Upgraded to 5800X3D and RX 7900 XTX, nothing but problems, mediocre performance

[AleXXX666]

Had a Ryzen 5 3600 and RTX 2080 in the Gigabyte X570 I Aorus Pro WiFi mITX board for years, got a 7900 XTX and wasn't happy with performance so I got a 5800X3D. RAM (Gskill Ripjaws DDR4-3600 CL19) had been occasionally flakey for a while so that was replaced with Corsair Vengeance DDR4-3600 CL16. At this point the only thing in the system more than a year old is the motherboard, and it seems to work fine. The chipset fan has been replaced with a Noctua.

BIOS fully updated
Windows 11 Pro fresh install, fully updated, including C/.net/direct X/etc
reBAR/above 4GB addressing enabled in BIOS
AMD X570 drivers installed
AMD Adrenalin 23.9.1 installed (23.9.2 works but control panel will not open)
AMD Ryzen Master installed, just for monitoring

Temps could be better but aren't worrying; the A4-H2O is a small case with somewhat limited airflow. Nothing is hitting above mid 70s C under load.

System is stable but doesn't perform like I just spent $1500 on it, and I'm starting to regret not saving up another $1000 for a RTX 4090 and 7800X3D. A number of people told me I'd be crazy to not just grab the 5800X3D, and looking at benchmarks that seemed to be the simple, easy, cheaper way forward... But it's been a stressful mess, and I'm not seeing the same numbers others are getting with very similar setups.

Microsoft Flight Sim is a good example of this - there are many benchmarks showing the 5800X3D and 7900XTX getting right around 60 FPS average at 4K, ultra settings, DX11 renderer. I do sometimes see that high, even higher, on internal plane view or at very high altitude, but getting reasonably close to any city will drop it in to the 40s. That's just... Pathetic. I expect far more from this kind of high end hardware, and I don't think that's unreasonable? So either the benches are all done poorly (unlikely) or there's something wrong with my setup.

I also regularly bench 5-10% below average for "same hardware" in 3DMark. While I don't put a lot of stock in these numbers I think it's telling that I've always seen equal or just above the average with the 3600 and 2080, everything running stock and otherwise equal.

Oh - I went in to this knowing AMD hadn't caught up with raytracing, but god it's bad. I expected to be able to do more than with the 2080 and yeah, not really. Between that and software issues - sound cuts out randomly over HDMI, the latest driver package breaks the Adrenalin control panel on a fresh Windows install - I'm really regretting giving AMD another chance after like 15 years of Nvidia cards.

Apart from reinstalling Windows AGAIN (which feels like it's inevitable at this point) any suggestions? I'm at the end of my rope.

catched with 3D hype? prob could just play with 3600 and new gpu in 4k, lol....

 

[faye]

Yeah, we're not doing great over here...

 

[phanbuey]

can you smell the 3D cache melting when you run that?

/joke

Is it throttling?

 

[faye]

catched with 3D hype? prob could just play with 3600 and new gpu in 4k, lol....

No, the R5 3600 was really limiting performance.

can you smell the 3D cache melting when you run that?

/joke

Is it throttling?

temps during cinebench 9.25.2023

docs.google.com

 

[ir_cow]

I suggest fresh installation of windows. Also wasn't benchmarks showing flightsim really likes a lot of system memory?

 

[faye]

yup, sorry typo. I meant to mention the latest BIOS version (F37e).

And you pretty much checked all the other obvious culprits. Still it wouldn't hurt to actually use core optimizer in Ryzen Master instead of just using it for monitoring. Some undervolt might help, but that will not have any effect on your 7900 XTX

As mentioned by others, post some bench results, maybe those can clarify some of the possible issues.

Is there something I need to set in BIOS to let Ryzen Master make changes? Cause all the various controls seem to be grayed out at the moment. I've never really messed with it before, but it seems like some very aggressive undervolting is in my near future.

 

[phanbuey]

No, the R5 3600 was really limiting performance.

temps during cinebench 9.25.2023

docs.google.com

What's the background CPU usage at? Can you set high priority and rerun?

13% gap from stock 5800x3d where avg clocks are -3%? theres gotta be like a search indexer or something going on during that benchmark.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I suggest fresh installation of windows. Also wasn't benchmarks showing flightsim really likes a lot of system memory?

I think they fresh installed windows once or twice.

32GB is fine for flight simulator afaik. I've played it with my 4090 with a 5950X at 4k with 32GB and performance was fine even with my midrange ish cpu gaming performance.

 

[mechtech]

Hmmm wow

Personally I would try

-re-flashing latest bios
-setting bios to default settings
-running ram at 3200 and fabric at 1600
-latest chipset driver....................control panel power options..............could try setting to performance mode

-if still issues after that secure erase and fresh install of windows..........wait a few more days, MS should have updated iso out then

good luck

EDIT - try disabling ReBar as well

 

[faye]

What's the background CPU usage at? Can you set high priority and rerun?

13% gap from stock 5800x3d where avg clocks are -3%? theres gotta be like a search indexer or something going on during that benchmark.

That made a /far/ bigger difference than I was expecting!

Literally just went in to task manager and set high priority.

 

[phanbuey]

View attachment 315205

That made a /far/ bigger difference than I was expecting!

Literally just went in to task manager and set high priority.

Yeah your reads and writes in that log you posted are nuts for a benchmark - tons of disk activity. New windows install is thrashing your SSD - you can set priority separation in registry:

This can help Calypto's Latency Guide | PDF | System Software | X86 Architecture (scribd.com)

22 or 38 are usually the ones I use.


EDIT:

The other thing to keep in mind when comparing benchmarks to reviewer's systems is they run those installs BARE - to the point of disabling VBS and core isolation (it's in the AMD review guide). So you're comparing a stock bloated install to one with all the nanny services turned off and nothing running you will get lower FPS and worse frametimes than they do.

 

[QuietBob]

View attachment 315205

That made a /far/ bigger difference than I was expecting!

Literally just went in to task manager and set high priority.

Your CPU is performing just as expected in CB24 in the present thermal conditions. Your average effective clock across all cores was 4,333 MHz and average temp 81 C for the duration of the benchmark. Two cores were momentarily boosting slightly over 4,500 MHz.

The best you can hope for with a 5800X3D is 4,450 MHz with a heavy all-core load, and a 4,550 MHz boost on one-two cores with a light to medium load, including games.

As I mentioned, if you want to extract every little bit of performance from the 5800X3D, you will need to keep it below 75 C at all times. You may have a chance with a -30 setting on the curve optimizer, which could be done in the BIOS, or using a third party tool. In addition -- as @tabascosauz pointed out -- using AGESA 1.2.0.6 should result in lower temps and higher boost clocks. Your motherboard supports it in the F36a BIOS update.

 

[faye]

Your CPU is performing just as expected in CB24 in the present thermal conditions. Your average effective clock across all cores was 4,333 MHz and average temp 81 C for the duration of the benchmark. Two cores were momentarily boosting slightly over 4,500 MHz.

The best you can hope for with a 5800X3D is 4,450 MHz with a heavy all-core load, and a 4,550 MHz boost on one-two cores with a light to medium load, including games.

As I mentioned, if you want to extract every little bit of performance from the 5800X3D, you will need to keep it below 75 C at all times. You may have a chance with a -30 setting on the curve optimizer, which could be done in the BIOS, or using a third party tool. In addition -- as @tabascosauz pointed out -- using AGESA 1.2.0.6 should result in lower temps and higher boost clocks. Your motherboard supports it in the F36a BIOS update.

I'll flash F36a, set it to -30 and hope for the best, but based on what I've read it may not be stable that low. Only one way to find out. I wish I remembered what BIOS I was running before current, cause it had all kinds of issues, but I think/hope it was one of the even older ones without 5800X3D support.

 

[Deleted member 223428]

I'll flash F36a, set it to -30 and hope for the best, but based on what I've read it may not be stable that low. Only one way to find out. I wish I remembered what BIOS I was running before current, cause it had all kinds of issues, but I think/hope it was one of the even older ones without 5800X3D support.

-30 all core is pretty common without issue (mine did it), but -25 may provide slightly better performance and should be essentially 100% stable. Always exceptions of course.

 

[tabascosauz]

I'll flash F36a, set it to -30 and hope for the best, but based on what I've read it may not be stable that low. Only one way to find out. I wish I remembered what BIOS I was running before current, cause it had all kinds of issues, but I think/hope it was one of the even older ones without 5800X3D support.

-30 is not a must, it's just the max for this platform. I run -28 stable, -30 still runs but isn't 100% stable based on score variation and clock behaviour. Every CPU is unique.

The only problems with 1206 are that you don't get native CO support in BIOS (added back in 1208), and you can't run with fTPM on or you get occasional massive lag for a few seconds (fixed in 1207). The former is easily fixed with a modded BIOS or PBO2 Tuner; the latter is fixed by turning it off.

If you want temp reductions without having to cap power below 100W, then CO is the only way. But even as it is now, temps and clocks aren't absolutely terrible. Seems like not having a clean windows/lots of background garbage is handicapping you on every front. Get rid of that shit.

Generally on the 1207/1208/120A BIOSes you may need a lot of work to even get close to what 1206 could do. ie. hefty negative Vcore offset + max negative CO + maybe tweaked power limits

 

[Space Lynx]

Microsoft Flight Sim is a good example of this - there are many benchmarks showing the 5800X3D and 7900XTX getting right around 60 FPS average at 4K, ultra settings, DX11 renderer. I do sometimes see that high, even higher, on internal plane view or at very high altitude, but getting reasonably close to any city will drop it in to the 40s. That's just... Pathetic. I expect far more from this kind of high end hardware, and I don't think that's unreasonable? So either the benches are all done poorly (unlikely) or there's something wrong with my setup.

You are running a demanding game at 4k, these are normal numbers. This is why I game at 1440p with my 7900 XT at higher frames. Even a 4090 struggles in some games at 4k. I don't think there was anything wrong with your system if you were getting the right fps in-game...

Also, I don't recommend -30... if you want to make sure its stable run OCCT it will tell you fairly quickly if it is or not, if not then do -25 and you will be good.

 

[faye]

-30 is not a must, it's just the max for this platform. I run -28 stable, -30 still runs but isn't 100% stable based on score variation and clock behaviour. Every CPU is unique.

The only problems with 1206 are that you don't get native CO support in BIOS (added back in 1208), and you can't run with fTPM on or you get occasional massive lag for a few seconds (fixed in 1207). The former is easily fixed with a modded BIOS or PBO2 Tuner; the latter is fixed by turning it off.

If you want temp reductions without having to cap power below 100W, then CO is the only way. But even as it is now, temps and clocks aren't absolutely terrible. Seems like not having a clean windows/lots of background garbage is handicapping you on every front. Get rid of that shit.

Generally on the 1207/1208/120A BIOSes you may need a lot of work to even get close to what 1206 could do. ie. hefty negative Vcore offset + max negative CO + maybe tweaked power limits

The thing is there's nothing to get rid of, apart from like, unnecessary services I guess? It's not like I installed a bunch of unnecessary garbage. Really hoping things calm down once Windows is done indexing or whatever.

 

[tabascosauz]

The thing is there's nothing to get rid of, apart from like, unnecessary services I guess? It's not like I installed a bunch of unnecessary garbage. Really hoping things calm down once Windows is done indexing or whatever.

Just do a run or two with windows search service disabled. Then turn it on after you're done. It's just going to keep running for some time (seems to like to start immediately after a benchmark run).

What sort of stuff is running in the tray on a daily basis?

Also, I'm pretty sure you need to keep your expectations in check for MSFS. MSFS and DCS both experience significant frame drops from denser urban environments. Reviewers will obviously be picking a lighter area to test for consistency's sake.

In DCS the multithreading client helps with playability on the low end but does not change fundamental behaviour. I wouldn't expect MSFS to be any different.

 

[ViperXTR]

-30 all core is pretty common without issue (mine did it), but -25 may provide slightly better performance and should be essentially 100% stable. Always exceptions of course.

it does not give whea errors during idle now with recent bios updates? i remember back then that it passes some stress tests but just blue screen on idle.

 

[amd64skater]

The thing is there's nothing to get rid of, apart from like, unnecessary services I guess? It's not like I installed a bunch of unnecessary garbage. Really hoping things calm down once Windows is done indexing or whatever.

Hope you get this sorted out. Been reading and wow your system is a AMD beast. Yeah someone said it earlier I would play at 1440p. You will notice a huge difference in performance. Built mine for 1440p but I am running at 1080p which is a downgrade I know but I am so happy with the performance. Also you may want to get a bigger power supply. At least 1000w. And yes windows 11 sucks.

 

[wiak]

reset & disable secure boot and fTPM in bios, see if that helps
if not does your power supply handle the load? ive had issue with power supplies in the past just making games slow/unstable/crash

 

[Makaveli]

Your time spy numbers look ok.

Your original Cinebench before you changed priority was low looks better now this is my run at normal priority.

-30 on all cores PBO

 

[faye]

reset & disable secure boot and fTPM in bios, see if that helps
if not does your power supply handle the load? ive had issue with power supplies in the past just making games slow/unstable/crash

No crashes, since the BIOS update the system has been completely stable. This leaves me hesitant to go to another version, but if undervolting isn't enough that will be the next step.

I'll hit it will Cinebench and Superposition or something today and see how it takes everything maxed, but I think it will be fine. Heat (and not boosting to max because of it) is the main concern at this point.

Slowly working my way up to -30 all core. At -15 now without issue.

Your time spy numbers look ok.

View attachment 315253


Your original Cinebench before you changed priority was low looks better now this is my run at normal priority.

-30 on all cores PBO

View attachment 315254

Did you tweak or change anything else apart from the -30 all core? I've skimmed a couple different how to guides and am planning to go more in depth if needed. One is pretty much just like "set this to -30 and check stability, if it's stable you're golden, very no real reason to mess with it further." The other guide goes in to detail about several other settings.

-----

General questions, for everyone:

What if anything significant in terms of gaming related features and performance will I lose by going back to Windows 10, if and when I may choose to do so? I know it's silly on some level, an OS should just get out of the way and let you use your machine, I agree with that, and 99% of what has been (and continues to be) added to 11 doesn't matter to me in the least, but I don't like the idea of not getting the latest and greatest.

Apart from the first few days after this upgrade I've run Windows 11 canary pretty much since release. Ironically, that was because I didn't want to complicate troubleshooting, when it may have fixed some things.

Microsoft seems to have relented to power users who refuse to move from 10 to 11, at least to some degree. DirectStorage was supposed to be 11 only at first if I'm remembering right... Is there anything else like that? Anything substantially different on the graphics subsystem side of things, for example? Similar potential gotchas?

I hate having to reinstall again, but I may throw it on a spare 1tb NVMe and mess around. I haven't used 10 in a long time now.

 

[Makaveli]

No crashes, since the BIOS update the system has been completely stable. This leaves me hesitant to go to another version, but if undervolting isn't enough that will be the next step.

I'll hit it will Cinebench and Superposition or something today and see how it takes everything maxed, but I think it will be fine. Heat (and not boosting to max because of it) is the main concern at this point.

Slowly working my way up to -30 all core. At -15 now without issue.


Did you tweak or change anything else apart from the -30 all core? I've skimmed a couple different how to guides and am planning to go more in depth if needed. One is pretty much just like "set this to -30 and check stability, if it's stable you're golden, very no real reason to mess with it further." The other guide goes in to detail about several other settings.

-----

General questions, for everyone:

What if anything significant in terms of gaming related features and performance will I lose by going back to Windows 10, if and when I may choose to do so? I know it's silly on some level, an OS should just get out of the way and let you use your machine, I agree with that, and 99% of what has been (and continues to be) added to 11 doesn't matter to me in the least, but I don't like the idea of not getting the latest and greatest.

Apart from the first few days after this upgrade I've run Windows 11 canary pretty much since release. Ironically, that was because I didn't want to complicate troubleshooting, when it may have fixed some things.

Microsoft seems to have relented to power users who refuse to move from 10 to 11, at least to some degree. DirectStorage was supposed to be 11 only at first if I'm remembering right... Is there anything else like that? Anything substantially different on the graphics subsystem side of things, for example? Similar potential gotchas?

I hate having to reinstall again, but I may throw it on a spare 1tb NVMe and mess around. I haven't used 10 in a long time now.

Not really when I had a 5800X it required more per core tuning for PBO and I run a Samsung B-die memory kit so my sub-timings are done also.

On the 5800X3D all core -30 pbo is it and kept the same timing for the bdie no other tweaking was done.

As you are doing your PBO tuning keep an eye out for Idle crashes or reboots it's usually stable at full or normal load.

 

[faye]

Hope you get this sorted out. Been reading and wow your system is a AMD beast. Yeah someone said it earlier I would play at 1440p. You will notice a huge difference in performance. Built mine for 1440p but I am running at 1080p which is a downgrade I know but I am so happy with the performance. Also you may want to get a bigger power supply. At least 1000w. And yes windows 11 sucks.

I get it, in the end I guess my expectations are just a bit too high, but the thing is that the RTX 2080 was already handling most of what I play at 1440p at similar settings.

I'll probably end up trading the 7900 XTX + cash for a 4090 in a month or two, once I get a couple more paychecks in and some other hobby stuff sells to offset. The 7900 XTX is a major disappointment - yes, faster than the 2080, but often not enough to matter... Or enough to be impressive, at least in modern titles. As of right now I would not recommend it to anyone but the most hardcore AMD loyalist, or those for whom ~$900 is the absolute top of their budget, with the understanding that they won't be able to to turn on anything beyond the most basic raytracing stuff.

Is it cool to see the Shadow of the Tomb Raider bench run at 4K with everything maxed around 90FPS? Sure, but it's also a 5 year old game that doesn't make extensive use of raytracing... And a 4080 runs it faster. I can't even max out Control without FSR on, and with it on I'm still not happy with the FPS.

When performance barely meets my "good enough" standard in years old titles with the card fresh out of the box my usual pattern of keeping the same card for 3+ years more or less happily seems highly unrealistic. This is also, ignoring inflation at least, far and away the most I have ever spent on a graphics card... And it feels like less of an improvement than the last several such upgrades, to me. If I spend $1000 on a single component (in the end after discounts and such I thankfully got it for a little less, but still, that's regular street price) there should be some wow factor there, and it's missing entirely.

It's so lackluster that I convinced myself something must be horribly broken with my computer, and it's just not. I'm losing maybe 10-15% of potential performance, between not having the latest and greatest high end CPU and some minor thermal issues. That's it. Even if I were to put all my components in a full size case and use a big dual tower air cooler or 360mm AIO with lots of fans, plenty of airflow, it wouldn't be "fixed" in my eyes. That 10-15% won't get me where I want to be performance-wise. The card simply can't do it.

I guess in the end I'm just angry this is the best AMD can or is willing to do, and that Nvidia has the gall to charge what they do for what is, at the end of the day, the only high end option currently available.

This must be what getting old feels like.

A solid week of fighting with this thing, and nothing to show for it. It'll probably be another 15 years before I give AMD a chance again, because the only way this could have gone worse in my eyes is if the thing literally caught on fire. Actually, that would have been ideal - I could have made an insurance claim and got hardware worth bothering with.