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Intel "Raptor Lake" Core i9 Sample Powers Up, 8P+16E Configuration Confirmed

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Honestly I don't see any reason against core segregation, I don't understand why you would go so high on the efficiency cores though except it reads well on core count I would have left it at 8 efficiency cores and used the space for more p cores.
 
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You can, its called AMD.



The brilliance of their big little implementation is unfortunately heavily hampered by the node they're baking on, and the fact they haven't moved to a chiplet approach yet. Its a bit of a chicken/egg conundrum if you ask me. Without the ancient technology that this architecture is built upon, the necessity for it pretty much evaporates, and this is shown live and direct by the direct competition.

Another perspective, though, is that the ideal product would marry both concepts: chiplet with interconnect, and several core designs next to each other. In both situations though we're looking at something that can clearly use refinement. But the strides that AMD is making on their chiplet end of the line, are much bigger per generation and over the course of Ryzen versus the samey-timed Intel releases.

It remains to be seen what truly is better. One thing is absolutely certain: the REASON these E-cores extract an advantage right now, is because these CPUs are barely ever pushed to their limits. You quite simply can't, you either run into its retarded boost limit Wattage cap, or you run into a cap you set for yourself after having met 241W once, or you run into heavily reduced clocks. Intel made a great CPU for low intensity consumer segment, but a shite CPU otherwise. This extends to gaming: gaming is a pretty light load, not parallelized at all, and barely loads cores fully, if ever. Not a huge surprise that ADL works for it and the E cores help a bit on background load.

Another aspect in this race is often forgotten: yields and production cost. I reckon AMD has a MUCH higher margin on Ryzen chips than Intel will ever get on their ADL line and followups. Fact is, they're still building monolithic chips and they make them per segment. Ryzen is just a slice of EPYC. And an underlying aspect in that, is that power consumption is going to matter. If you can't keep shrinking, you must go wider. I think the next GPU generation will drive that fact home for us. 450W on top end ADA...
I was engaged in your reply until 'but a shite CPU otherwise' comment even though Intel in Alder Lake has brought meaningful competition back to the CPU space, after all AMD are now dropping there pants (prices) across the 5000 range, thanks in part to Alder Lake. AMD had started to do an Intel by upping the prices of the 5000 series! but bias and 'feelings' no doubt plays a fairly big part in that comment and probably from the bad old days of Intel stagnation when they really had no competition and deservedly got a bloody nose from AMD! Thankfully, I am not in love with any company as I know they are a business and beholden to shareholders first and foremost, but I can recognise that we are in a good time for CPU's at the moment and long may it continue...
 
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This is the opposite of reality. I would love to see the "way worse" battery life tests.

Every review I've read of alder lake mobile has it stomping the competition, and doing so while on a larger less efficient node, barring the m1 pro (which is a completely different ISA on a smaller node).

Intel Core i7-12700H Review: Alder Lake on the Go |
Hardware Unboxed don't do test battery life, their goal is to test performance. If you watch Jarrod's videos you will see that AMD dominates battery life.
 

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I was engaged in your reply until 'but a shite CPU otherwise' comment even though Intel in Alder Lake has brought meaningful competition back to the CPU space, after all AMD are now dropping there pants (prices) across the 5000 range, thanks in part to Alder Lake. AMD had started to do an Intel by upping the prices of the 5000 series! but bias and 'feelings' no doubt plays a fairly big part in that comment and probably from the bad old days of Intel stagnation when they really had no competition and deservedly got a bloody nose from AMD! Thankfully, I am not in love with any company as I know they are a business and beholden to shareholders first and foremost, but I can recognise that we are in a good time for CPU's at the moment and long may it continue...
Context of shite cpu: the 'otherwise' refers to the segments where we have no business: enterprise, datacenter.
 

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I genuinely wonder what's the point of E cores for enthusiasts PC. Do they add anything at all for gaming? Wouldn't it be better to have just 10 to 12 P cores and no E cores?
Video games are made for consoles first, and consoles have 8 cores CPU until PS6 arrives in 5 years or so. 1 or 2 of those cores are used for OS so 6 cores / 12 threads only for games is more realistic. Also games are still targeted at last gen (PS4) because of chip shortage so there is no point for Intel to increase P core count for Raptor Lake. Later on, when they regain performance per watt lead they will probably increase P core count to 12 or 16 however don't forget there are people (not gamers) who benefit from army of e-cores.
 
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This should be a beast at CPU rendering. Gamers may hate on E-cores but those of us rendering footage for a living know the power of extremely wide, efficiency-focused rack server farms.

I wouldn't be surprised if this thing rendered faster than a 5950X. It's 24 cores vs 16 cores and for rendering, AMD gets about 1.4 effective cores out of SMT. I think an E-Core is more than 40% the performance of a P-Core, especially in a PL2-limited full-load scenario, and Intel's P-cores render slightly faster than a Zen3 core.
Of course it will render faster than 5950x - 12900k already does that in many cases, what this will do is beat it substantially at the same power or match it at a much lower one. Even overall I expect it to match 7950x in rendering and beat it most everywhere else.
 
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Of course it will render faster than 5950x - 12900k already does that in many cases, what this will do is beat it substantially at the same power or match it at a much lower one. Even overall I expect it to match 7950x in rendering and beat it most everywhere else.
12900K is definitely faster than 5900X in any CPU-rendering scenario, and that's 24-thread vs 24-thread.

Cinebench R23 is one that Intel wins for reasons unknown. My guess is that the room scene is heavily reliant on AVX2 which Alder lake does twice as fast as Zen3. The team here working on Cinema4D threw their jobs at the one and only 12900K rig I bought to test on and said it was slower by about 15% than their workstations (5950X).

Blender is another one that's hard to say which CPU is better for because it can favour Zen3 or Alder Lake depending on the scenario. Blender simulations aren't heavily-threaded and favour IPC on a primary thread. Blender rendering (no 3rd party renderers) favours the 5950X because it'll fully-load all cores quite easily. Blender really isn't a good candidate for CPU rendering though as it's one of the better products for GPU rendering and unless you have a potato GPU, that is the preferred option for anyone modelling and rendering in Blender.

For pretty much everything else I've ever heard of, pure CPU rendering will still always favour the 5950X in real-world testing because it simply has a core count advantage, and each of its cores is close enough in IPC to Alder Lake to make it a brute-force win on core count alone. The other reason is that unless you have a water-cooled workstation, most professional systems will throttle PL2 on Alder Lake and not achieve the performance of a brief benchmark on a larger-scale render job. Yes, if you have an enthusiast PC that's capable of maxing out PL2 and keeping your 12900K within thermal limits with un uninterrupted 250W+ then it's a much closer race. In the real world, workstations typically use air cooling and a 12900K isn't going to have unlimited power or low die temperatures under extended full load.

Meanwhile, a 5950X is basically fine with an air cooler and has a max real-world power draw of 142W unless you manually overclock it. The 5950X I build here have enough cooling to comfortably cool 175W so that's what I set PBO to and call it a day.
 
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Huh, fancy that - I guess it depends where you look. CPU-rendering is so dependent on the complexity of the scene and the duration of the render, and presumably whether the 12900K is ignoring boost limits (PL1=PL2) or running with a stock PL1. I've seen the 5900X tie the 12900K at best, and usually lose slightly, though I don't see VRAY in that list and it's a popular one for animation studios because it scales up to multi-box farms so nicely.

It's kind of irrelevant though as a 5900X is vastly cheaper than a well-cooled, DDR5 12900K and if you need to do this professionally you are almost certainly going to dump larger jobs out to either a cloud rendering platform like Amazon where you can borrow 5000 CPUs for an animation briefly, or push your render out to a farm of renderboxen (like we do, and our vis. department only qualifies as a relatively small studio).
 
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Thing is that can be a false economy depending on the exact circumstances. It may be better to nuke a task with the fastest performance rather than dragging it out over a longer time. Yes, doing the job faster can save significant power depending on the task and lengths of time.
For me that wont apply, as I game a lot. So its all about power useage over time. For me at, with a 3070/5900 I am seeing around 250-300w when gaming.
 

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For me that wont apply, as I game a lot. So its all about power useage over time. For me at, with a 3070/5900 I am seeing around 250-300w when gaming.
Looks like what's appropriate for you is flat out performance, same as me.
 
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I genuinely wonder what's the point of E cores for enthusiasts PC. Do they add anything at all for gaming? Wouldn't it be better to have just 10 to 12 P cores and no E cores?
Hi,I agree with you completely. The small core/big core cpus make sense in laptops or and device that relies on battery power to any degree. Using them in desktop or enthusiast computers is completely meaningless.
 
D

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Hi,I agree with you completely. The small core/big core cpus make sense in laptops or and device that relies on battery power to any degree. Using them in desktop or enthusiast computers is completely meaningless.

Not forgetting of course that ADL still has 8 power cores that beat the 16 of some AM3 CPU's in ST and MT. The E cores add at least 3000 points to CPUz MT score so that is nothing to sniff at either. People just like to whine about ADL E cores even if there is a proven advantage to them.
 
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Im at a loss here. I was actually debating getting Raptor Lake but im disappointed with the amount of P cores. Was hoping for at least 10-12. I dont need more cores for background tasks.


I was and am in same boat. Very upset and disappointed that Intel will not offer anything with ore than 8 P cores. I do not need a lot more. Just give 2-4 more and I would be thrilled. But 8 is too little. Yes games do not need more than 8 for now, but I like extra leeway and headroom and really do not want to use those e-cores at all.

It made me caught between a rock and hard place when I burnt money on 12th Gen thinking I would be happy with only 8 P cores and maybe the e-cores give them a chance, but nope they were crap and buggy. In reality I wanted more strong cores. And I wanted faster IPC and clocks. Zen 3 only 11% behind in IP, but it is so hard to clock it anymore than 4.5 to 4.7GHz all core. Where as Golden Cove even on air you can get to 4.9 or 5GHz all 8 P cores without trouble even with an average to below average bin but beyond that you need great AIO or custom loop or more.

Basically have to wait for Zen 4 as Intel does not have even HEDT anymore as an option with Golden Cove cores and even if they were supposed to by now it has kept getting delayed and delayed yet again if it ever shows up.

If you need that many P-cores, maybe look at Threadripper instead?

Problem with Threadripper is not only price, you have a minimum of 24 P cores contributing to that price. And also do not get IPC of Golden Cove or even Zen 3 yet as Zen 3 Threadripper is not even on DIY market yet.

Many people want 10-12 P cores and that is perfect. But 8 is the good minimum for a high end system these days and enthusiasts like to spec and overprovision a few over it and do not like more e-cores. Intel is losing lots of enthusiast customers to AMD than if they offered a 10-12 P core Golden Cove or Raptor Cove chip.
 
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I was and am in same boat. Very upset and disappointed that Intel will not offer anything with ore than 8 P cores. I do not need a ot more. Just give 2-4 more and I would be thrilled. But 8 is too little. Yes games do not need more than 8 for now, but I like extra leeway and headroom and really do not want to use those e-cores at all.

It made me caught between a rock and hard place when I burnt money on 12th Gen thinking I would be happy with only 8 P cores and maybe the e-cores give the a chance, but nope they were crap and buggy. In reality I wanted more strong cores. And I wanted faster IPC and clocks. Zen 3 only 11% behind in IP, but it is so hard to clock it anymore than 4.5 to 4.7GHz all core. Where as Golden Cove even on air you can get to 4.9 or 5GHz all 8 P cores without trouble but beyond that you need great AI or custom loop or more.

Basically have to wait for Zen 4 as Intel does not have even HEDT anymore as an option with Golden Cove cores and even if they were supposed to by now it has kept getting delayed and delayed yet again if it ever shows up.



Problem with Threadripper is not only price, you have a minimum of 24 P cores contributing to that price. And also do not get IPC of Golden Cove or even Zen 3 yet as Zen 3 Threadripper is not even on DIY market yet.

Many people want 10-12 P cores and that is perfect. But 8 is the good minimum for a high end system these days and enthusiasts like to spec and overprovision a few over it and do not like more e-cores. Intel is losing lots of enthusiast customers to AMD than if they offered a 10-12 P core Golden Cove or Raptor Cove chip.
Wolverine2349: Provides very good explanation and reasoning as to wanting more from Intel in the way of performance cores rather than efficiency cores.

People like HenrySomeone providing nothing constructive as to debunking what Wolverine said: :laugh:

Me: ‍/facepalm
 
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For anyone whining about the P-core E-core stuff, i'd like to remind you of a video Der8auer did where he points out that the E-cores aren't exactly a slouch, running a game only on the E-cores and getting surprising results! Easy to spot the odd AMD fanboy or people who don't really know what they're talking about, isn't it? :peace:

As for those whining about heat, my 12900K has been running surprisingly cool, even when tweaked and overclocked a little. Not that i need to, i run it stock and actually tune the voltage down a little bit without losing performance...which feels really weird, but that let me then tune the turbo bins to get higher average performance for the same heat output and power usage lol my 9900K ran way hotter sat at 5GHz...when under full load anyway, which isn't an event that happens often even when i was running a game, though some did chew that CPU close to 90%! Though i must admit I've had my 12900K since late December last year, hearing anything about 13th gen makes me go grrrrrrr!

Wolverine2349: Provides very good explanation and reasoning as to wanting more from Intel in the way of performance cores rather than efficiency cores.

People like HenrySomeone providing nothing constructive as to debunking what Wolverine said: :laugh:

Me: ‍/facepalm
Oh god, I'm glad i missed the crap he wrote before i posted my last reply or I'd have to flame! I was on Windows 11, maybe Windows 10 was slightly faster at the time due to the scheduler being not so optimized but...did i really notice? No. My GPU was no longer as gimped by my CPU! Only thing I've complained about is the price of DDR5 :laugh: though it *is* better in many ways...the speeeeeed (bandwidth)! Previously only achievable with HEDT and 4 memory channels, you can hit over 100GB/s on a mainstream!
 
D

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For anyone whining about the P-core E-core stuff, i'd like to remind you of a video Der8auer did where he points out that the E-cores aren't exactly a slouch, running a game only on the E-cores and getting surprising results! Easy to spot the odd AMD fanboy or people who don't really know what they're talking about, isn't it? :peace:

As for those whining about heat, my 12900K has been running surprisingly cool, even when tweaked and overclocked a little. Not that i need to, i run it stock and actually tune the voltage down a little bit without losing performance...which feels really weird, but that let me then tune the turbo bins to get higher average performance for the same heat output and power usage lol my 9900K ran way hotter sat at 5GHz...when under full load anyway, which isn't an event that happens often even when i was running a game, though some did chew that CPU close to 90%! Though i must admit I've had my 12900K since late December last year, hearing anything about 13th gen makes me go grrrrrrr!


Oh god, I'm glad i missed the crap he wrote before i posted my last reply or I'd have to flame! I was on Windows 11, maybe Windows 10 was slightly faster at the time due to the scheduler being not so optimized but...did i really notice? No. My GPU was no longer as gimped by my CPU! Only thing I've complained about is the price of DDR5 :laugh: though it *is* better in many ways...the speeeeeed (bandwidth)! Previously only achievable with HEDT and 4 memory channels, you can hit over 100GB/s on a mainstream!

Most people whining about them don't understand them at all. Plus don't forget, at some point AMD WILL be using them too
 

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For anyone whining about the P-core E-core stuff, i'd like to remind you of a video Der8auer did where he points out that the E-cores aren't exactly a slouch, running a game only on the E-cores and getting surprising results! Easy to spot the odd AMD fanboy or people who don't really know what they're talking about, isn't it? :peace:
Of course games do well on E cores, games aren't exactly CPU limited. But watch your background compilation or transcoding get relegated to an E core and let me know how happy you are about it. For the time being, E core are more trouble than they're worth it. I've recently enabled them to see how Linux handles them, but I didn't look into it properly.
As for those whining about heat, my 12900K has been running surprisingly cool, even when tweaked and overclocked a little. Not that i need to, i run it stock and actually tune the voltage down a little bit without losing performance...which feels really weird, but that let me then tune the turbo bins to get higher average performance for the same heat output and power usage lol my 9900K ran way hotter sat at 5GHz...when under full load anyway, which isn't an event that happens often even when i was running a game, though some did chew that CPU close to 90%! Though i must admit I've had my 12900K since late December last year, hearing anything about 13th gen makes me go grrrrrrr!
Says the guy running water cooling. The 12900k is clearly pushed too hard, throwing TDP out the window. Even my 12600k, I've constrained it to 75/125W and my humble Freezer 34 makes short work of it. Whisper quiet.
TL;DR The architecture is only slightly worse than Zen3, but out of the box, it is pushed too far.
 
D

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Of course games do well on E cores, games aren't exactly CPU limited. But watch your background compilation or transcoding get relegated to an E core and let me know how happy you are about it. For the time being, E core are more trouble than they're worth it. I've recently enabled them to see how Linux handles them, but I didn't look into it properly.

Says the guy running water cooling. The 12900k is clearly pushed too hard, throwing TDP out the window. Even my 12600k, I've constrained it to 75/125W and my humble Freezer 34 makes short work of it. Whisper quiet.
TL;DR The architecture is only slightly worse than Zen3, but out of the box, it is pushed too far.

I have a full custom loop cooling my 12700k, my PC is right next to me on the right. I cannot hear it, even gaming it is near silent. I just run mine stock, i suppose i could undervolt etc etc, but with the loop it does not run hot enough to bother doing it, and it is certainly quick enough.
 
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Of course games do well on E cores, games aren't exactly CPU limited. But watch your background compilation or transcoding get relegated to an E core and let me know how happy you are about it. For the time being, E core are more trouble than they're worth it. I've recently enabled them to see how Linux handles them, but I didn't look into it properly.

Says the guy running water cooling. The 12900k is clearly pushed too hard, throwing TDP out the window. Even my 12600k, I've constrained it to 75/125W and my humble Freezer 34 makes short work of it. Whisper quiet.
TL;DR The architecture is only slightly worse than Zen3, but out of the box, it is pushed too far.


Exactly well said. I agree for time being that e-cores are more trouble than they are worth. And FPS is way way down on e-cores for gaming but still within acceptable margin as most games are not CPU bound.

I do not have a problem per see with e-cores themselves on many SKUs as you can disable them. What I do have a massive problem with is the hard lock at 8 P cores. And Intel is just continuing to add more and more e-cores and staying at 8 P cores which is just wrong and not a good choice to do. Its not even a hybrid arch anymore like Alder Lake. At least Alder Lake had an equal amount of e and P cores or always more p cores. You could just shut off the e-cores and have a great 8 core chip, but no more than 8 strong cores. Now with future gens all Intel has made Big.Little more like Big.LittleXXXXX with the X being e-cores increasing each gen per the roadmaps.

And there is not even HEDT to turn to anymore. Well there was supposed to have been and even been here by now rebranded from HEDT to Mainstream Xeon Workstation or something like that (but who cares about the name), but it keeps getting delayed and delayed yet again and again if it ever sees the light of day.

Intel actually had better options 5-8 years ago back in the day than they do now despite their being no competition from AMD. On mainstream, you were stuck on 4 cores 8 thread chips. But they had a great HEDT platform where you could get 6 core chips (starting with Bloomfield through Ivy Bridge-E in 2010 to 2013) than 8 cores and even 10 cores starting with Haswell-E through Broadwell-E form late 2014 through 2016. Then they had Skylake-X 5 years ago as I type this though that was a step in wrong direction as latency got bad when they went to mesh form the ringbus and since have had no HEDT besides the meaningless Cascade Lake-X refresh in late 2019. Back then 4 core 8 thread chips were the same as 8 core 16 thread chips are today. And 16 cores today is like 8 cores back then. And yet Intel had excellent HEDT options with 8-10 cores that were a bit expensive, but still within reach to high end enthusiasts who have more money to spend than others, but do not want not beyond break the bank with Server high end workstation class parts that could get up to $10K or more just for a desktop.

Now despite their being competition from AMD, Intel is worse in innovation hard locking us to what was the 4 core 8 thread equivalent 5-8 years ago now with 8 cores and 16 threads, but with no HEDT option to be found to go for more on current archiecture. The e-cores are not wanted by everyone so they do not count. At the very least they need choice on mainstream platform Why not both a 10 P core Alder Lake chip in addition to their 8+8 chips as different use cases demand both especially since there is no HEDT option for more than 8 cores. Oh and before anyone like I have seen before in another thread ripping on me for wanting ore P-cores and my suggestion of that for Intel claiming it is bad to have your own products compete against each other like a 10+0 vs 8+8, well tell that to AMD. Company's own products compete against each other all the time and it serves different markets and benefits a company in the long run. I mean AMD technically has the 5800X3D competing against the 5900X and 5950X. One has only 8 cores but lots more L3 cache in 5800X3D. The other 2 have more cores but regular less L3 cache. Depends on use case. The e-cores are more trouble than they are worth for lots of people today and really in near future, and there are many who want more than 8, so a 10 P core chip would be beyond welcome.

Most people whining about them don't understand them at all. Plus don't forget, at some point AMD WILL be using them too


Yeah it would not be a problem if Intel had chips with more than 8 P cores. AMD is not hard locking us into chips with 8 at most P cores. They plan to use e-cores on lower end and mobile chips, but not flagship Ryzen Zen 5 parts.


Of course things can change and its pretty scary what someone else mentioned that companies could try just throwing more e-cores down our throat while decreasing P cores even more and market high core counts of weak cores and save money. I do not think we are anywhere near that point, but still scary thought.

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:
Wolverine2349: Provides very good explanation and reasoning as to wanting more from Intel in the way of performance cores rather than efficiency cores.

People like HenrySomeone providing nothing constructive as to debunking what Wolverine said: :laugh:

Me: ‍/facepalm
Oh god, I'm glad i missed the crap he wrote before i posted my last reply or I'd have to flame! I was on Windows 11, maybe Windows 10 was slightly faster at the time due to the scheduler being not so optimized but...did i really notice? No. My GPU was no longer as gimped by my CPU! Only thing I've complained about is the price of DDR5 :laugh: though it *is* better in many ways...the speeeeeed (bandwidth)! Previously only achievable with HEDT and 4 memory channels, you can hit over 100GB/s on a mainstream!

CrAsHnBuRnXp was actually agreeing with me. Read their posts earlier in this thread.

For anyone whining about the P-core E-core stuff, i'd like to remind you of a video Der8auer did where he points out that the E-cores aren't exactly a slouch, running a game only on the E-cores and getting surprising results! Easy to spot the odd AMD fanboy or people who don't really know what they're talking about, isn't it?


I am not a fanboy of either company. In fact I actually slightly prefer Intel when they have comparable IPC and clocks and big boy core counts. If AMD was maxing out at 8 P cores and just adding more e-cores to CPUs, I would be just as upset with them.

I am going all AMD cause Intel has no choice of more than 8 P cores. And while Intel Golden Cove and then Raptor Cove cores will have mild/modest better IPC than Zen 3/ Probably Zen 4 too, the IPC deficit is not enough to make me switch to Intel and be stuck at 8 P cores and hybrid arch if I want more. Its no where near the IPC gap of even the Conroe vs K8 days let alone the 50% or more IPC deficit AMD had with Bulldozer and pilediver compared to Intel counterparts of the day.
 
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Most people whining about them don't understand them at all. Plus don't forget, at some point AMD WILL be using them too
That's what they've always been, from the very start - followers (with an odd exception here and there, the only notable one being the first with 64 bit instruction set). With zen1 they finally gave up and went the hyperthreading way 15 years (!!!) after Intel and with Zen5 they will likewise copy the Big Little design. I really wonder how their rampant fanboys will excuse that, given how much they have to say about Alder Lake's "weak cores" right now... :rolleyes:
 

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That's what they've always been, from the very start - followers (with an odd exception here and there, the only notable one being the first with 64 bit instruction set). With zen1 they finally gave up and went the hyperthreading way 15 years (!!!) after Intel and with Zen5 they will likewise copy the Big Little design. I really wonder how their rampant fanboys will excuse that, given how much they have to say about Alder Lake's "weak cores" right now... :rolleyes:
Traditionally, AMD was 1/10th the size of Intel. AMD demolished Netburst, introduced AMD64 (and effectively killed off Itanium), built multi-cores that were not glued together, was the first to integrate the memory controller into the CPU... I don't know, that's not exactly the image of a mere follower.
 
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