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AMD Designing Zen 4 for 2021, Zen 3 Completes Design Phase, out in 2020

bug

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Intel: 100k employees
nvda: 13k employees
AMD: 10k employees
You're quoting that like it's somehow an achievement to have fewer employees. Sure, it's impressive to bring the fight to a rival that has 10x as many (which is not an accurate comparison, an accurate comparison would be how many of those employees, on both sides work on CPUs/GPUs), but that stat is more like a measurement of AMD's inability to grow to the same size.
 

techmagnet

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As an owner of a 3900x I can confirm that it is not faster than intel in single threaded tasks. I seem to be getting within 5% the performance as a stock 9700k/9900k. With a little overclocking, the Intel cpu would push that gap further than 5%.

The problem is that ryzen 3000 are 4.2ghz chips, and boost doesn't really make the chip run faster except during idle loads. If ryzen 3000 actually ran at its advertised boost speed, then amd would genuinely have the faster chip.
I also have 3900x and very happy about it even if it didn't hit the advertised single core boosts. I'm proud about Zen 2 architecture over Intel's CometLake 10nm architecture. Intel's 10nm processors cannot hit 4.0ghz on Desktop platform no wonder all of them goes to laptop.
 
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I also have 3900x and very happy about it even if it didn't hit the advertised single core boosts. I'm proud about Zen 2 architecture over Intel's CometLake 10nm architecture. Intel's 10nm processors cannot hit 4.0ghz on Desktop platform no wonder all of them goes to laptop.
Don't get me wrong, I am happy with my 3900x. That doesn't mean it is without criticism.
 
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So much hype. Still can't beat Intel in overall performance.
Idiots/morons/kretins will always exists, ist an inescapeble fact of existence, like birth and death !

To get serious and on Topic, i have only this to add.
Intel is Faqed ! And im glad it is. I hope they bankrupt to be honest. They milked us all with incremental Performances increase, and People swalled it all, because there was no alternative. They knowingly throthled Progress for the sake of Profit. All a bunch of mortal greedy fucks, the whole lot of them. I hope they bankrupt, and die a teriblle death. Financially.

In the end, it is not they fault. The bigger Culprit is the "Babylonian Money Magic Slave System".
These are the reald fuks that need to be eradicated ! As Longs as Money exists, we will never be able to reach our true capable potential. Money will walways be in the way.
Money in itself Needs to be stoped being used.
 
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And we're back to trench warfare again…

The launch of Zen 2 marks the beginning of at least ~3 years of exciting years ahead. Both AMD and Intel have several new architectures (or upgraded architectures) lined up, which is something we haven't seen in many years.

I do hope AMD can continue to keep up the tempo and don't slow down the improvements with Zen 3...5.
Some rumors point to 4-way SMT and application specific instructions in Zen 3, but I hope these rumors are wrong, like most of the Zen 2 rumors were.
I can see 4 way SMT easily.
The only way I can see to reduce power consumption is to increase the number of threads, while keeping the core count the same.
An 8c/32t chip would be the max on desktops, but a 4c/16t would be equivalent to the current 8c/16t in most tasks.

Up to 4 threads, you only need to keep one core awake, which would mean you could clock it higher (better power envelope available compared to 2 core awake).
 
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Bytales is crazy if he thinks amd is faster than intel in single threaded, but and is the faster chip in the majority of circumstances.
 
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Idiots/morons/kretins will always exists, ist an inescapeble fact of existence, like birth and death !

To get serious and on Topic, i have only this to add.
Intel is Faqed ! And im glad it is. I hope they bankrupt to be honest. They milked us all with incremental Performances increase, and People swalled it all, because there was no alternative. They knowingly throthled Progress for the sake of Profit. All a bunch of mortal greedy fucks, the whole lot of them. I hope they bankrupt, and die a teriblle death. Financially.

In the end, it is not they fault. The bigger Culprit is the "Babylonian Money Magic Slave System".
These are the reald fuks that need to be eradicated ! As Longs as Money exists, we will never be able to reach our true capable potential. Money will walways be in the way.
Money in itself Needs to be stoped being used.
how is it intels fault they had no competition? Money needs to stop being used?
 
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I can see 4 way SMT easily.
The only way I can see to reduce power consumption is to increase the number of threads, while keeping the core count the same.
An 8c/32t chip would be the max on desktops, but a 4c/16t would be equivalent to the current 8c/16t in most tasks.

Up to 4 threads, you only need to keep one core awake, which would mean you could clock it higher (better power envelope available compared to 2 core awake).
SMT works by utilizing idle cycles in the CPU for other threads, which may be great if all you care about is total throughput of an unsynchronized workload, but not if the workload is very unbalanced or synchronized. This is why we already see up to 8-way SMT for some Power CPUs, but not in desktop CPUs. For desktops, the gains from SMT is very workload dependent, and there are diminishing returns as core count increases. With high thread counts, balancing the load becomes increasingly difficult for OS schedulers, which is one of the reasons why we sometimes can get performance penalties under the "right" conditions.

SMT was introduced at a time when we had single core CPUs and stalled CPUs was a big problem, and the cost of implementing SMT in hardware was minimal. But today, we can almost get as many cores as we want, and as IPC increases, the gains from using SMT decreases. More advanced architectures also increases the cost of implementing SMT, and SMT creates a lot of constraints for development of CPU microarchitectures. On top of this we have all the security implications which has to be dealt with in hardware. SMT also puts extra strain on precious resources like the prefetcher, branch prediction and cache. Any gains seen from increasing SMT to 4 threads will be minimal compared to 1 thread vs. 2 threads, it will be mostly relevant for specific server workloads. At this point it's time to drop SMT for future consumer architectures, and spend the extra die space on increasing IPC further, or adding additional cores instead. If you were given the choice between a 8c/16t CPU vs. 10c, the latter would kick the SMT CPU's behind in desktop tasks.

At a time where future performance scaling is mostly dependent on IPC (since we are at a clock speed wall and can get more cores than we can use), the focus needs to be on pushing more efficient CPU architectures. Even the heaviest threaded desktop workloads will ultimately be limited by performance per core, as synchronization overhead increases with thread count, which means faster cores is essential to continue scaling with more threads.
 

HTC

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Dunno if AMD is really planning 4-way SMT but if they are, it will be a great way to segment the chips. Think about it:

- server CPUs get the full 4-way SMT
- Threadripper CPUs get 3-way SMT
- desktop CPUs get 2-way SMT

High end desktop CPUs wont have nearly the same performance VS similar core count TR CPUs and the same will be true for TR VS Epyc CPUs.
 
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So, 2020's Zen3 is really a new architecture? Or is it Zen2+?
Or we don't know, but we write an article anyway because of page clicks?
The article explained one major difference. Try reading it.
 

bug

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The article explained one major difference. Try reading it.
No, it didn't. When it comes to the makers of Rebrandeon, the people that sell 3000 APUs that are really Zen+, I'm going to need more than "the article explained one difference".
 
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On my mobile I turn off the multi threaded stuff. Less heat, not much performance hit, and I get more runtime.

So meh at 4x SMT... 2c/8t getting spanked by a 4c/4t, in a most everything. Heh
 
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Not this Intel & AMD bashing. They are both not in the business for us they just want to milk us. Good news is that with competition they have to raise their products which is good news for us.so enjoy the competition and hope later a 3rd player enters the market for us consumers.wouldn't it be lovely if Nvdia as well decided to enter the cpu segment?
 
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Oh wow. So no Zen 2+ or Zen 3+.
I remember hearing that there won't be any "+" CPU's which is a great thing. AMD is moving head on in the right direction.
Can't wait to see how well ZEN 3 performs.

Not this Intel & AMD bashing. They are both not in the business for us they just want to milk us. Good news is that with competition they have to raise their products which is good news for us.so enjoy the competition and hope later a 3rd player enters the market for us consumers wouldn't it be lovely if Nvdia as well decided to enter the cpu segment?
I have to disagree to a certain extent. Sure AMD is in the market to make profits. Coming out with highly competitive products makes them profits and gives us consumers what we want. But Intel is in the Business for Milking Us, and they've proven this over and over again. For example, Intel caught paying Dell up to a $ Billion Dollars a year not to use AMD chips. We know this as fact, because Intel was forced to pay AMD Billions in damages. Intel does other crap to manipulate decisions by OEM's etc., and the many weird packages they offer Enterprise Clients with huge price premiums for absolutely nothing. Thank goodness AMD is kicking them in the teeth with EPIC.
 
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Not only that but this too...
Yikes!
Wow... that chip is maxing out at 3.2ghz, and Ryzen only beats it by 5-10% with over 1000mhz in additional clock speed.

Damn... Once Intel gets those cobalt connections stable... AMD better hope they get their shit together with the Ryzen 3.

As someone who does tasks that are punished by the 50% cut in RAM write bandwidth on the 3800X and lower...

The biggest take away is that competition is good for all of us. Intel is being pushed to innovate and compete and AMD is finally producing a product I want again. Last time I can honestly say that was with my Athlon XP-M 2500+ Barton... I had a 8320e, that was a good chip and didn't choke horribly on 32GB of DDR3, but it was hard that my C2Q kicked it's ass far too often.

Yum!

I say this as a person who owns an i7-8750H portable... I wanted an Xeon E-2176M based one, but the p630 only does 4K@30hz, the lowly 630 does 4K@60hz... so I'm really excited to see what comes to the mobile space with the true next gen stuff. Assuming they don't continue to cripple the ability to service and upgrade your machine.

As an example, I have an HP Elite x2 1012 G1, it has a micro-sd slot, usb-A ports, multiple m.2 internal slots, the wifi card is upgradeable, passively cooled and the user was allowed to open it, HP bragged about it.

The Elite x2 G3... well those all disapeared, it's actively cooled with fans that the stylus stalls if left on the 'wrong' areas of the screen too long causing it to overheat, the processor is hard throttled to 90% load max, and the user servicable part is the kick stand leg... *cries*

/rant
 
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Wow... that chip is maxing out at 3.2ghz, and Ryzen only beats it by 5-10% with over 1000mhz in additional clock speed.

Damn... Once Intel gets those cobalt connections stable... AMD better hope they get their shit together with the Ryzen 3.

As someone who does tasks that are punished by the 50% cut in RAM write bandwidth on the 3800X and lower...

The biggest take away is that competition is good for all of us. Intel is being pushed to innovate and compete and AMD is finally producing a product I want again. Last time I can honestly say that was with my Athlon XP-M 2500+ Barton... I had a 8320e, that was a good chip and didn't choke horribly on 32GB of DDR3, but it was hard that my C2Q kicked it's ass far too often.

Yum!

I say this as a person who owns an i7-8750H portable... I wanted an Xeon E-2176M based one, but the p630 only does 4K@30hz, the lowly 630 does 4K@60hz... so I'm really excited to see what comes to the mobile space with the true next gen stuff. Assuming they don't continue to cripple the ability to service and upgrade your machine.

As an example, I have an HP Elite x2 1012 G1, it has a micro-sd slot, usb-A ports, multiple m.2 internal slots, the wifi card is upgradeable, passively cooled and the user was allowed to open it, HP bragged about it.

The Elite x2 G3... well those all disapeared, it's actively cooled with fans that the stylus stalls if left on the 'wrong' areas of the screen too long causing it to overheat, the processor is hard throttled to 90% load max, and the user servicable part is the kick stand leg... *cries*

/rant
7nm is quite new, as it matures AMD will be able to boost those clock speeds even higher.
In the meantime, ZEN2 is doing quite well and climbing.
 

bug

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7nm is quite new, as it matures AMD will be able to boost those clock speeds even higher.
In the meantime, ZEN2 is doing quite well and climbing.
If that's your, maybe you should look at the 14nm story. Intel debuted Broadwell at 3.3GHz (3.7 turbo) and by the time they reached Coffee Lake, that base frequency only went up to 3.7GHz (4.0GHz if you count the 8086k, but that thing actually performed worse than the 8700k because of throttling). Turbo fared a bit better as it went to 4.7GHz. And those number only look so good because Broadwell was pretty poor on the desktop (which 7nm doesn't seem to be).
Personally, I'm more inclined to think future speed gains will come from architecture changes, but even there, we may be in the tweaking territory already. That said, between improved manufacturing and future architecture changes, I fully expect AMD to be able to squeeze another 20% out of Zen. I also expect them to start shifting resources towards mobile and GPU development, now that desktop and server CPU can sand on their own ;)
 
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If that's your, maybe you should look at the 14nm story. Intel debuted Broadwell at 3.3GHz (3.7 turbo) and by the time they reached Coffee Lake, that base frequency only went up to 3.7GHz (4.0GHz if you count the 8086k, but that thing actually performed worse than the 8700k because of throttling). Turbo fared a bit better as it went to 4.7GHz. And those number only look so good because Broadwell was pretty poor on the desktop (which 7nm doesn't seem to be).
Personally, I'm more inclined to think future speed gains will come from architecture changes, but even there, we may be in the tweaking territory already. That said, between improved manufacturing and future architecture changes, I fully expect AMD to be able to squeeze another 20% out of Zen. I also expect them to start shifting resources towards mobile and GPU development, now that desktop and server CPU can sand on their own ;)
I fully agree. :)
 
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Intel 14nm++ best

Coffeelake max (8086K)
Factory 4GHz base with 5GHz Turbo

Coffeelake Refresh max (9900KS)
Factory 4GHz base with 5GHz Turbo

Both max OC with extreme cooling or Delidding can reach max OC barrier of 5.3GHz AVX-2

So Intel 7nm vs Zen4?
 

B_Bang

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So much hype. Still can't beat Intel in overall performance.
Nice work Troll read the reviews on this site.

relative-performance-cpu.png


Intel 14nm++ best

Coffeelake max (8086K)
Factory 4GHz base with 5GHz Turbo

Coffeelake Refresh max (9900KS)
Factory 4GHz base with 5GHz Turbo

Both max OC with extreme cooling or Delidding can reach max OC barrier of 5.3GHz AVX-2

So Intel 7nm vs Zen4?
Intel 10TH Gen Desktop parts are still 14nm++++++++++++++++++ for now.
 

Jayp

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So much hype. Still can't beat Intel in overall performance.
What are you stuck on? Intel’s recent statement saying they are still marginally better without saying marginally?

As an owner of both the 3900X and 9900K and a very frequent high refresh gamer I can say if I had to get rid of both and build 1 new system I build with the 3900X or 3700X. Really the 9900K gets dragged through the dirt in heavily threaded apps. In games, when running tweaked memory I can close in on and often beat the 9900K. The 3900X and 9900K are so close in high refresh gaming running tweaked RAM that it could easily pass a blind test.

I could never get down with high refresh gaming performance of Zen and Zen+ but Zen2 is it and it’s funny because it’s doing it several hundred MHz under Intel and when I need to get work done the 24 threaded 3900X shames the 9900K.
 
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