

View attachment 156789

I'm aware of those Firmware update settings in iCUE, but aren't those firmware updates for the devices themselves? For example, I have lightning node pro, lightning node pro and commander pro. Actually since the new win install, iCUE thinks I have HYDRO X as well though which I don't. I did try to update it for all 3 but it always said I have the latest version installed

 

[A Computer Guy]

....
Regarding OS images, oh man the last time I did that was 15 year ago, it came in handy sometimes but when I finally decided to format c again, it always seemed better to me to work with a fresh, already updated build of windows instead of loading the image and doing updates than, but that was 15 years ago, what's the status on that nowadays? I don't have any image licences anymore so I'd need to buy one. It would definitely save me time when I screw installation up haha.
....

Make the Windows 10 USB stick installer with the latest version of Windows 10 ver 19.09. (minimum 18.03) That's probably the best option. It works well. God forbid don't use some old CD copy Windows 10 ver 17.xx bought from newegg then try to upgrade from that cause that will not work well at all. (been there done that)

Once you get Windows 10 on your NVMe and you want to reset it back to square one it pretty much a breeze using the reset option in Windows. I usually do a fresh install, test all the drivers and software for compatibility issues, benchmark and oc, the reset the os for the final configuration. As long as you don't damage your recovery partition in your OC testing, the OS reset should be easy and not a problem. otherwise the usb install is a good fallback.

Be prepared that you may likely damage your OS install as you go through the process of testing RAM overclock and you BSOD all over the place.
So once you prove your memory OC stable reset your OS and start clean then activate your OS when you're done playing around.

 

[ecopsorn]

Make the Windows 10 USB stick installer with the latest version of Windows 10 ver 19.09. (minimum 18.03) That's probably the best option. It works well. God forbid don't use some old CD copy Windows 10 ver 17.xx bought from newegg then try to upgrade from that cause that will not work well at all. (been there done that)

Once you get Windows 10 on your NVMe and you want to reset it back to squire one it pretty much a breeze. I usually do a fresh install, test all the drivers and software for compatibility issues, benchmark and oc, the reset the os for the final configuration. As long as you don't damage your recovery partition in your OC testing, the OS reset should be easy and not a problem.

Be prepared that you may likely damage your OS instillation as you go through the process of testing RAM overclock and you BSOD all over the place so once you prove your memory OC stable reset your OS and start clean.

ah so basically u use the windows recovery feature for the second clean install, I see. This never came to my mind that I could actually damage OS while doing RAM OC, that might explain loooots of my issues I had with the old ram because I did a ton of tuning lol.
good hint.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Oh yea if you didn't know HWiNFO64 and iCue don't play well together. Just don't run both at the same time that's all, in my case all the commander pro sensors stop working. HWiNFO64 can read fan and temp sensors from Commander Pro even after you close iCue or didn't start iCue on login.

 

[ecopsorn]

Oh yea if you didn't know HWiNFO64 and iCue don't play well together. Just don't run both at the same time that's all, in my case all the commander pro sensors stop working. HWiNFO64 can read fan and temp sensors from Commander Pro even after you close iCue or didn't start iCue on login.

Jep I know that, same here. Also Ryzen Master criples iCUE hehe

 

[oxrufiioxo]

On my Ryzen system I use icue only and do all tinkering in the bios.... 0 issues on either Asus hero or Gigabyte master motherboards.


The only thing that makes me sad about my Master dying is I could have gotten an Extreme for what I paid for both mobos


I am interested to see how the Godlike goes for you... I did do one build with the Strix E and thought it was pretty good but I didn't do much tinkering either most the systems I do for people I leave stock due to them having no clue what a bios is.

I did a msi unify build as well and thought it was pretty damn good so the Godlike should be even better. Other than the Master and Hero it's probably my favorite board I worked with. @ecopsorn

 

[Waldorf]

I would leave fast boot off, even after finish install.
especially once you get issues and you cant get into bios etc, is when ppl decide saving a second or two wasnt worth it.
a proper setup and install drivers for nvme/controller will virtually not see a difference in boot time anyway.

i would always activate all ports in bios (ethernet/sata etc) even if you dont use them (maybe audio if u use a dedicated card).\
once you installed windows (no drivers), you can turn off anything you wont use, but in case you need to later,
you wont have problems getting it to work, just install its driver.

using win restore/reset makes not much sense to recover win after playing around, as it takes longer since all data comes/goes to the same drive.
get the trial for True Image (works 30 days), and do a full (single) image of the os right after clean install.
anything goes wrong, no matter if drivers/updates etc, it takes not even 5 min and win is back up and running.

i usually do an image after all drivers, all updates, after tweaking os/settings towards hw etc.
this way i have any problems (update messing up/ infection etc), it takes me 2 min to load acronis (F11),
and restore a previous image. even with all stuff installed (2nd drive for games tho).
part of the reason why i still have a sata ssd, so i can image my os nvme/restore, instead of usb drive (still copy 1st and 5 or 6th image to another backup drive),
with OS drive right now being 40g b, takes less than 2 min to image (i use a 2nd nvme to save, than transfer to sata for storage/recovery)

Acronis

 

[A Computer Guy]

....
using win restore/reset makes not much sense to recover win after playing around, as it takes longer since all data comes/goes to the same drive.
....

Acronis yes can be a nice piece of software for imaging (I have used it a lot) but Windows 10 reset is plenty fast and simple when using NVMe, even with regular SSD too I would argue. The time it takes is insignificant compared to messing around with anything else when using using an SSD. There is little point in imaging a vanilla OS install unless you have a specific use case.

Instead image (for recovery) the install you are actually likely to use if you need recovery, for example after your finalized setup, after testing and installing all the drivers and programs you know you're going to use, and after activating Windows.

But that's just my 2c.

 

[Waldorf]

fact is, once i have an image, i have it.
i dont having to worry it not being "100%"ok.
corruption can happen/stay after reset, but never had an image that i couldn't restore in the past 13y.
and sure, it might be quick to reset if using ssd, but a restore from a second drive will always be the fastest.
and doing an image before updates, if OS gets messes up (happens more often then not), a restore takes me back to a state i know of,
takes max 2 min, definitely better than dealing with fixing/repairing stuff.
especially when using the boot loader, i can boot to true image os straight after POST.

just thinking about a drive failing (for whatever reason, not jsut age), i can put any drive in my rig, restore the image,
and im up and running 10 min later. not gonna happen with the OS doing normal backups/restore points.

 

[A Computer Guy]

fact is, once i have an image, i have it.
i dont having to worry it not being "100%"ok.
corruption can happen/stay after reset, but never had an image that i couldn't restore in the past 13y.
and sure, it might be quick to reset if using ssd, but a restore from a second drive will always be the fastest.
and doing an image before updates, if OS gets messes up (happens more often then not), a restore takes me back to a state i know of,
takes max 2 min, definitely better than dealing with fixing/repairing stuff.
especially when using the boot loader, i can boot to true image os straight after POST.

just thinking about a drive failing (for whatever reason, not jsut age), i can put any drive in my rig, restore the image,
and im up and running 10 min later. not gonna happen with the OS doing normal backups/restore points.

I don't think we have any contention regarding the use of Acronis or the use of secondary drives. My understanding of the OP's use case is simply they will be learning the ropes for a bit (having self-admitted noob status in the 1st post - nothing wrong with that btw) for they will be figuring out how to setup and tweak their PC first. It can be a lot of fun.

Afterwards they will have a better idea how to configure their PC hardware and software and presumably will be wanting to start "fresh" to erase any setup mistakes and/or OS damage they may have created in their endeavor to learn.

In this use case the 500% overhead needed with imaging before they have learned the basics of what they need to know - isn't very useful. The time it takes to reset (via NVMe or USB or whatever) won't matter because the point will be to start from the beginning again from what the OP has learned, then the prospect of creating an image is genuinely useful and all the benefits thereof.

 

[Waldorf]

lol, never said any of that, just pointed out its easier and saves time, especially if your mess/trying things.
there is no time saved in having to reinstall win and all drivers and updates, if something goes wrong.
its a lot easier to do a clean install, imaging it, and THEN start messing with it, and worst case or after all testing is done,
to restore (2 min) to get a fresh start, instead of reinstall/drivers/updates, completely ignoring basic settings that get lost (win theme/customization etc).
once its setup in acronis imaging or restoring will take a few min, not sure what overhead are you taking about.
and anyone having probs using T.I., probably shouldn't be messing with anything else (sw/hw).
and again, will also be helpful if there is a drive failure, and a new drive needs to be installed.

last but not least, its not up to you. i gave info to the poster, he/she can decide.
we're here to help, not make guessing decisions what someone might want (or not).

 

[ecopsorn]

@A Computer Guy @Fry178
Hehe no reason to fight u both have valid points and it helped me to think about it.
It is just best practice sharded and I appreciate that. Having options and seeing the different views of all u guys is all I need to decide for myself on how I wanna tackle it.
If there is anything unclear I’m gonna ask anyway

 

[A Computer Guy]

lol, never said any of that, just pointed out its easier and saves time, especially if your mess/trying things.
there is no time saved in having to reinstall win and all drivers and updates, if something goes wrong.
its a lot easier to do a clean install, imaging it, and THEN start messing with it, and worst case or after all testing is done,
to restore (2 min) to get a fresh start, instead of reinstall/drivers/updates, completely ignoring basic settings that get lost (win theme/customization etc).
once its setup in acronis imaging or restoring will take a few min, not sure what overhead are you taking about.
and anyone having probs using T.I., probably shouldn't be messing with anything else (sw/hw).
and again, will also be helpful if there is a drive failure, and a new drive needs to be installed.

last but not least, its not up to you. i gave info to the poster, he/she can decide.
we're here to help, not make guessing decisions what someone might want (or not).

I have no idea where your comment "its not up to you" came from but it's 100% bs.
He/she can decide of course. I don't know what you are hung up on.

You didn't understand my points of agreement and disagreement. Doesn't matter...moving on.

 

[ecopsorn]

I did have a thought about your fan speeds. Try making your outs faster than your in-s. I realize this might create negative air pressure however if the air from the GPU is recirculating the decrease in pressure between your intakes and outtakes may help move the warmer air away from your GPU faster reducing the re-circulation of warmer air. If this works you may get more even temps above and below the GPU. Also some negative internal pressure might help offset the static pressure from the filter making it easier for your intakes. Anyway just something to try.

Also after looking at your case design perhaps make the bottom front fan a bit faster than the top two to help create a pressure differential between the bottom and top parts of the case.

@A Computer Guy
I haven't tried the negative pressure yet, but having the bottom fan turn around 200rpm faster helped a bunch in terms of noise. I did have this strange hissing noise in the case and I'm sure it was some odd pressure difference. I'm already very happy getting rid of that
I'd wish I could do a smoke study in there haha

 

[A Computer Guy]

@A Computer Guy
I haven't tried the negative pressure yet, but having the bottom fan turn around 200rpm faster helped a bunch in terms of noise. I did have this strange hissing noise in the case and I'm sure it was some odd pressure difference. I'm already very happy getting rid of that

That's interesting news! I don't think I have ever heard a hissing noise from a case before. I was mighty tempted to buy that case you have but was unsure of the air flow due to the glass and filter at the time. I would be super interested to know if the other fan adjustments help with the internal case temps or not. I have another theory that using something for air deflection at strategic places in the case might help direct the airflow better and push the warmer air out from around the GPU. You might experiment with cardboard pieces and if something works get a custom cut piece of acrylic.

 

[tabascosauz]

@ecopsorn I've got a Dark Rock Pro 4 on the way, and am probably going to move my 3700X setup out of the M1 and into my TJ08 instead. The DRP4 and D15 are direct, comparable competitors and should make for some close comparisons, and my 3700X can boost closer to a lower binned 3800X both on ST and MT if I do some tricks with PBO. My concern is still that every one of your sensors seem to read on the high side by roughly the same margin; if not an issue of ambient temperature or case airflow, then I'm not sure what other culprits might exist.

My TJ08 has a Noctua Industrial NF-A14 in the front and regular NF-F12 in the back, both of which pushes plenty of CFM with or without the dust filter, but I can turn both off and we'll see how much of a theoretical difference having 0 airflow will make.

The notion that the tempered glass panels screw with the airflow isn't too convincing, offence not intended to whoever might have suggested that. All along the edges of the case, there are generously wide gaps between the panels for air to slip though. While I don't know how much static pressure the Corsair stock fans are capable of at low speed, the airflow situation in this case should hardly be any different than any other ATX tower that has a solid front panel and intakes through a gap in the side of the front panel. The S340 was one of those cases, and itself was nothing out of the ordinary on airflow; GN's review confirms that the 570X provides respectable airflow. If airflow was obscenely horrid, 570X owners on the web would not be boasting of it and resulting temperatures being "excellent".

I will concede the point that a close-fitted dust filter presents a static pressure challenge for any case fan, but it doesn't look too restrictive in the 570X, and again, from a quick survey of various forums, there don't seem to be any alarming standout issues in airflow from 570X owners. The GN review of the 570X has the fans at 1050rpm and 1500rpm, with a difference of only about 2C.


On a side note, because I can't quite remember, have you ever recorded the all-core boost speeds during CB R20 as well as the SVI2 TFN Vcore? I've heard about Asus overvolting chips for quite some time now, and although Matisse sustained Vcore will vary from chip to chip, it does provide a general idea of whether Vcore is roughly in the right place for a given clock.

 

[ecopsorn]

Gonna reply later to the new posts, working now
But I have one more big success to report. My GPU idle temp (with fans off) has decreased from 60°C to 41°C!
One youtube video, don't remember which one suggested to always use "Prefer maximum performance" setting instead of the default. I have adjusted this setting every single time since I've built the rig lol.

Now I did some more digging and this review made me switch back to "optimal" and my idle temps decreased by 20°C lolz
https://www.thefpsreview.com/2019/12/04/nvidia-geforce-driver-power-mode-settings-compared/

 

[Waldorf]

you wannna set it to adaptive.
optimal is mainly to conserve power on lappys.
for older/low load games (nfs rivals) you can set it to max to keep the card from dropping clocks because of low load (causing stutter)

 

[ecopsorn]

That's interesting news! I don't think I have ever heard a hissing noise from a case before. I was mighty tempted to buy that case you have but was unsure of the air flow due to the glass and filter at the time. I would be super interested to know if the other fan adjustments help with the internal case temps or not. I have another theory that using something for air deflection at strategic places in the case might help direct the airflow better and push the warmer air out from around the GPU. You might experiment with cardboard pieces and if something works get a custom cut piece of acrylic.

I did test the negative pressure setup now but it wasn't successful, temps were not meaningful different, but they were roughly 2°C higher on some parts (like ram). Anyway, I got a lot of dust flying around in my office because my wife got 2 sewing machines doing business in the same room , so I'd rather have a positive setup anyway hehe.

@ecopsorn I've got a Dark Rock Pro 4 on the way, and am probably going to move my 3700X setup out of the M1 and into my TJ08 instead. The DRP4 and D15 are direct, comparable competitors and should make for some close comparisons, and my 3700X can boost closer to a lower binned 3800X both on ST and MT if I do some tricks with PBO. My concern is still that every one of your sensors seem to read on the high side by roughly the same margin; if not an issue of ambient temperature or case airflow, then I'm not sure what other culprits might exist.

My TJ08 has a Noctua Industrial NF-A14 in the front and regular NF-F12 in the back, both of which pushes plenty of CFM with or without the dust filter, but I can turn both off and we'll see how much of a theoretical difference having 0 airflow will make.

The notion that the tempered glass panels screw with the airflow isn't too convincing, offence not intended to whoever might have suggested that. All along the edges of the case, there are generously wide gaps between the panels for air to slip though. While I don't know how much static pressure the Corsair stock fans are capable of at low speed, the airflow situation in this case should hardly be any different than any other ATX tower that has a solid front panel and intakes through a gap in the side of the front panel. The S340 was one of those cases, and itself was nothing out of the ordinary on airflow; GN's review confirms that the 570X provides respectable airflow. If airflow was obscenely horrid, 570X owners on the web would not be boasting of it and resulting temperatures being "excellent".

I will concede the point that a close-fitted dust filter presents a static pressure challenge for any case fan, but it doesn't look too restrictive in the 570X, and again, from a quick survey of various forums, there don't seem to be any alarming standout issues in airflow from 570X owners. The GN review of the 570X has the fans at 1050rpm and 1500rpm, with a difference of only about 2C.


On a side note, because I can't quite remember, have you ever recorded the all-core boost speeds during CB R20 as well as the SVI2 TFN Vcore? I've heard about Asus overvolting chips for quite some time now, and although Matisse sustained Vcore will vary from chip to chip, it does provide a general idea of whether Vcore is roughly in the right place for a given clock.

Yes, I want to mention again that removing the front glass panel did absolutely nothing to the temps, removing the filter however did cool down temps by ca. 2°C. I'm not looking to win an award for coolest system though, just needs to be decent by keeping dust out and noise as low as possible during idle, I don't really care about the noise during load since I wear a headset most of the times I play them games.

About the voltages, somebody else asked it once a couple of pages back in the thread and the voltages I provided seemed ok, but I just repeated another cb20 for ya with hwinfo open.
Here are the results acc. to hwinfo:
Idle CPU Core Voltage (SVI2 TFN): 1.406V
Idle SoC Voltage (SVI2 TFN): 1.087 V

CB20 Load CPU Core Voltage (SVI2 TFN): 1.262V
CB20 Load SoC Voltage (SVI2 TFN): 1.087 V

 

[Waldorf]

Get a simple box fan (20 in) and tape a hepa filter (20x20 filter) to it.
i would get at least MERV 8, better 10. running this will leave almost nothing in the room when it comes to dust.
also helps you not getting any respiratory issues down the road (from all the stuff flying around).

 

[ecopsorn]

Board arrived - tomorrow is x-change time, wish me luck

 

[A Computer Guy]

Board arrived - tomorrow is x-change time, wish me luck

Good luck. If there's any plastic peel go slow and savor the moment.