Truth : Science Vs. Religion

[NdMk2o1o]

How many of you would be alive today if not for antibiotics,
cardiac pacemakers, and the rest of the panoply of modern medicine?

Science saves more lives then it has destroyed. However, I cannot attest the same for religion.

All the missions in third world nations bringing those anti-biotics to people disagree.

Nice reply MM, again I think science and religion can get on like buddies

And btw my 4 year old boy has had a pacemaker for 2 years so I appreciate science as much as anyone here for if it wasn't for science he wouldnt be. Did that stop me praying during his last open heart surgery he would be ok? ...........

 

[CDdude55]

Nice reply MM, again I think science and religion can get on like buddies

And btw my 4 year old boy has had a pacemaker for 2 years so I appreciate science as much as anyone here for if it wasn't for science he wouldnt be. Did that stop me praying during his last open heart surgery he would be ok? ...........

I honestly don't see how the two can coexist in terms of factual support. No doubt Science and Religion have coexisted for a long time, but they serve two different purposes in my mind, one is used for the discovery of our universe and the other based on emotional appeal.

It's great that you prayed for your son and in general prayer does show compassion and love, it's fine if it makes you feel better. But of course to me, prayer has no affect, one person helping can do more then 1000 hands together in prayer.

 

[NdMk2o1o]

I honestly don't see how the two can coexist in terms of factual support. No doubt Science and Religion have coexisted for a long time, but they serve two different purposes in my mind, one is used for the discovery of our universe and the other based on emotional appeal.

It's great that you prayed for your son and in general prayer does show compassion and love, it's fine if it makes you feel better. But of course to me, prayer has no affect, one person helping can do more then 1000 hands together in prayer.

Are you telling me that hope and human will (praying) do nothing? how many wars were won on the premise of hope when a man has nothing else left but hope, what can't be done by human will? dont confuse my concept of religion with what the modern concept of religion is and what the media portrays everyday, dare tell me my prayers and hopes had nothing to do with my son being here today....... you werent there when he pulled out his external pacemaker and breathing tubes (science) 12 hours after being opened up for heart surgery in intensive care whilst being heavily sedated by anaesthetics and stood out of his bed and would have died had it not been for my extreme calm and constant comforting of him, I could only do that by drawing strength from something external to myself.

Heck I am delusional, he would have been fine regardless, wouldn't he? Like I said dont mistake my description of religion with organised religion like we see everyday in the news and the papers, Ithough don't tell me there is no such thing cause as much as I can't disprove theories like "the big bang" which funnily enough seems to be plausible to people yet the notion of a higher being is just laughable..........

 

[Mr McC]

I honestly don't see how the two can coexist in terms of factual support. No doubt Science and Religion have coexisted for a long time, but they serve two different purposes in my mind, one is used for the discovery of our universe and the other based on emotional appeal.

A stick appears bent when partially placed in water, we often "hear" things when no sound occured and many people continue to feel an amputated limb: our senses can and often do deceive us. Following the tenets of Cartesian solipsism, the only thing that you can be sure of is your own existence. Moreover, given that we can only perceive and comprehend our world through our senses, I would be wary of placing too much importance on what we refer to as "facts". Perhaps with the exception of mathematical truths, science often points us towards the most probable interpretation rather than providing an irrefutable answer and many thinkers argue that where we attempt to observe something, the process of observation changes it, once again calling into question our "facts".

To a religious person, discoverying the universe and belief in a divinity or divinities are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, the foundations of Platonic philosophy rest firmly on the belief that true discovery necessarily entails a metaphysical element. Reason and emotion have not always been considered as being in conflict.

Are you telling me that hope and human will (praying) do nothing?.

Bear in mind that placebos are effective.

 

[CDdude55]

Are you telling me that hope and human will (praying) do nothing? how many wars were won on the premise of hope when a man has nothing else left but hope, what can't be done by human will? dont confuse my concept of religion with what the modern concept of religion is and what the media portrays everyday, dare tell me my prayers and hopes had nothing to do with my son being here today....... you werent there when he pulled out his external pacemaker and breathing tubes (science) 12 hours after being opened up for heart surgery in intensive care whilst being heavily sedated by anaesthetics and stood out of his bed and would have died had it not been for my extreme calm and constant comforting of him, I could only do that by drawing strength from something external to myself.

Heck I am delusional, he would have been fine regardless, wouldn't he? Like I said dont mistake my description of religion with organised religion like we see everyday in the news and the papers, Ithough don't tell me there is no such thing cause as much as I can't disprove theories like "the big bang" which funnily enough seems to be plausible to people yet the notion of a higher being is just laughable..........

That's more then reasonable, prayer helps some to psychologically deal with situations that they find challenging in life. I do reject that war notion though considering winning wars are meaningless to me(but that's a whole different topic). I did make the assumption that you prayed to your particular God for help and for that i'm sorry, i think striving over challenges in life, and striving over the ills of the world can not be done with hope or with faith, and while positive motivation can be derived from such things, it fundamentally does nothing in reality besides allow people to cope with their own issues.

Prayer and hope do motivate for good, but it takes more to help then what prayer and hope offers in the face of challenge.

A stick appears bent when partially placed in water, we often "hear" things when no sound occured and many people continue to feel an amputated limb: our senses can and often do deceive us. Following the tenets of Cartesian solipsism, the only thing that you can be sure of is your own existence. Moreover, given that we can only perceive and comprehend our world through our senses, I would be wary of placing too much importance on what we refer to as "facts". Perhaps with the exception of mathematical truths, science often points us towards the most probable interpretation rather than providing an irrefutable answer and many thinkers argue that where we attempt to observe something, the process of observation changes it, once again calling into question our "facts".

To a religious person, discoverying the universe and belief in a divinity or divinities are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, the foundations of Platonic philosophy rest firmly on the belief that true discovery necessarily entails a metaphysical element. Reason and emotion have not always been considered as being in conflict.


Bear in mind that placebos are effective.

That's true, really the ultimate goal of the process of science is what leads us to the most probable conclusion with the available resources at the time, there is something a bit more absolute about truths which is what science generally aims for. I mispoke saying that science has facts as opposed to the actual reality of achieving a general better understanding of the universe which is what is works towards incrementally as opposed to finding whole truths immediately.

 

[LAN_deRf_HA]

Are you telling me that hope and human will (praying) do nothing?

What those things do for yourself is one thing, but technically speaking praying and being hopeful doesn't actual affect anything externally. Well except perhaps another person if they have a positive emotional response to knowing that you're praying/feeling hopeful. Positive emotions in the patient may have a positive effect on recovery, though I can't recall if I've ever seen a proper study on that effect.

 

[WhiteLotus]

All the missions in third world nations bringing those anti-biotics to people disagree.

And then I wonder about the Vatican condemning condoms, and the Islam preachers in north Nigeria (and other parts of Africa) saying that the Polio vaccine is actually sterility drugs used by the west to kill the "true believers".

 

[shlesscamp]

Does religion explain our existence any better than science, or does it just delay the jump from nothingness to existence by introducing an intermediate step—that intermediate step being in many cases a supernatural being?

i feel dumb now but honestly i never even though of that. good point +1

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

What those things do for yourself is one thing, but technically speaking praying and being hopeful doesn't actual affect anything externally

human interaction with the world by just seeing it has a scientifically proven impact on the world(3 slots experiment) that to me dictates we do not understand the universe, to me peoples theories are built up on shit thats continually on the edge of oblivon relevatively
my simple understandings are that many choose religion to explore the world many dont but the 2 get on fine in my head.

to me an RC cathlic ish id say science is on the edge of describing exactly what jesus said that we are all 1 entangled inseperable (10 dimension says hes right) thing not at least on one level independant and whos to say our univers isnt a germ in the body of something we might call god

also ive seen experiments throwing love at ice cristals that were interesting

 

[Thefumigator]

I'm christian catholic myself, mmmm more christian than catholic but in South Americamost churches are catholic, but anyway I don't care much, its not the important thing.

Actually I had several bad moments in my life. The third world is not everyone's piece of cake. So yes I had to rely on a church. I had to, if it wasn't by them and their help, I wouldn't have made it.

Look, the kindom of god is within you. That said Leo Tolstoi in his book of the same name. Mahatma Ghandi was very captivated by this book and other Tolstoi works I assume. He managed to get a huge bunch of people to kick the english empire out of India with just 2 ideals: no violence and no resistance.

That's a miracle to me. But the real miracle would be the day all humanity takes its example to solve things and start forgiving to stop rage.

God, or Jesus or Allah or whatever, He always wanted to explain this from the begining. But many didn't heard, and many didn't got it right and started to use violence in the name of God.

Think at the "holy inquisition" for one moment. Half of the victims were christian catholic, that were against their own church, and in the process they were killed in the most awful ways. Joan of Arc was the begining of the end of the "holy inquisition". And hopefully, for the best of us all, the holy inquisition ended. How would Catholic Church survive after such atrocity? because it wasn't the Church to blame, but those who were in command at the time.

But is religion to blame? or just men are to blame?
Is it that god abandoned the planet long ago that made this planet break onto suffering? or is it men that aren't doing their homework?

Is it science one of our homeworks to make a better life for us all? YES!
Can we use all of our time to make science go in favour of humanity? YES!
Can we use all of our time to make religion go in favour of humanity? AGAIN YES!
And we should.
I hope, whatever religion you are into, or maybe you aren't into any, that anyone uses his life for the best of all of us. Whatever it is, just do it, maybe its taking care of your father, maybe is studying science, maybe its folding at home (for tpu of course ;-)) you know.

Whatever are your beliefs, and whatever this thread ends.

 

[Steevo]

how many wars were

The fault of religion?

 

[erocker]

The fault of religion?

I'm pretty sure that land and resources takes the cake on that one.

 

[mastrdrver]

In both instances (both science and religion) the one who claims to understand it does not understand that they know nothing.

Religion and science are not dangerous. It is this race we call humanity. It is a dangerous thing for one to find books, information, etc that challenges what we think we know. The reason being that we may find out that we have wasted a portion of our life in error.

The reason for all this is pride. No one wants to be told they do not know what they are talking about when they have spent a life studying it and teaching it.

The best analogy (not very good so forgive me) I can give is politics in the US. Outside of the very few that listen to the people who elect them, debating on capital hill is an exercise in futility. Everyone has already made up their minds (party lines). The debating is for appearance sake. The people who "change sides" only do it because they got something they wanted, not because of some persuasive argument.

In a similar manner, arguments between religion and science end the same. "Everyone" has made up their mind and the idea of being wrong is just too hard of a shock (either way) to the mind. Thus, we stand in our pride and pronounce the other side wrong without give weight and thought to the argument of whether it is right or wrong.

Even while it may sound like I understand this, I don't. There are so many twists and turns on this it is mind boggling.

The real question is, is there someone who understands it all?

If so, then "it/they" have to be God since anyone who would understand it and know it all would be by the very definition.

 

[The_Ish]

I must highly recommend http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1418108/

Whether you believe or not.. I watch a new documentary every day without exaggerating. That is to say, I've seen my share. Take my word for it, this is an excellent documentary series.

edit/removed spoilers

 

[MilkyWay]

Everything is either made up by humans or ran by humans.

Science i can understand because its the quest to find an answer for things. Religion is looking at a book and having faith when looking for answers. To me blind faith is less reliable than having real world experience to back something up. Either way humans cloud everything so all these things can just be one persons experience that is why we debate science and why there are so many different denominations of religion.

I take a lot of things on faith like are the ingredients in a drink as they claim? Are there actually people at the other end reading this on TPU? Yes i can go and discover this if i wanted but with religion i cant i have to take it on blind faith that something actually exists like what was in a scripture.

Technology and science are slightly different, technology is something i can touch or use where as science is just theories that are constantly being challenged and debated. Technology by definition is just knowledge that is put to practical use.

EDIT: I grew up a Catholic but ive almost stopped following it. Practically i felt i had no use for following a religion. Also i just don't believe in any of the old testament as being fact but most of the bible is just a story designed to tell us how to live our lives. Its just a series of peoples experiences and i can go and find any number of books and get the same effect.

 

[MilkyWay]

And then I wonder about the Vatican condemning condoms, and the Islam preachers in north Nigeria (and other parts of Africa) saying that the Polio vaccine is actually sterility drugs used by the west to kill the "true believers".

The current pope actually said the use of condoms to prevent infection was okay in exceptional circumstances.
To use condoms to prevent pregnancy goes against teachings of Catholicism.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11804398

 

[AphexDreamer]

With time and as science expands religion will become obsolete.

We will simply require less and less of it as our knowledge expands.

For the survival of the human race will not come down to how many times we went to church or practiced our faith, but how far we've advanced in science and technology and with that our understanding of the universe and its contents.

"If you want to save
your child from polio, you can pray or you can inoculate. If you're interested
in the sex of your unborn child, you can consult plumb-bob
danglers all you want (left-right, a boy; forward-back, a girl —or maybe
it's the other way around), but they'll be right, on average, only one
time in two. If you want real accuracy (here, 99 percent accuracy), try
amniocentesis and sonograms. Try science.
Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with
prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however
vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet
has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability
of science? There isn't a religion on the planet that doesn't long
for a comparable ability—precise, and repeatedly demonstrated before
committed skeptics —to foretell future events. No other human institution
comes close."

Carl Sagan

 

[TIGR]

I must highly recommend http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1418108/

Whether you believe or not.. I watch a new documentary every day without exaggerating. That is to say, I've seen my share. Take my word for it, this is an excellent documentary series.

edit/removed spoilers

Be careful trusting anything that comes from Erich von Däniken. A bit of searching online will explain why. Ancient Aliens contains more than its share of exaggerations and sensationalism. Doesn't qualify as objective or scientific in my book. But do I recommend watching it? Absolutely. I've just recently watched the entire series and it's fascinating. Just take it with a grain of salt and do your own research on the side.

 

[The_Ish]

I just find it it interesting.

 

[Thatguy]

Religion is not the epitome of ignorance. Mans arrogance is. Be it his faith in an interpretation of mans science. Or his faith in mans interpretation of a book. Its all self severing stupidity and the message is always lost.

Some say man uses religion to explain the unknown. Some say man uses science to explain away his misunderstanding of G-d. Bottom line? Nobody knows and anyone who holds judgment over one or the other is worse then who he holds judgment over.

Both science and religion are about having an open mind. Yet both extremes seem to be the most closed.

Religion is inarguably the epitome of ignoracne, there not debating that point. When someone claims to have divine knowledge of the unproveable. Thats ignorance if you belive it.

 

[Damn_Smooth]

Religion is inarguably the epitome of ignoracne, there not debating that point. When someone claims to have divine knowledge of the unproveable. Thats ignorance if you belive it.

Ignoracne? Is there a cure for that?

 

[xenocide]

As I see it, Religion exists to fill the Human desire to feel as if they are part of something bigger, and give purpose. Religion was originally a tool to help give people a reason to do certain things, but since then it has been twisted into something completely different. I think Religion in theory, and Religion in practice, are also two completely different things. Religion in theory can easily co-exist with the Scientific community, but Religion in practice continually rejects it.

 

[streetfighter 2]

With time and as science expands religion will become obsolete.

We will simply require less and less of it as our knowledge expands.

For the survival of the human race will not come down to how many times we went to church or practiced our faith, but how far we've advanced in science and technology and with that our understanding of the universe and its contents.

The thing I dislike about Richard Dawkins is that he is a broken record, always repeating his "god doesn't exist; religion is bad; down with religion" mantra. Never did he ask, "why religion?" Fortunately for people like me, science is not so easily deterred and such questions have been and continue to be examined . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology_of_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science_of_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology_of_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_morality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion

Will progress in science eventually dispel religion from human society? That question can only be answered if we understand why religion exists in the first place.

If religion is an evolved trait, will we eventually lose it? No idea.

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind. -- Einstein
My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. -- Einstein

Kudos for quoting Carl Sagan though.

 

[Lionheart]

Consciousness FTW

 

[Drone]

It's just another dead end.

Science and religion got nothing to do with each other. For some people their religion is their science and for other people their science is their religion. Religion doesn't need any explanation at all. It has "take it or leave it approach". While science is a totally different thing.

Actually what's the real goal of science? Right it's knowledge, absolute truth, M-theory, universal formula ... you name it. Does this all have to do anything with god? Not necessarily. Atm nothing really can prove or disprove god's existence while zealots or atheists still foaming at the mouth the real truth won't change. And maybe there isn't even any truth at all. Maybe everything is random and chaotic and has no meaning at all just like in quantum world. Maybe it all like Mr. Feynman says, is about sums of possibilities and nothing more. As for myself ... I'd rather be spending my life on thinking and seeking for answers which I want to know, being happy or sad, feeling lost or found than fearing shaking and waiting for the heaven or eternal salvation. Ok.. end of rant.

btw, nice said Lionheart. Self-awareness is the great gift.