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OFFICIAL Elder Scrolls V : Skyrim (Discussion)

MxPhenom 216

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wait a minute. with the Creation Kit. are we going to be able to add more polys and stuff? Like will some modders somehow add tesselation?

Steam hasn't started downloading the official 1.4 patch though
 
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at around 0:56 they mention sumthin about scripting, would it be similar to SKSE or can totally replace it? D:
 

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Patch is downloading now for me.

Steam says I logged 21 hours of playtime since yesterday. Something is amiss with their playtime.
 
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game just CTD's on launch now with latest patch.

Fix?
 

MxPhenom 216

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I highly recommend getting that mod I just posted. Realistic Colors and Real Nights.

what is the official patch version number?
 
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wait a minute. with the Creation Kit. are we going to be able to add more polys and stuff? Like will some modders somehow add tesselation?

Steam hasn't started downloading the official 1.4 patch though
No you can't add a DX11 feature to a DX9 game, you should heavily modify the game engine to do so.

Anyway the Creation Kit has nothing to do with the engine : it allows you to add content to the game, it's what they probably used to set up the Skyrim world (placing houses in place, scripting NPCs, etc.)

You are going to see custom mods that can be added as stand alone without replacing already existing armors and things like that :)
 

MxPhenom 216

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No you can't add a DX11 feature to a DX9 game, you should heavily modify the game engine to do so.

Anyway the Creation Kit has nothing to do with the engine : it allows you to add content to the game, it's what they probably used to set up the Skyrim world (placing houses in place, scripting NPCs, etc.)

You are going to see custom mods that can be added as stand alone without replacing already existing armors and things like that :)
damn, well someone needs to figure out how to add more poly!
 
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What do you mean by adding more poly? It's too generic
 

MxPhenom 216

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What do you mean by adding more poly? It's too generic
increasee the poly count so that things are able to render better i guess. I don't know, but I always hear crazy saying that texture mods can only do so much in a game where the poly/geometry count is so low.
 
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Actually increasing the poly count will numb down your rendering time because the more detailed a mesh is the more time and more resources are needed to draw the actual displayed image.

So you will want to decrease polycount,which is called optimizing, to get faster rendering times and thus more framerates.

The positive thing about increasing poly count would be more detailed meshes and thus a prettier game.

Anyway you can increase poly count even now, just open the mesh on a 3D suite like 3Ds Max or Blender and work with them to smooth edges and add details.
 
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I guess the creation kit is not going to come out until later.
 

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Actually increasing the poly count will numb down your rendering time because the more detailed a mesh is the more time and more resources are needed to draw the actual displayed image.

So you will want to decrease polycount,which is called optimizing, to get faster rendering times and thus more framerates.

The positive thing about increasing poly count would be more detailed meshes and thus a prettier game.

Anyway you can increase poly count even now, just open the mesh on a 3D suite like 3Ds Max or Blender and work with them to smooth edges and add details.
polycount dosent matter anymore,

Lost Planet = 3million peak
Dead Rising 2006 = 4million peak
Oblivion = 3-5million peak
Crysis = 2.8 - 4million peaks at 4.4mill or there about

notice all these games are console games they all stay below 5mill but interestingly enough, consoles only have gpu performance on par with 6800 ultra / 7800gs / gt or 1800xt / 1900xt cut down.
you realize that Oblivion back in 2006 with the Shivering Isle expansion has as far as i am aware the MOST polygons in a single scene im a bit rusty as its been awhile but it was near the 5,000,000 along with all the other trappings granted, a modder managed to drop them by near 50% but the point is even at 5,000,000 a 7800GTX 512 MB was able to handle it

polygon count means squat what bogs down gpus is shaders, post process effects, and multiple rendering passes,

examples: if rendering from the GPU on ALL polygon content could be offloaded to the tessellation engines with shaders relegated to doing shader work poly count would no longer ever be a concern, mostly the only reason to even think of polycount is do to the out dated consoles.

with tessellation if it was adapted to run all razterization aka render all triangles most modern GPUs could handle around 11,000,000 to when it comes with high end gpus around 20,000,000 +
 
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I read an article recently about whether the fidelity of PC computer graphics really was the end-all in what made games better.
The argument was that when you watch a HD movie, the definition of the most of the scenes does not have to have the detail level that PC games are trying to achieve as it does not add to the overall viewing experience. In some cases the high levels of color and contrast of PC games actually detracts from the immersion.

It was an interesting read and perhaps has some measure of truth.
 

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most of that problem kreij is due to lighting and effects,


most games use pre baked lighting aka fake the few games that used dynamic aka Crysis 1, have done away with it and gone back to baked lighting

the issue comes down to the fact that getting soft lighting soft shadows subsurface scattering of light on objects and through skin takes alot of render time, far more then polycount, so we tend to fake it

think of it this way are skin isnt just 1 color painted on its layer upon layer with light passing through it generating the color along with are own skin pigments, same applies to every other object light penetrates it to an extent

example of sub surface skin texture shader

now just think the below texture is missing normal map, bump map, and if its high res displacement map



typical game textures are Color / Spec / Normal


character the above map applies to notice it looks nothing close to realistic but its what we see in 99% of games


EXAMPLE: Full render using Subsurface skin scattering with multiple layers


in game face texture



if you look close the game face texture is good, but the problem is it still retains color based on 1 map, the full on multi layered skin effect in the first render is far softer more realistic that effect is starting to make its way into games but not fully, as calculating light penetrating skin is essentially dictated by a shader and light around the object must be calculated, again imagine that strain on every single object, this is where Ray Tracing comes into play but as you can guess they cant even get that working 100% in realtime with games from 6-8 years ago let alone on a titles as they are now lol.


add this kind of texture with the above epidermal etc maps you end up with nearly 6-7 texture maps all tied into a single shader just for skin texture


now look at texture sizes, 25mb give or take for 4096 texture map now do that across 6 layers 150mb in DDS textures used for games alone just for a realistic effect on a single character as you can guess this is why games wont look completely life like anytime soon.



and yes i realize this is a bit off topic, but essentially more polygons does give more definition its not polycount thats important, its silhouette

more polygons allow a better silhouette are eyes pick up on this
below is a low res mesh silhouette notice you can see the blocky aspects of the mesh are eyes pic up on this even when fully textured etc, its noticeable to us


a higher resolution model has less nickeling aka noticeable flat edges it gives a smoother more natural appearance, thus why more polygons is general better if it fits into the games budget, Skyrim is one of those games where more polygons would have done wonders for alot in game.

All the normal mapping bumps etc in the world can;t make a blocky object more real in the way are eyes perceive things.

Doom 3 is a great example, Normal maps added great detail but the meshes are so blocky the extra detail leaves it feeling wanting the silhouette feels wrong its to flat it gives the fake impression. to get a good silhouette that feels natural on say a character model takes around 45-60k polygons, normal maps can usually fake the rest fairly well, but still we always start with a high res mesh in the multi millions extract the normal place it on a smaller item and fake it, Until games can push ray tracing, with sub surface scattering with realistic lighting and shadows, along side high polygon counts things will always seem fake.
 
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I understand that Crazy, but devs have recently been concentrating on shader effects (and righly so) to make the what is seen on-screen closer to what one would see in an HD movie (given motion and an attempt to simulate peripheral vision effects).

Being an old school gamer I'm pretty happy with the vanilla Skyrim ...



 
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I understand what you want to say but even with the raw power at our hands given by newer graphics cards poly count must be in check because every effect is going to be applied on top of them, so the more you have then the more you have to spend in calculating a scene.

I know that Skyrim could have had the luxury of increased polycount but you can't say we can go around with as many as Poser models ingame, that would be impossible to handle.

Also less but better placed vertices are superior to many but badly placed vertices.
 

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thats just it,

a single 5850 with 1gb of vram was able to handle real time rendering at 45 million polygons with Ambient occlusion aka full on High Dynamic Range Ambient Occlusion with multiple texture layers at around 17-20 fps,

lighting extra on the polygons matters to an extent but normal maps means its simulating the polygons being there for the lighting,

so if we are going to fake the geometry being there and add the lighting anyway, its a moot point, the problem is the lighting itself,

the real world lighting affects everything and its not just 1 color its every color light absorbs and gives off color it bounces off all objects polycount still dosent mean anything here,

evidence of this can be seen in the damn unigine heaven bench,

a good example is Unigine Heaven on Low Tessellation even a 5770 can handle the load without much issue, im not talking about games using 20-40million peak on screen,

but the fact is even Nvidia Geforce 260+ and AMD HD 4870 can handle peak polycounts in the 10million range without much issue,

and in fact yes we can go around do you know how many polygons are in the CBBE body?

12,252 triangles with no head no teeth no eyes no ears no hair

mods with all those things with just a default body no armor is around 23,000-29,000 the body mesh is still there on armors as well even if you can;t see it meaning with some modded armors that same character will hit 45,000-65,000 and it has no impact how do I know this? because the same thing was done back in Oblivion and morrowind, the better bodies mod for morrowind had a very large polygon count as well along with alot of other mods still had next to no impact on frame rates back then i was running a 7300,

its the extras that come with polycount that really drop performance,

examples again 4096k textures, normal maps, spec maps, glow maps, add in particle effects etc everything contributes to the cost of the render yes. but in terms of performance drop polygons have less hit then almost anything else untill you hit the wall,

back in 2005 / 2006 the wall was 4-5million polygons in a scene, with the 8800 series gpus and later that wall was breached it didnt matter consoles are stuck at the same limitation aka of the last generation of DX9 gpus

but we also have to remember back then we used 256x256 or 512x512 texture maps HDR lighting wasnt common HBAO and SSAO were not used, polycount has remained stagnent as we push forward new tech, sadly consoles arent able to use any of it either really so its held back, polycount in most games could most likely be pushed up around 33-50% without any real issue.

another good example of this is Metro 2033 turn tessellation on or off it has a 1-2 FPS difference but in large character scenes it probably adds around 300-400k polygons

the simple fact is tessellation at 2x-3x is doable on just about every gpu in use for gaming right now, that would result in a typical game running at 4,000,000 to hit depending on objects and range of tessellation to be around 6,000,000 that change wouldnt impact the GPU enough to matter, but its one of those quirks 6 mill base could have been used with 8-9mill with tessellation added do to rasterizer rendering polygons on its own and tessellation just bumping up before render time.

simply put the PS3 / 360 are able to handle around 5 million polygons a frame at 30fps at 1024x768

an 8800gt is 8x the overall performance of gpus used in both those consoles,

The simple fact is hardware today is far more capable then you might realize the problem is coding hasnt caught up, simple because it dosent need to for the greater number of users,

look at Skyrim on console, look carefully at how much its really missing when the frame is rendered compared to PC and realize even a wallmart special is capable of greater fidelity.

If you want the more realistic look like HD movies, we have to move away from the CODE used today, thats the main issue right now. not polycount, not even really texture size crysis used Dynamic lighting a step in the right direction, now add in new code optimized for what we actually use.

Gamebryo engine is a perfect example of its time to retire it and start over, its base design is from around 2001, and hasnt changed since then
 
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its the extras that come with polycount that really drop performance,
This, this is what I'm saying on the post above or atleast what I'm trying to say. I completely agree, it's not the polycount alone, but what's coming on top of them.
 

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again that would be the post process effects and heres the kicker the hardware available CAN HANDLE IT NO ISSUE its CODING thats still the problem,

dynamic lighting is doable Crysis did it 5 years ago, interesting to note no one uses it now, its still faked lighting with bloom effects etc,

ambient occlusion isnt even neccesary its used because lighting in game engines is imprecise it dosent bounce around realistically thus it cant always shadow things properly thus AO is used to forcibly darken areas that need it this points back to lighting

thats why games dont look like the movies, we can push polygons where the need to be but old dirty code holds back the whole show,

Gamebyro based on Net Immerse code is ancient pre 2000 to late 2001, since then its had minor updates for Direct X but no major changes its cpu code is based on old x87 ancient code used in the 8086 days, its getting updated but updated code isnt new code, new streamlined code is needed,

COD another example of old code aka Quake 3 1999 based

the only game engine ive seen change the way things are done is the 4A tech engine used in Metro 2033, and even then its still heavily borrowing on X-Ray engine, but its getting close,

aka they stopped using threaded code and build the CPU backend to look at things like tasks, each physics calculation each animation is a seperate task that gets accomplished thus why CPU dosent matter so much, long as it meets the minimum theres seldom an issue, GPU code wise its terrible mess look at Direct Compute its used in a way that its not ment to be, slows up the whole show,

but to give you an idea:

4A tech engine performs on console 3000 tasks per 30ms Frame,
considering a PC CPU from the socket 775 days aka Core 2 Duo is capable of far more, even the minimum cpu today can handle all demands that game engine has, with quadcores and 6 core cpus increasing that nearly exponentially in terms of what i can handle vs what it needs.

again if we look at the way GTX 580 and 7970 are now if you used all those shaders to handle texture and post process, but force the tessellation engines to handle ALL geometry then visuals could be brute forced at this point, now a game engine that could do that would take around 3 years of coding, that means 2015 the 580 and 7970 will be entry lvl, let that sit in your mind a minute,

we already have the means for it now, just all code is pretty much worthless its old stagnant etc, thats the part holding us back, i can already render 45-70 million polygons in real time when sculpting in mudbox with Ambient Occlusion On etc thats running on a single 6950 and i hit a vram wall not a GPU one, :toast:

simply put developers can go nuts on polycount if they want right now it wouldnt hurt in the least. as what we actually need for good graphics in terms of polycount and what gets used tessellation wise are two very different things. just need tessellation engines to replace regular rasterization methods.


essentially it all comes down to something simple a saying my 3D Animation Instructor told me "Its not about getting something perfect that makes it real, its about making it imperfect"

rendering does everything perfect models are constructed from polygons that are math wise perfect, boxes are perfectly flat we know in real life this isnt so. Look at characters in most games faces are perfectly symmetrical in reality this isnt the case, its all those little things that add up ;)

I know im rambling and most wont understand what I am saying do to my inability to put periods anywhere.... but fuck it,

bottom line is we have the hardware today, to do what we see in movies in realtime, ancient unoptimized code inefficient APIs are the things hold us back,
 
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Yeah we can see that we are hindered by the software part at this point, one but significant and simple example is the fact that we still rely on archaic engines like you said that don't even know where multi threading lives.

The hardware is there, but we haven't the tools to tell the hardware HOW to do it.

When Bethesda said that they'd be using a new engine I was overwhelmed with infinite levels of happiness (not joking) because I really hate Net Immerse's Gamebryo. Then they came out with oh no no it's just a revision of the older engine -.-

I can understand them, they have to meet consoles standards and it would have cost them so much time and money that wasn't worthy in their eyes to do.

EDIT: we practically wrote the bottom line together :p

I know im rambling and most wont understand what I am saying do to my inability to put periods anywhere.... but fuck it,
No, no you are not rambling, I fully understand and consequently become sad thinking at what we could have by now if they focused more on the matter.
 

MxPhenom 216

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I know im rambling and most wont understand what I am saying do to my inability to put periods anywhere.... but fuck it,
Your what my last quarter english professor would call, a comma whore. :D
 

crazyeyesreaper

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people should be happy I use commas now I didnt use them until recently hahaha
 
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i remember the test/experiment long ago in Crysis, Widescreen vs square aspect ratio. It was 1280 x 720 vs 1280 x 960 i think. The 720 one had lower framerates despite having fewer pixels to draw, perhaps because of the polygon count it needed to display in the horizontal area (and the textures and shaders and lighting to be applied to the poly) is higher in the widescreen format (as displayed in the iDisplayinfo), square aspect ratios cut those extra horizontal data it seems and no change in the vertical space (well, im on a square res so most over the shoulder 3rd person games, the character is very close to the side lol)
 

MxPhenom 216

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nevermind guys on the Realistic Colors and Real nights mod. Im back to Enhanced Shaders. That other mod made me have like have a rubber banding effect in the dungeon i am in currently.
 
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