Bad Performance

[trog100]

not an easy job being a moderator infrared.. i once got ask to be one.. a combat flight simulator forum.. the place ended up with page hits of 50 odd thousand a night and my online life became a nightmare trying to keep the peace.. he he he..

keep up the good work..

trog

 

[infrared]

Thanks

Wow, 50k hits per night... i couldn't handle moderating something like that, this forums quite nice, i rarely have to intervene, and almost everyone's got a good attitude.

~IR

 

[Megatron]

"Try this it should help a bit, claims HDR+AA"

some more misinformation.. posted with good intent.. this wont help in the slightest.. in fact it will do the opposite to help.. it will hinder.. hdr and aa together with cause a performance hit.. give more eye candy but less fps.. with a game like oblivion more eye candy is the last thing we need..

no offence intended megatron.. hope u didnt take any..

trog

Bear in my my suggestion was not "buy a new cpu", but "try this new driver", you are not saving the guy anything from discouraging him not to listen to me.

I dont have Oblivion, an x1900 or this driver.

Its not often that you get a driver "hotfix" from ATI, and whether HDR+AA is actually better performance than running either HDR or AA with the older driver is a moot point.

Ok here is the line maybe I have not read it properly (considering it has no benifit to me whatsoever):
"Crossfire support for the game via AFR mode. Good performance gains for all crossfire owners."

I still recommend trying this driver, there is nothing to lose.

If you get performance increase (without crossfire, and for the record I now doubt this fact), then great, if you dont; at least you have tried this option.

Personally I dont like the game itself on a few levels:
1) Its an RPG, and after being a star wars galaxies addict; I dont want more ever.
2) Its not a massively multiplayer game
3) Its a console port, and a poor one; Im not surprised the highest top end graphics cards are having trouble because "the way its meant to be played" is on a console.
4) I played morrowind and it took about 30min for me to decide it was not for me. I dont particularly like puzzle games, I got stuck on Max Payne. Im not just a "gaming thicko" however, in SWG I had a pre CU full temp jedi, and I made 270million credits selling weapons made with resources I had calculated to be the server best.


My post was just intended as a simple link, and I included a bare modicum of info just so that you could get the jist without having to actually click the link.

As I said I have neither this game, x1900 or the driver; really it doesnt concern me hence the lack of thorough reading.

Also if we are getting "technical", what you say about a cpu not improving performance full stop isnt quite true when ATI have integrated performance boost in the driver from having a dual core cpu. Correct me if Im wrong (which seems your forte) a AMD 64 3700+ is a san diego and therefore a single core.


Look at #2, possibly ATI is already aware of the slowdown in certain areas.


Known issues:


1. SuperAA with CrossFire in HDR mode is not enabled. If you have SupperAA enabled you will get the quality and performance of one card as opposed to two.

2. Rendering issues with grass shadows

3. On an ATI Radeon X1600XT CrossFire configuration, the game may intermittently crash if the resolution is set higher than 1600x1200

4. On an ATI Radeon X1900 series card, the game may crash while task-switching between the desktop and game (alt-tab).



ATI Engineering is currently investigating these issues. Updates will be posted as they become available.

 

[Megatron]

Regarding the actual issue of CPU, Ive read a thread on another forum and its been said that changing the res has no effect on frame rate. Thats a classic symtom of cpu limited, so Im not surprised that some people will say its cpu bound. Some people have been running their systems on max eye candy due to the fact that dropping it seemed to have no effect. Another reason to just run AA + HDR.

Personally I would find the tweaks which get around the problem with grass shadows and outside, and then try the major eye candy settings like HDR and AA on with high res and see if it impacts your system.

I agree that a 2.9Ghz 1Mb cache 939 cpu is good enough to not hold a x1900 back.

 

[bigboi86]

I would definatly loosen those timings and run it at a normal speed.

Slow running ram with tighter timings isn't going to outperform faster ram with looser timings.

Just look at the difference between DDR1 and DDR2.

Also, try running everything at stock.

Definatly put that ram in dual channel dude..

 

[noneed4me2]

throwin out some ideas, some games in the past were optimized for certain vidcards and changing the name of the exe file would sometimes unlock the games ability to work well with any video cards. Also with your nvidia chipset and ATI graphics card maybe there not playing nice together in this situation although I have yet to see much proof of it, again just an idea; as far as cpu performance i would have to agree with Trog in this case it should not be a limiting factor, I think Oblivion was just coded to run with all the bells and whistles only on the most extreme systems and even on the hardware out now this is still difficult. Your card should be able to handle this but again, just like Doom3 prefers Nvidia maybe this is just more of that coming into play.

 

[SeeK]

Okay. Lots of info, guys. Heh.

I am running the RAM in dual. I checked it in CPU-Z to be sure. Also, I have changed it a bit. Now the RAM is running at 414 Mhz at 2-3-2-7-1T. So, higher clock speed and tighter timings. Neat.

Also, I guess Trog is right. My CPU should not be limiting the GPU.

I've downloaded the hotfix, I'm going to see if it does anything to improve the performance.

 

[Solaris17]

do tell

 

[SeeK]

Hmm... I don't think it gave me HDR+AA (at least I can't notice any AA) but I think I do get slightly higher framerates. At any rate, it certainly did not make it worse.

 

[Megatron]

Hmm... I don't think it gave me HDR+AA (at least I can't notice any AA) but I think I do get slightly higher framerates. At any rate, it certainly did not make it worse.

Note: You will need to enable HDR and disable AA in Oblivion while enabling AA within the Catalyst Control Center.

I dont mean to be patronising but did you follow these instructions?

 

[SeeK]

Yup, sure did. Ah, I don't really care if it works or not. But it really seems to be flowing more smoothly now.

 

[trog100]

just to answer megatron..

"Its not often that you get a driver "hotfix" from ATI, and whether HDR+AA is actually better performance than running either HDR or AA with the older driver is a moot point."

its not a moot point to me.. AA has a performance hit.. HDR has a performnce hit.. the two of em together is likely to cause a bigger performance hit than either on their own..

"Ok here is the line maybe I have not read it properly (considering it has no benifit to me whatsoever):
"Crossfire support for the game via AFR mode. Good performance gains for all crossfire owners."

yep absolutely true.. oblivion was making a mockery of ati crossfile.. C/F was running slower than a single card it seems.. definely a need for emergency damage limition driver releases there..

"If you get performance increase (without crossfire, and for the record I now doubt this fact), then great, if you dont; at least you have tried this option"

true.. i tried the link myself but it didnt work else i would have the new drivers.. but from a single card performance point of view its a red herring..

"Also if we are getting "technical", what you say about a cpu not improving performance full stop isnt quite true when ATI have integrated performance boost in the driver from having a dual core cpu. Correct me if Im wrong (which seems your forte) a AMD 64 3700+ is a san diego and therefore a single core."

an AMD 64 3700+ is a san diego and therefore a single core is correct.. but clocked at 2.9 gig its faster than an FXF7 and will with any existing game.. out perform an FX 60 dual core cpu.. again we have the result of misinformation.. a commonly held belief that a dual core cpu will game better than a fast single core.. that belief is wrong.. seek does have the fastest gaming chip there is.. except for a similar chip clocked higher..

any dual core type patches released by anybody arnt to make dual cores go faster.. they are simply to make then work properly.. some things have problems with dual core cpus.. the patches are simly to fix the problems.. again another commonly held belief (assumption) which is wrong is that these patches are to utilize and take advantage of dual cpus to make games go faster.. they are not..

"1. SuperAA with CrossFire in HDR mode is not enabled. If you have SupperAA enabled you will get the quality and performance of one card as opposed to two.

2. Rendering issues with grass shadows

3. On an ATI Radeon X1600XT CrossFire configuration, the game may intermittently crash if the resolution is set higher than 1600x1200

4. On an ATI Radeon X1900 series card, the game may crash while task-switching between the desktop and game (alt-tab)."

all very true and all crossfire issues.. and all needing urgent attention..

#####

as for oblivion.. it can be set to play okay on a medium spec machine or it can be set to even cripple a top end machine.. i do have the game and have played it on an ati x850 card and an x1900xtx overcloked card.. it plays okay on either card but needs different settings.. certain scenarios still produce lows of 20 fps on my machine.. these are okay and still playable just worse case scenarioes.. i could get the fps up as high as i wanted but it would be at the expense of eye candy.. i have gone for a personal compromise between the two..

as for the xbox port stuf.. the xbox is a powerfull gaming system.. more powerfull than most PCs out there.. being an exbox port dosnt mean it should be easily handled by a PC.. it means the opposite if anything..

oblivion is a visually impressive and beautiful game.. with huge outside vistas.. i recon they have done very well to achieve the performance factor they have to be honest.. having played it for 20 or so hours i am impressed.. even thow it does bomb me out to the desktop whenever it feels like it.. he he

trog

 

[SeeK]

Mm-hmm. Oblivion really is quite the hardware killer. Well, I guess I'm satisfied with the performance I've got now. I'll just try not to think about the stuttering I get from time to time. If you just play the game without thinking about numbers, clocks and framerates, you can enjoy it anyway.

 

[KennyT772]

what i dont get is why all you people need it to be on high settings. i can run the game fine with only the view distance maxed ~40fps @800x600. if you cant play it at 1600x1200 with everything on high whats the real problem? its proven this game is unstable. its proven this game is beautiful and cripples most systems. what i dont get is why the 9550 and 9600 people are quiet and its the high end people crying.

 

[infrared]

I'm lazy and can't be bothered to google it... what type of game is oblivion?

 

[SeeK]

It's sort of an RPG. But you don't get EXP, you increase your skills by using them. For example, if you hack a bunch of enemies to pieces with your sword, your Blade skill will increase. It's a very natura way of getting better at things. When you have gained ten skill points you go up a level, and get to increase one of your seven attributes: Strength, Endurance, Speed, Agility, Willpower, Intelligence and Luck. It's a wide open game, the world is huge. You can do whatever you want, there's nothing you have to do. Of course, there is a main storyline you can complete.

Other than that, it's like most other RPGs. You run around killing monsters, get equipment and items. But it's oh so much more fun.

 

[SeeK]

Praise be Akatosh... it's working. HDR. And AA. Combined. I tried running at 1280x1024/HDR/6xTAAA/16xHQAF with all settings in the game maxed. Holy hell. I... this is amazing. Just wow.

A slideshow of pictures that are too beautiful to describe with my vocabulary. Shit. It really is increadibly beautiful. And I get ~5 FPS. Stunning. Wow. Amazing.

... Of course I cannot play with such a framrate. Therefore my current settings are 1280x1024/HDR/2xAA/8xAF at maxed settings. Flows pretty okay at ~40 FPS in Chorrol and about half that in forests. This shit is still very beautiful. I can't wait to get my hands on a X2900XTX. Then I'm going to play this game. At the top. Settings. Wow.

 

[bigboi86]

what i dont get is why the 9550 and 9600 people are quiet and its the high end people crying.

With a video card like that, you are used to low performance. Back in the day with my 9600, I sure as hell wasn't bitching about low framerates, because what else do you expect?

When you pay 400dollars for a video card though, you expect it to handle everything you throw at it.

People with high end video cards are gonna be let down when they can't play a game maxed out. You have to be an enthusiast to understand.

 

[SeeK]

Yeah, agreed. It kind of sucks, but at the same time... I'm really glad I've got the rig I've got. It could be much worse. Here I am, bitching about not getting ~60 FPS constantly in forested areas in Oblivion on top settings, while there are people who can't even play the game. Guess that's what being spoiled is like.

 

[trog100]

and i am glad that u are now happy seek.. he he

the old rules about playing everthing fully maxed out at high resolutions with top end cards do seem to have changed thow..

all these new effects need lots of grfx card power.. at least with oblivion its put to good use.. unlike fear for example where its wasted on boring grey concrete office blocks.. he he he

take a look at the beautiful canyon scene in 3dmark 2006.. look at the 15 fps.. chuck a few ai bad guys in there and think 5 fps.. then think xt4500000xtxtxxx before u are gonna see something like that in a game at 60 frames per second..

in many ways what u see in the latest 3dmark will take three years to become the norm in a game.. at the moment we are at the 3dmark 2003 level.. those dungeon trolls look very similar to what u see in oblivion..

trog

 

[SeeK]

Yeah, you're right. You'd think that this war between ATI and nVidia would put the hardware in front of the software, but MAN... the hardware is ages behind, it seems. Wonder how long it'll take before a normal gamer (I.E not sponsored with the latest hardware and tons of liquid nitrogen) get 19331 in 3DMark06. That's what I get in 03 now.

 

[peta01]

SeeK you are not right about that the hardware is ages behind. This is just matter of skill of programers. If you are good in programing and optimizing, you can make a very nice lloking game that has little requirements. My opinion is that the software developers (especially game developers) are the hugest brake of today graphic as seen in present games.

 

[trog100]

yes miles per gallon or pretties per horse power never gets mentioned..

its seems to me the hardware has the technical abilities to produce all these new pretties but lacks the basic horse power to produce the pretties and maintain decent frame rates..

its the horse power to produce the new pretties at playable frame rates we have to wait two years for..

trog

 

[markkleb]

If you dont like the card can I have it?

 

[xdaxxchampxx]

Strange I been playing oblivion on the default high setting 1280x1024 with hdr and even v-synch to clear up the jagged edges and I'm getting a constant 50-60 fps in the caves and about 35-50 outdoors and the lowest i have experienced is a few drops in the high 20s say about 27 or so. I am using the cat 6.3 without the Chuck patch and all seems well for me seeing as these are very playable rates for me especially with the eye candy this game gives you