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ThrottleStop P & E Core support?

unclewebb

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Do you have an Intel CPU that is not supported?

ThrottleStop 9.5 should support Intel's 12th Gen processors that have P & E cores. The 13th Gen processors are more or less the same so TS 9.5.1 should work correctly. No one has asked for an updated TS version so I have not released one yet.

I do not own or have access to any 12th or 13th Gen hardware so I have no way to confirm how well TS works on any recent Intel CPUs. Some feedback from the user community would be appreciated.
 

MyPC8MyBrain

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@unclewebb
much respects Maestro, thank you for chiming in :love:

i had a 12950HX i was trying to undervolt, i was having some issues lowering P-Cache,
similar behavior been observed with few other end users, we were able to lower Core voltage but as soon as we even just enable P-Cache for undervolting the system would crash,
the illusive part is a very long undervolt session where i was able to lower P-Cache to -155mV when it crashed,
trying to go back to 150mV or lower would fail for no apparent reason,

Core was undervolted to -165 mV at that point,
i was unable to get back to previous stable -150mV on P-Cache or any undervolt at all on P-Cahce afterwards,
it just kept crashing as soon as i enabled undervolt on P-Cache, this was later reported by few other users experiencing similar behavior,

i sent my unit back atm and awaiting replacement, the unit i was working with was Dell Precision 7670, a similar spec Dell 7770 is on its way,
i will ask for fellow members to chime in here to provide some feedback until i get my new machine,
 
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unclewebb

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An undervolt of -150 mV and beyond seems very aggressive. Does your computer crash when these are set to -50 mV each or to -100 mV each? Can you run a few threads of Prime95 or the TS Bench without any errors? Did you adjust both of these voltages together in steps of -25 mV or are you just trying to set one voltage first at -150 mV and then you start adjusting the other?

Another user had similar problems and lowering the Cache Ratio Max in the FIVR window seemed to help him out. Also keep the Ring Down Bin option checked.

Without any FIVR documentation from Intel and without a 12950HX to play with, there is nothing I can do to make ThrottleStop better. I think the biggest problem is that your offset voltages are being set too aggressively.
 

MyPC8MyBrain

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i agree these are way too aggressive, the unit was and still idling at 80-90c,
i went about lowering in -5mV intervals running bench after each increment,
TS Bench showed no errors followed by completed 3DMARK bench in order to move on to next increment,

i first started with core lowering in intervals until crash came about -174mV, went back to -165 on core and it was stable throughout,
then went about lower P-Cache same process as with Core -5mV intervals followed by stability test each time, it was finicky at first,
i would crash as soon as i enabled P Chace undervolt just checking the option without actually setting any value would crash the system,
even without undervolting core this would happen just by enabling the option, knowing i was able to lower P Cache to -150
i tried to start with both core and p cache at -100mV and work them together in -5mv increment,
sometime initial undervolt worked but would fail in bench sometimes it passed with no issues,

it became apparent that something doesn't agree with TS when enabling P Cache,
i just couldn't put my finger on it and the reason i am writing here,

i also noticed that some max variable stated in some sections would change after each boot,
for example speed shift in miscellaneous section in TPL would show 64 max and sometimes 68,
similar behavior was observed with min/max values in FIVR cache ratio section where time is would list max 46 and times it listed 48,

i did notice thermal throttling stopping around -120mV on P Cache with -165mV on core, with all P cores locked at 4.7Mhz,

Edit:
@unclewebb we are discussing issues with this new system (Dell 7670/7770) on this thread if you wanted to chime in there,
i have requested for members to chime here as well to help speed up cornering this issue,

seems like things are changing for gen 13 with DLVR, gen 11&12 still use partial FIVR,
does this help in any way?
 
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-batab-

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@unclewebb regarding Alder Lake behavior: no clue if there's a reason but the only IccMax setting working is the igpu IccMax. I can completely control edp throttling by simply modifying igpu IccMax (even when running on dgpu with a mux). Every other ICC setting seems to not be doing anything.

And by default it's at 200A so liquid metal users might want to set it at 255A to have more overclocking room.
 

MyPC8MyBrain

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@unclewebb
i am back with my new system in hand, running 12950HX ready for udervolting,
early on i reported an issue with P-Cache, the issue is back and i can replicate it and further assist with hands on testing,
what i see here is odd but with some positive new discoveries,

here's the scenario,
i set undervolt on CPU Core with no issues, apply and test all is great,
next i try to undervolt CPU P Cache, as soon as i just check the option to unlock adjustable voltage and save without any undervolt applied to P Cache the system will crash,
next observation was unintentional, i noticed that if i activate unlock adjustable voltage for P Cache, set the undervolt desired and then save,
yes the system will crash as expected but after it reboot and i open TS again, it applies the settings again ad this time i have undervolt on P Cache the same number i set just before i applied and it crashed, only its checkbox remains unchecked but undervolt values are applied, i can see the values in FIVR window and confirmed it through HWMonitor,

i can repeat this and crash the system by just checking the option to unlock adjustable voltage for CPU P Cache and hit save,
or by checking the option to unlock adjustable voltage for CPU P Cache and set desired values,
values will retain after reboot with unchecked "unlock adjustable voltage" option for P Cache,

my general settings
ts1.jpg
ts2.jpg

setting undervolt on CPU Cache with no issues,
ts3.jpg

setting undrvolt value for P Cache to retain after crash
ts4.jpg

rebooted after crash undervolt values retain for P Cache,
checkbox is unchecked for "unlock adjustable voltage" option for P Cache,
ts5.jpg

this is confirmed via HWMonitor as well
HWMonitor 01.jpg
 

unclewebb

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@MyPC8MyBrain

Before applying the cache offset voltage, have you tried significantly lowering the Cache Ratio Max value in the FIVR window? I think that has worked for some users. The cache ratio reported in the FIVR monitoring table after you reboot is 36 instead of 46.

Some motherboards do not reset the voltage control register after you crash and reboot or after you sleep and resume. They are supposed to but some don't. The voltage register might be set to the same values after booting up or resuming.

I wish I had a 12th Gen HX laptop and some documentation but I do not have either. Let me know if you get this figured out.
 

MyPC8MyBrain

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have you tried significantly lowering the Cache Ratio Max value in the FIVR window?
i have not tried messing with Cache Ratio > Max value at all,
default min/max is showing 8/46 for me, what do you think a max value should be there?
 

unclewebb

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Try cache ratio 36 and see if you can change the cache voltage without a BSOD. If yes, work your way up. Try to isolate what is causing the problem. Interesting that the CPU can run with less cache voltage when the cache is at 36X.
 

MyPC8MyBrain

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Thank you for the tips @unclewebb seem to resolve the instant crashing issue,
with so many variables now i am having a tough time getting a stable undervolt,
is there a particular order i should be applying settings, or a logical order of stressing each element?
 

unclewebb

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is there a particular order
Not that I know of. I think you only need to be aware of trying to run the cache too fast on recent CPUs.

I have never owned or used a 12th Gen HX or 12th Gen desktop CPU. You already have more first hand knowledge about these things than I do. How fast can you run your cache without any BSOD issues?
 

MyPC8MyBrain

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How fast can you run your cache without any BSOD issues?
haven't been able to definitively isolate that value with all other variables,
I am having ok results with 40 when i try to go lower to 36 it sometimes works sometimes it doesn't,
i am happy to set you up with access to my physical system so you can get some hands on time with the new HX line,
 

unclewebb

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i am happy to set you up with access to my physical system
Thanks for the offer. I appreciate when users are willing to help with development. Without any documentation from Intel, there is nothing that I can change in ThrottleStop to make it work any better for your 12th Gen HX processor.

I am not sure why these processors are so sensitive to cache ratio and cache voltage adjustments. If you can run the cache reliably at full speed then I would not bother checking the voltage box in ThrottleStop if that causes instability.

I think I remember one user telling me that the core offset voltage works without needing to touch the cache offset voltage. Not sure if that is true or not. If should be possible to test this by running something consistent like Cinebench. You can apply a core offset voltage while Cinebench is running and then go back to +0.0000 V and see if there is any difference in temperatures or performance.
 

MyPC8MyBrain

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Thanks for the offer.
YVW, i appreciate your time and efforts too :rockout:

I think I remember one user telling me that the core offset voltage works without needing to touch the cache offset voltage
i can confirm it does work just fine cranking down only on CPU Core,
but the effect is not as significant as also moving the needle down for cache as well,

in the Dell 7670/7770 case built-in thermal solution is instantly topped off as soon as a load is introduced,
for this CPU/GPU combo it is simply not robust enough to hold even the slightest of loads, there's zero wiggle room out of the box it was idling at 90c-100c,
 

gQx

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Thanks for the offer. I appreciate when users are willing to help with development. Without any documentation from Intel, there is nothing that I can change in ThrottleStop to make it work any better for your 12th Gen HX processor.

I am not sure why these processors are so sensitive to cache ratio and cache voltage adjustments. If you can run the cache reliably at full speed then I would not bother checking the voltage box in ThrottleStop if that causes instability.

I think I remember one user telling me that the core offset voltage works without needing to touch the cache offset voltage. Not sure if that is true or not. If should be possible to test this by running something consistent like Cinebench. You can apply a core offset voltage while Cinebench is running and then go back to +0.0000 V and see if there is any difference in temperatures or performance.
some well off guy/gal gotta send you a 12th gen laptop :) you, ddu guys and winraid guy with ssd hdd firmware fixing the problems industry wouldn't :)
 

MyPC8MyBrain

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@unclewebb
after many frustrating hours I think I finally found the right combination for this unit,
(atm everything in TS was left to its defaults beside these three option values below)
CPU Core -100.6mV
CPU P Cache -100.6mV
Cache Ratio 8<>42
the unit is still thermal throttling even with these settings :(
but at the least it holds through both CB23 and 3DMARK TimeSpy stress tests with no BSOD,
 
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MyPC8MyBrain

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lets hope this doesn't get merged to my previous post,

i think there's something AI'ish involved with remembering undervolt setting after reboot,
i have rebooted my system numerous times without ever opening TS and values still sticky (i am not complaining just making an observation),
if there was a way to confirm these values are written somewhere semi-permanent it would be nice, i actually like this behavior just not sure origin and complete logic behind,
 
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An undervolt of -150 mV and beyond seems very aggressive. Does your computer crash when these are set to -50 mV each or to -100 mV each? Can you run a few threads of Prime95 or the TS Bench without any errors? Did you adjust both of these voltages together in steps of -25 mV or are you just trying to set one voltage first at -150 mV and then you start adjusting the other?

Another user had similar problems and lowering the Cache Ratio Max in the FIVR window seemed to help him out. Also keep the Ring Down Bin option checked.

Without any FIVR documentation from Intel and without a 12950HX to play with, there is nothing I can do to make ThrottleStop better. I think the biggest problem is that your offset voltages are being set too aggressively.
Hello do I need to undervolt pcores and pcache at the same time, or can I start with pcore before pcache?

I am using a 13900HX with TS 9.6. I am able to run -500mV on my P Cores, is that normal? I'm trying to crash the machine so I know how low of an undervolt to start with. Everything else is at -0mV offset voltage.
 
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Hello @unclewebb do I need to undervolt pcores and pcache at the same time, or can I start with pcore before pcache?

I am using a 13900HX with TS 9.6. I am able to run -500mV on my P Cores, is that normal? I'm trying to crash the machine so I know how low of an undervolt to start with. Everything else is at -0mV offset voltage.

Configure both - before saving the settings - by clicking on Ok - Save voltages Immediately Tho, you could also select the option Ok - Do not save voltages and do a stress test - to make sure it's stable. Then again, if you didn't create a Scheduled task for Throttlestop to Start with Windows - you can try again in case of a BSOD. Worst case scenario - you'll have to delete the ThrottleStop.ini (it's were the settings or saved) - which resets TS.

CPU Cache is more sensible/picky. If there's any instability - this is what you should lower first. Thus, it's recommended to start with CPU Cache - while CPU Core can be set to an equal value or around 2x higher. After setting both - test for stability. Start with TS Bench (the included app) - but set it to at least 960M and first do a max threads test - then also try a 2x. Just to be sure (or at least lowering the chances of failure) - you could also try another stress app like Cinebench and/or Prime95.

PS. Don't start with -500 mV for CPU Cache (not aware of any CPU that can handle even half of that). If you do a search for your CPU you'll find others who undervolted it and for this specific CPU -100 mV is usually a safe bet for start - and you can keep lowering it by -5 mV till you find the lowest value at which your CPU is 100% stable. Here, not exactly the same model - but still close enough to give you an idea:

 
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Configure both - before saving the settings - by clicking on Ok - Save voltages Immediately Tho, you could also select the option Ok - Do not save voltages and do a stress test - to make sure it's stable. Then again, if you didn't create a Scheduled task for Throttlestop to Start with Windows - you can try again in case of a BSOD. Worst case scenario - you'll have to delete the ThrottleStop.ini (it's were the settings or saved) - which resets TS.

CPU Cache is more sensible/picky. If there's any instability - this is what you should lower first. Thus, it's recommended to start with CPU Cache - while CPU Core can be set to an equal value or around 2x higher. After setting both - test for stability. Start with TS Bench (the included app) - but set it to at least 960M and first do a max threads test - then also try a 2x. Just to be sure (or at least lowering the chances of failure) - you could also try another stress app like Cinebench and/or Prime95.

PS. Don't start with -500 mV for CPU Cache (not aware of any CPU that can handle even half of that). If you do a search for your CPU you'll find others who undervolted it and for this specific CPU -100 mV is usually a safe bet for start - and you can keep lowering it by -5 mV till you find the lowest value at which your CPU is 100% stable. Here, not exactly the same model - but still close enough to give you an idea:

Thank you so much!

I wanted to look on reddit for other people's results but reddit is down because of the API shenanigans and people making their communities private. I'll do this then report back.

Any tips for System Agent, iGPU Unislice, iGPU, and eCache? I don't use the iGPU, (it has a mux switch), and I disabled my e cores for compatibility with games. Which should I touch?
 

unclewebb

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I don't use the iGPU
If the Intel GPU is not being used then there is nothing to be gained by undervolting it.

Some users lose stability when trying to undervolt the eCache. Undervolting the System Agent is usually not very productive.

Concentrate on the P cores and P cache. I would recommend setting them equally when you first start doing some stability testing. Once you understand what voltage is more or less stable, then you can try adjusting these two offset voltages individually. In previous generations, some users found that setting the core offset to a bigger number compared to the cache offset was useful. Not sure if this still holds true for 12th and 13th Gen CPUs.

I am able to run -500mV on my P Cores
Without adjusting both the core and the cache, that setting alone probably did not do anything.

You can change whatever voltages you want but there is no point if the change does not reduce power consumption and reduce heat or improve performance. Always do lots of testing so you can prove that the change you made actually accomplished something. Cinebench was a good test when using different voltages.
 
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Do you have an Intel CPU that is not supported?

ThrottleStop 9.5 should support Intel's 12th Gen processors that have P & E cores. The 13th Gen processors are more or less the same so TS 9.5.1 should work correctly. No one has asked for an updated TS version so I have not released one yet.

I do not own or have access to any 12th or 13th Gen hardware so I have no way to confirm how well TS works on any recent Intel CPUs. Some feedback from the user community would be appreciated.
When I tinkered with speedshift min/max ratios it was treating all cores as p cores so e.g. min 30 ratio applied to both e and p cores at same time.

But since there is no profile support I stopped using it, but will test changes for you if you wish.
 
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If the Intel GPU is not being used then there is nothing to be gained by undervolting it.

Some users lose stability when trying to undervolt the eCache. Undervolting the System Agent is usually not very productive.

Concentrate on the P cores and P cache. I would recommend setting them equally when you first start doing some stability testing. Once you understand what voltage is more or less stable, then you can try adjusting these two offset voltages individually. In previous generations, some users found that setting the core offset to a bigger number compared to the cache offset was useful. Not sure if this still holds true for 12th and 13th Gen CPUs.


Without adjusting both the core and the cache, that setting alone probably did not do anything.

You can change whatever voltages you want but there is no point if the change does not reduce power consumption and reduce heat or improve performance. Always do lots of testing so you can prove that the change you made actually accomplished something. Cinebench was a good test when using different voltages.
Got this, thank you so much sensei. Will post back results.

Edit: Preliminary results:
-250mV Core
-85mV pCache
everything else +/- 0mV offset.
Stable enough to do CBR23 runs. cinebench R23 is now 19k, with ecores disabled.


Also tried
-115 mV pCore
-115 mV pCache
not stable.
Stable at both -110mV.
but if I increase pCore to -115mV, it crashes.
So I lowered pCache to -85mV, then kept pCore to -110mV and started going up from there until it crashes.
 
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unclewebb

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thank you so much
You are welcome.

Preliminary results:
-250mV Core
-85mV pCache
Most people find that at a certain point, increasing the core offset does not accomplish anything. When running Cinebench, what sort of improvements to temperatures or performance do you see when going from

-85 mV for core and cache to

-85 mV cache and -100 mV core or -150 mV core or -200 mV or finally -250 mV core?

I am just curious. Is there any improvement that you can clearly prove when Cinebench testing?

With some previous gen CPUs, there was no real improvement after a difference of about 50 mV. You could set the core offset request to the max, up to -1000 mV, and the CPU would simply ignore the majority of that request. The cache voltage was the main limiting factor.
 
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