3800X build bad performance - what am I doing wrong?

[ecopsorn]

Still got a couple of questions ahead

1. MSI got a new beta bios driver, should I skip that one and go for the January one (7C34v18)?
2. Apparently today should be the release of Windows 10 2004 update, but when I create the windows 10 media with media creation tool, I don't see what the hell is copied on

 

[TheLostSwede]

Still got a couple of questions ahead

1. MSI got a new beta bios driver, should I skip that one and go for the January one (7C34v18)?
2. Apparently today should be the release of Windows 10 2004 update, but when I create the windows 10 media with media creation tool, I don't see what the hell is copied on

1. No
2. Don't worry about it, update later.

 

[Waldorf]

If you used the updated tool/online, you got the 2004, if not, just 1909.
there is a reason why MS has a new build, i prefer to go with the latest.
e.g. 3xxx cpus wouldnt even run with prior 1903 builds, so why stay with the old.

i installed it last night, runs fine.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Still got a couple of questions ahead

1. MSI got a new beta bios driver, should I skip that one and go for the January one (7C34v18)?
2. Apparently today should be the release of Windows 10 2004 update, but when I create the windows 10 media with media creation tool, I don't see what the hell is copied on

1. Generally you don't want to use a beta BIOS (it may be buggy) unless you really need something from it like a fix, or if you want to be a beta tester. For example originally I used a beta BIOS to get some ECC compatibility with the 3800x for my board until they were able to turn it around for an official release.

Minimally with Zen2 CPU's you're going to want a BIOS with AMD AGESA ComboPI 1.0.0.4 Patch B with Windows 10 19.xx (or higher) and the updated chipset drivers (I forgot what version) so Windows can use your CPU better. If your're using a lesser BIOS version and Windows 18.xx it wasn't well optimized for the new CPU's but I found you can turn off the CPPC preferred cores option in the BIOS to get a bit better performance in that scenario. You shouldn't have to worry about this too much at this point in time unless your going to explicitly use older BIOS and older OS for some unknown reason.

When flashing BIOS consider any memory overclock you have might get destroyed and you may have to retest to be sure your system is stable after the new BIOS is in place.

If your BIOS allows you to save custom profiles it may not be a good idea to load those profiles saved from a prior BIOS revision. I can't say that would be a universal advice for all motherboard vendors but for mine that was my experience. Simply recreate your profile and save over top the old one if it wasn't already erased by the BIOS update.

If you don't have any BIOS safety features that allow you to recover from a bad flash you might want to remove any CPU or RAM overclock before flashing your BIOS to reduce the risk of a bad flash.

Always check the vendors website for special bios flashing instructions. They may have notes you have to be aware of before you flash or recovery instructions if something goes wrong.

Also it might be a good idea to check around forums to see if anybody else had a problem with the BIOS you intend to flash to. It might save you some headaches if it turns out the version your about to flash has problems reported by the community.

2. When you go to the download page it should tell you.

 

[TheLostSwede]

If you don't have any BIOS safety features that allow you to recover from a bad flash you might want to remove any CPU or RAM overclock before flashing your BIOS to reduce the risk of a bad flash.

Sorry, but this is pure nonsense. How can you flash without a CPU and memory if you don't have something like a BIOS Flashback feature on the board? It's impossible.

If your BIOS allows you to save custom profiles it may not be a good idea to load those profiles saved from a prior BIOS revision. I can't say that would be a universal advice for all motherboard vendors but for mine that was my experience. Simply recreate your profile and save over top the old one if it wasn't already erased by the BIOS update.

More nonsense, it's not possible to load profiles from a previous UEFI, this is strictly enforced so you don't end up loading bad settings into the updated UEFI.

 

[A Computer Guy]

...
More nonsense, it's not possible to load profiles from a previous UEFI, this is strictly enforced so you don't end up loading bad settings into the updated UEFI.
...

ASRock had a faulty BIOS at one point that allowed for this very scenario. Don't know how prevalent this possibility is with other vendors.

Sorry, but this is pure nonsense. How can you flash without a CPU and memory if you don't have something like a BIOS Flashback feature on the board? It's impossible.
...

I think you misread...I said remove the overclock.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

ASRock had a faulty BIOS at one point that allowed for this very scenario. Don't know how prevalent this possibility is with other vendors.

Considering how much asrock seems to spend on their bios... I believe it. Asrock is the only mobo manufacturer that I still can't stand their bios. Although for AMD considering how little tweaking you actually need to do or even should do I guess that's a non issue.

 

[TheLostSwede]

ASRock had a faulty BIOS at one point that allowed for this very scenario. Don't know how prevalent this possibility is with other vendors.

I think you misread...I said remove the overclock.

Since the removal of the floppy connector, that hasn't been possible and still required the CPU and RAM to be installed.

Read what I quoted. You can not use profiles from a previous UEFI version, even if you saved them to a USB stick. This is to prevent issues from happening due to potential changes in how settings are done in the UEFI.

 

[A Computer Guy]

...
Read what I quoted. You can not use profiles from a previous UEFI version, even if you saved them to a USB stick. This is to prevent issues from happening due to potential changes in how settings are done in the UEFI.

I agree with the way you say it should work. Simply I don't know how I can explain my experience then. I've been though all BIOS revisions for my board trying to OC various ram kits since P1.90 and at least one of them was buggy enough to allow it. Saving and loading from USB was buggy too at the time so I just gave up on that feature early on and used the default save slots provided. Eventually they did start clearing the profiles during the flash which was consistent behavior with what I experienced on an MSI board I had for a short while.
https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X470 Master SLIac/index.asp#BIOS

Sorry, but this is pure nonsense. How can you flash without a CPU and memory if you don't have something like a BIOS Flashback feature on the board? It's impossible.
...

I didn't say you could. Let me rephrase....There are two bios safety features that I am aware of: bios flashback and dual bios.
If you don't have either of these two means of recovery my advice was to remove the overclocks on your CPU and RAM before you flash, to reduce the risk of a bad flash.

 

[TheLostSwede]

I didn't say you could. Let me rephrase....There are two bios safety features that I am aware of: bios flashback and dual bios.
If you don't have either of these two means of recovery my advice was to remove the overclocks on your CPU and RAM before you flash, to reduce the risk of a bad flash.

Sorry, misread that part. Even so, never had a problem flashing with an overclocked CPU or RAM, but YMMV.

 

[Chrispy_]

I seem to be subscribed to this thread but can't see why.

Can anyone TL;DR the last 15 pages for me?

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Sorry, misread that part. Even so, never had a problem flashing with an overclocked CPU or RAM, but YMMV.

I think some people keep borderline stable overclocks..... usually specifically for gaming and I could see them having a bad day.. Given that it's nearly pointless to overclock Ryzen I doubt that will be an issue for the OP on a new board.

I personally load optimized defaults prior to a bios flash either way.

 

[ecopsorn]

So mobo installed and realized that I’m fucked now... can’t use PCI-E slot 1 (only 16x) because of the mobo PCI-E arrangement and my big ass Noctua. Forced to use slot 2 now - can’t believe that I have to switch to an AIO after all now and sell Noctua again - someone shoot me in the face please

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I was sorta wondering about that the top slot did look mighty close to the cpu.....

 

[TheLostSwede]

So mobo installed and realized that I’m fucked now... can’t use PCI-E slot 1 (only 16x) because of the mobo PCI-E arrangement and my big ass Noctua. Forced to use slot 2 now - can’t believe that I have to switch to an AIO after all now and sell Noctua again - someone shoot me in the face please

You really don't have any luck at all with this build, do you?

 

[ecopsorn]

You really don't have any luck at all with this build, do you?

well there is not much I haven’t replaced so I gotta reach the goal sometimes haha

I pick up the AIO tmrw so I can still continue with bios flash install and all - tmrw putting the AIO on

 

[ecopsorn]

Hey guys. Still on the Noctua, AIO is here to be put in in an hour or so. First want to do some more ram tweaks.
This is what I have so far:

This is from the last run:

funny that I can't reach the second line read and copy speads yet, though they I am at 1T, any ideas? These minor tweaks all booted well, but yet again, when I punch in DRAM calc values, pystem won't even post.

I was actually dreaming about getting near bullzoids stats with the new board, but he runs 3800 and I can't get there at all. And actually this vid of him suggests that 3800 should be aimed for but in this thread it got more suggested to stick to 3600.

I know that the 4dimms instead of 2 won't make my life easier, but yeah would be happy to get a little more read/copy spead though I have no idea how that will affect anything gaming or video editing related.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Hey guys. Still on the Noctua, AIO is here to be put in in an hour or so. First want to do some more ram tweaks.
This is what I have so far:
View attachment 157287
This is from the last run:
View attachment 157290

funny that I can't reach the second line read and copy speads yet, though they I am at 1T, any ideas? These minor tweaks all booted well, but yet again, when I punch in DRAM calc values, pystem won't even post.

I was actually dreaming about getting near bullzoids stats with the new board, but he runs 3800 and I can't get there at all. And actually this vid of him suggests that 3800 should be aimed for but in this thread it got more suggested to stick to 3600.

I know that the 4dimms instead of 2 won't make my life easier, but yeah would be happy to get a little more read/copy spead though I have no idea how that will affect anything gaming or video editing related.

Looking at the screenshots it shows your GDM enabled. If I recall correctly when GDM enabled it overrides your command rate. In the 2nd line in the buildzoid spreadsheet indicates GDM disabled.

 

[ecopsorn]

Looking at the screenshots it shows your GDM enabled. If I recall correctly when GDM enabled it overrides your command rate. In the 2nd line in the buildzoid spreadsheet indicates GDM disabled.

yeah this is correct realized it now, unfortunately though the system won’t post with 1T. I varied dram voltage up to 1.45 v and played around with procODT, no post.
On the old board I also had a 2T setting getting better read/copy

by the way, on this bios, do u know which of the SOC is the one to be changed?

 

[tabascosauz]

I'm guessing Chipset SOC Voltage is the one? CLDO isn't the same thing, and 1.2V would be way high anyway.

As for memory bandwidth, you won't get to 55GB/s without 3733 or 3800. But 48GB/s is also way low. 3600 should be around 51-52GB/s, with tighter primary timings up to 53GB/s. Varies by board and chip, but 48 is too low. I'm pretty sure I could reach 48 with 3200/16.

Still racking my brain as to why 1T won't be stable at these speeds, can't think of any reasons why.

Can you run membench in DRAM calc to shed some light on the actual performance of the memory? Theoretical numbers in AIDA do not tell the whole story.

I always thought you had the D15S, instead of the D15 chromax running with 1 fan. The clearance is why the D15S exists; it's offset to the north side to allow space for the first slot. If you still had the D15, I was about to tell you that your chip was running way hot; with the Dark Rock Pro 4, mine stays at 72C no higher in CB R20 for 4970-5001 score, and I idle at 30-40C. Both coolers are time and time again tested to be neck and neck.

 

[A Computer Guy]

yeah this is correct realized it now, unfortunately though the system won’t post with 1T. I varied dram voltage up to 1.45 v and played around with procODT, no post.
On the old board I also had a 2T setting getting better read/copy

by the way, on this bios, do u know which of the SOC is the one to be changed?

Your UEFI/BIOS looks different than mine but I think for you it's labeled "CPU/NB/Soc Voltage". Remember your memory controller is in your CPU not your chipset. Be mindful when setting voltages, sometimes what you enter is not exactly what you get. For example my board I enter DRAM 1.355v and I actually get DRAM 1.360v. See if your motherboard manual can provide clarity for that voltage option.

It's possible you might need to adjust your DRAM SOC a bit higher (don't exceed 1.2v) but from the information I am aware of 1.1v and under is ok. For the limited extent that I dabbled in ram overclocking (now many months ago) more voltage (DRAM or SOC) isn't always better but you might need to simply "hit the right spot" on the voltages for it to work in conjunction with your other options. I believe this is discussed in the "AMD Ryzen Memory Tweaking & Overclocking Guide" although this article is a bit older now but it's what I used primarily as a guide for both Zen+ and Zen2 ram overclocking.

RAM overclocking was fun (and tedious) but eventually I needed to settle on something that was good enough and use my daily.

 

[ecopsorn]

I'm guessing Chipset SOC Voltage is the one? CLDO isn't the same thing, and 1.2V would be way high anyway.

As for memory bandwidth, you won't get to 55GB/s without 3733 or 3800. But 48GB/s is also way low. 3600 should be around 51-52GB/s, with tighter primary timings up to 53GB/s. Varies by board and chip, but 48 is too low. I'm pretty sure I could reach 48 with 3200/16.

Still racking my brain as to why 1T won't be stable at these speeds, can't think of any reasons why.

Can you run membench in DRAM calc to shed some light on the actual performance of the memory? Theoretical numbers in AIDA do not tell the whole story.

Was busy installing AIO yesterday - migt have time testing tonight again, thx

So guys - we are at 15 pages thread and I’ve just been awarded to post 100x
That’s pretty crazy.
Tonight is another testing session. If I can’t get decent ram stats, I’m gonna stick in the corsairs again. Can still give the g.skill back for no money lost. Probably I’m gonna hire one of u guys to finish my rig haha.

Now it is almost time to ulgrade CPU as the new matisse is approaching

By the way, here are some more idle temps with the new board and the AIO:
yeeeah I could threw up, much worse than with the old board because of some reason:
I'm running various stress tests now and check temps.

 

[tabascosauz]

55C at idle isn't impossible, but with the DRP4 now I only ever see temps like that if I'm launching a larger application or Windows is still loading right after logging in. Idle should in theory be lower under water.

Have you ever tested everything outside of the case? The case thermals is really the only remaining possibility I can think of.

The remaining bit of performance left on the table in R20 is easily attributable to the 80C load temps if it's still that hot. Matisse will not perform to its fullest potential if temps are significantly over 70C.

Also, take temps from HWInfo. What software are these screenshots even coming from? Are they showing the current values or maximum values?

 

[TheLostSwede]

The question is, is that die or package temperature?
The two tends to be quite different.

I think I idle somewhere around 35-40C with the odd peak here and there.

 

[ecopsorn]

I did run some intelburntest and geekbench now, but after 10min. the CPU still stays at 65. I'm already checking for hidden cameras, somebody has to be pranking me right now.
Of course the case temps would now probably not be optimised since I have 3 additional 120 fans in front of the rad...

The screenshot above was from Aida. At Intelburn test, under load it reached 80°C once, which isn't worrying me, but the Noctua was at 72°C. Of course it could be the same old story with thermal paste, but I hiiiiiighly doubt that.

Every test I'm runnin gright now (Intel burn test, geekbench, Aida photoworxx, hell even the GPU timespy test give me worse results than on the old board.
I don't think I'm gonna test much more and disasemble everything again, send it back or sell it and start from scratch with Intel