When using speed shift to set a static clock speed how does this effect e cores on 12th to 14th gen

[Questions]

When using speed shift to set a static clock speed how does this effect e cores on 12th to 14th gen is there a way to set the e cores to a different static speed than the p cores

 

[ir_cow]

P core and E cores has different Turbos. You can also set them to different static values in the BIOS.

 

[Questions]

What if I want to set them to a clock speed lower than a turbo clock. So in that case it doesn’t matter but I’m guessing on a locked laptop you wouldn’t be able to set them in the bios which is why you’d use throttle stop. I think a separate speed shift setting for e cores would be really cool. It’s basically all intel application optimization is

 

[ir_cow]

Sorry I have no experience with laptop overclocking.

 

[Questions]

Well it’s not really overclocking your just setting the clock speed minimum performance state maximum performance state in windows does the same thing I’m not talking about messing with fivr

 

[crlogic]

If you set the Power mode to Best performance in System > Power & Battery (Win 11 Laptops) or by clicking the battery icon in the dock and dragging the slider (Win 10 laptops) that will set the CPU to always all-core turbo. Will that give you be behaviour you're looking for?

 

[unclewebb]

When using speed shift to set a static clock speed how does this effect e cores on 12th to 14th gen is there a way to set the e cores to a different static speed than the p cores

I have never used a 12th Gen or newer CPU so I am not sure how to control the E core speeds. ThrottleStop working more or less correctly on newer hardware is mostly luck. There has been zero hands on testing.

I do not know if the Speed Shift Min and Max values can be set independently for the P and E cores or what else is possible.

 

[Questions]

Thank you for your reply just thought it would be a neat feature personally I’m on 11th gen but I’m assuming 15th gen will also have e cores. Hardware unboxed looked at the e cores when ap on was enabled and they were much higher clocked than usual. Seems like some neat customizations could be made if e core could be separately clocked. In any case throttlestop is awesome it’s like having a brand new computer

 

[unclewebb]

if e core could be separately clocked

The FIVR window should allow adjustment of the E core turbo ratios. No hardware so I have not tested this yet.

 

[Questions]

theres a registry value in windows that controls the e core values. all throttlestop has to do is allow the modification of that registry value from within the program. its essentially the minmum maximum performance state setting for e cores. every percent corresponds to a percent of the clock speed. if minimum/maximum performance state are the same then 12 17 25 32 37 42 50 62 67 75 82 87 92 99 100 each one of these performance state numbers corresponds to a particular multiplier based on the percent of the performance state. so 75 on minimum/maximum peformance state would have a different multiplier depending on the processor.

What settings can I change in process lasso to improve battery life?

What settings can I change in process lasso to improve battery life?

community.bitsum.com

 

[unclewebb]

I am not sure what the purpose of slowing the E cores down is. When an E core has nothing to do, it should automatically enter the core C6 state where it is disconnected from the internal clock. A core in C6 is technically running at 0 MHz. In other words, it is not running at all. Changing the min max performance state cannot improve upon a core that is already running at 0 MHz. That is as good as it gets. Slowing an E core down makes it less efficient so it will end up spending less time in C6 at 0 MHz.

all ThrottleStop has to do

No plans to add any additional features to ThrottleStop to control the E cores until I own some modern hardware that contains P & E cores. Buying food and paying the rent are more important to me then a bigger Cinebench score is.

 

[Questions]

this is only partially true. I have my throttlestop settings done to keep the process always awake and I get 1.1 watts when idle on a 1165g7 but sometimes when there is too much activity it jumps up to 3.0 watts occasionally. the idea isn't to lower the e clock frequency. the idea is to maximize it then set the performance clock to a lower clock speed. then running all background processes on the e cores. and running the game your running or whatever your currently doing in the foreground on the p cores.

if you limit the wattage of the processor you get less performance but by keeping it awake you get the full use of the processor so you get higher fps at lower wattages. as long as the processor isnt in turbo boost mode you do improve battery life by increasing the time the processor is asleep.(although the increase in wattage just from being in turbo boost is negligible.) the point is by keeping the processor asleep its doing less work and although you use less wattage its not at its full performance level. there are tasks that are memory intensive where you actually get an advantage by not running them at the cpus max clock speed. the only time you want to run the processor full tilt to idle more so you can save power is for task that are designed to improve performance when the cpu is at its max frequency. igpu tasks do not fit this build. not only does it starve the gpu because more power is potentially being used although that may not be the reason. it also decreases the activity of the fsb which decreases the performance of the igpu. still that being said removing unnecessary processes is still the best way to improve performance. you see even greater performance penalties for junk processes when the computer is always awake then when the computer is only used when it needs to be.

as far as not adding this to throttlestop thats your decision but this is a much easier thing to implement than speedshift was to implement. your not doing anything processor specific. youre just reading a registry value. it can be done without throttlestop. but Im not sure how the setting would mess with throttlestop. If you had speedshift set to a different setting. its possible the register setting would be applied indepently. honestly what I use throttlestop for with the exception of the great sleep settings could be handled by windows if they didn't make minimum/maximum performance state hidden so it requires a registry tweak. its also great at setting the tdp of the processor and modifying the turbo boost limit slider which is very conveinent. I get 3 hours playing red faction guerilla with a 12 watt limit with an 1165g7. I think I get about 40 fps on the original one and im running at the maximum settings for that game. I can't run the remaster though because I use more memory than 4gb and its still a 32 bit application which causes the remaster to crash. ive also been playing hogwarts legacy at about 20 fps in hogsmeade at 28 watts on an 1165g7 shadow quality low foliage quality low textures high and 22 fps in ratchet and clank rift apart with textures low fur quality high. lowering the multiplier dramatically increases performance in those games. its been a while since ive played with normal sleep settings but I notice dramatic fps improvements from even using a .1 of a watt less of power at idle. I suppose if I had more running in the background it could be potentially be a problem. but essentially all the programs on my computer are converting their output to work 100 percent of the time. this can occasionally lead to wattage spikes but its rare and this is only at idle. when playing hogwarts legacy or rift apart where the cpu is fully utilized this doesn't create a problem.

 

[unclewebb]

the idea isn't to lower the e clock frequency. the idea is to maximize it

Have you tried adjusting the E core frequency in the FIVR window? In theory you should be able to adjust the maximum E core clock speed here. You should also be able to lower the E core clock speed down to the E core base clock frequency. Without access to any new hardware, I added this feature to ThrottleStop without ever testing if it works or not. I have always just assumed it works.

removing unnecessary processes is still the best way to improve performance

I agree with that 100%. I have next to nothing installed on my computer so I can run 10 cores at 5000 MHz with no significant idle power consumption penalty. The cores spend 99% of their time in C7 doing nothing and consuming next to nothing.

Im not sure how the setting would mess with throttlestop

I decided a while ago not to add any new features to ThrottleStop until I have access to some new hardware for testing purposes. Programming without hardware is too painful. Maybe next year I will look at adding some more features to better control the P & E cores as well as Speed Shift.

 

[Deleted member 57642]

theres a registry value in windows that controls the e core values. all throttlestop has to do is allow the modification of that registry value from within the program. its essentially the minmum maximum performance state setting for e cores. every percent corresponds to a percent of the clock speed. if minimum/maximum performance state are the same then 12 17 25 32 37 42 50 62 67 75 82 87 92 99 100 each one of these performance state numbers corresponds to a particular multiplier based on the percent of the performance state. so 75 on minimum/maximum peformance state would have a different multiplier depending on the processor.

What settings can I change in process lasso to improve battery life?

What settings can I change in process lasso to improve battery life?

community.bitsum.com

All those registry settings - are Windows Power Plan features where the majority are set to hidden - but you can simply unhide them and will be added to Windows's Power Plan Advanced Settings. If you have this option - why do you expect them to be part of ThrottleStop's GUI as well?! Some already are, but there's 75 CPU Power Management settings (again, this are just for the CPU). He would have to rewrite the whole ThrottleStop UI to add all those settings (either make it 10x bigger to fit them all in - or add 10 more tabs). Not to mention - the time it takes to test each settings. As i'm aware ThrottleStop is a passion project. If you have demands involving extra features for hardware he doesn't even own - unless someone (like the ones making such demands) buys that for him to re-ignite his passion/motivation - it's unreasonable to have such expectations/demands (for free).

 

[Questions]

It was just a single registry setting. No one expected him to fit in all of them and the speed shift setting although better than minimum processor performance state is very similar. He doesn’t have to do it and I understand if he wants to do something,he wants to do it right. But compared to everything else in throttlestop it isn’t a big ask.

The only thing is it would be a bit confusing since the speed shift setting uses multipliers and the minimum maximum performance state efficiency setting uses percentages. With that added everything except fivr would work on 12th gen and up.

But again unclewebb wants to do it right if he wants to do it and I understand there are more important things to worry about. That being said including every register setting for power options would never happen slippery slope fallacy or not. The e core setting does add something to throttlestop that essentially keeps it up to date.

But look it’s a good program. But for example what does speed shift do on 12th gen does it control the p cores. Does it apply a setting on the p cores than scale that setting to the e cores. Windows power option registry settings answer that question minimum processor performance state controls the p cores Minimum processor state for Processor Power Efficiency controls the e cores.

I mean its a hacky way of doing it. It’s not nearly as good as speed shift but all it’s doing is writing a value to the registry. Compared to the rest of the work in throttlestop it isn’t labor intensive. That being said it also probably wouldn’t get the result you want since you couldn’t use multipliers like you can with speedshift. In any case it’s a great program good luck on your future endeavors.

 

[unclewebb]

what does speed shift do on 12th gen

Speed Shift Max in ThrottleStop can be used to control the maximum CPU speed of the P cores. The turbo ratios in the FIVR window should be able to control the P or E core turbo ratios.

I do not mind adding new features to ThrottleStop. It is winter here now so I need something to do for the next few months so I do not go stir crazy. Maybe I will get around to doing some more programming this winter.

The problem is I do not see how adding control of the Power Efficiency values for the E cores is going to provide any significant benefit for users. If you can already control the E core speed by using ThrottleStop, why would a person also need to adjust the Power Efficiency values? This new feature might let you run the E cores slower than the E core base frequency but I do not see any reason why anyone would ever need to do that.

everything except fivr would work on 12th gen and up.

Everything FIVR related already works correctly on 12th Gen and up. You cannot control the CPU voltages on 12th Gen and up mobile H series processors but that is because Intel removed that feature from their H series CPUs. That is not a limitation of ThrottleStop. That is a limitation by Intel. ThrottleStop FIVR control works great on the mobile HX processors. They still have the adjustable voltage feature.

 

[Questions]

folksy english I just meant if your not using fivr 12th-14th gen function the same as 11th gen with the hypothetical power options minimum processor performance state processor power efficiency enabled. Ive never used fivr. Ive never had a k processor. I don't entirely understand the turbo groups setting. never mind I understand now. that shows the turbo ratio limits for specific core sizes for performance cores and efficiency cores. still don't understand why that requires messing with fivr though but fair enough. except does that allow you to set a clock speed lower than turbo for the turbo ratio limits. it seems like it may not do exactly what speed shift does. Im on 11th gen so all I see is your photo which seems to just show the turbo limits when multiple cores are used. but okay if you can adjust the e core values with fivr I guess that's fine. the efficiency values stands for the e cores. efficient cores. I was under the impression windows allows you to adjust the efficiency core minimum and maximum clock speed using Minimum/Maximum processor state for Processor Power Efficiency Class 1. Its possible that your right and theres no specific setting for efficiency cores. even if there was it would only apply to versions of windows 10 and 11 that were out when efficiency cores came out. in fact if that registry tweak works on my version of windows than it isnt what I think it is. never mind im on the may 2023 version of windows 10 so efficiency cores were a thing back then. Anyway sorry for bothering you. It just seemed like a neat feature when someone mentioned it as a way of controlling the e cores.

 

[remixedcat]

Well it’s not really overclocking your just setting the clock speed minimum performance state maximum performance state in windows does the same thing I’m not talking about messing with fivr

So this is like setting cpu governer??

 

[Questions]

if you leave it alone intels processor power management will automatically set the cpu to a new clock speed based on load. minimum/maximum processor state allows you to set the minimum and maximum processor clock speed to different values. if there the same value then the cpu always runs at the same clock speed. I suppose its like setting the cpu governor although I really don't know what that means.

 

[unclewebb]

does that allow you to set a clock speed lower than turbo for the turbo ratio limits.

No. Adjusting the turbo ratios in the ThrottleStop FIVR window only lets you adjust the turbo ratios. You can only go as low as the base frequency. This will only work if the BIOS has not locked out this feature. Recent H series mobile CPUs might be locked. The K and HX processors should be unlocked.

No one has ever asked for the ability to run the E cores slower than the base clock speed.

cpu governor

I think AMD or Linux call this feature by that name.

 

[chrcoluk]

On the power schema stuff inclusive to windows. All of the following apply on Win 10.

On these CPU's e-cores never get parked by default, only p-cores. (but is adjustable on the hidden power schema setting)

Independent performance hint mechanism for p and e-cores.
E-cores (only applicable if using hardware p-states aka speedshift)

Subgroup / Setting GUIDs:
54533251-82be-4824-96c1-47b60b740d00 / 36687f9e-e3a5-4dbf-b1dc-15eb381c6863

Default value for schemes:
Balanced: AC=33
Power Saving PC: AC=60
High Performance PC: AC=0
Ultimate Performance PC: AC=0

P-cores (only applicable if using hardware p-states aka speedshift)

54533251-82be-4824-96c1-47b60b740d00 / 36687f9e-e3a5-4dbf-b1dc-15eb381c6864

Default value for schemes:
Balanced: AC=33
Power Saving PC: AC=60
High Performance PC: AC=0
Ultimate Performance PC: AC=0

Min and max performance based on %, its not a granular linear increase though, and turbo clocks is all put in one single %, (99% is max non turbo clocks, 100% is max turbo clocks).

E-cores for this is visible by default in power settings. (min/max processor state)

P-cores, min performance.

Subgroup / Setting GUIDs:
54533251-82be-4824-96c1-47b60b740d00 / 893dee8e-2bef-41e0-89c6-b55d0929964d

Default value for schemes:
Balanced: AC=5
Power Saving PC: AC=5
High Performance PC: AC=100
Ultimate Performance PC: AC=100

P-cores, max performance.

Subgroup / Setting GUIDs:
54533251-82be-4824-96c1-47b60b740d00 / bc5038f7-23e0-4960-96da-33abaf5935ed

Default value for schemes:
Balanced: AC=100
Power Saving PC: AC=75
High Performance PC: AC=100
Ultimate Performance PC: AC=100

A second min % performance setting for e-cores that applies when at least one p-core is unparked (so the default one only applies when they all parked). This means that by default windows 10, will be max turbo clocks for all e-cores if "any" p-core is unparked regardless of load on the system. However reducing max should override this as a maximum, so if e.g max is 99, then they will always be at max non turbo clocks if any p-core is unparked. This will allow them to downclock below max if reduced.

Subgroup / Setting GUIDs:
54533251-82be-4824-96c1-47b60b740d00 / fddc842b-8364-4edc-94cf-c17f60de1c80

Default value for schemes:
Balanced: AC=100
Power Saving PC: AC=100
High Performance PC: AC=100
Ultimate Performance PC: AC=100

Speculative clock boost setting (shared for both p-cores and e-cores), its not linear, 0,30,60,100 seem to be the only values that matter from my testing. Anything above zero makes clock's increase aggressively under the tiniest of loads. Only applies when using hardware p-states aka speedshift.

Subgroup / Setting GUIDs:
54533251-82be-4824-96c1-47b60b740d00 / 45bcc044-d885-43e2-8605-ee0ec6e96b59

Default value for schemes:
Balanced: AC=60
Power Saving PC: AC=0
High Performance PC: AC=100
Ultimate Performance PC: AC=100

To control min amount of unparked e-core's, 100 means not allowed to park any cores. Is percentage value.

Subgroup / Setting GUIDs:
54533251-82be-4824-96c1-47b60b740d00 / 0cc5b647-c1df-4637-891a-dec35c318583

Default value for schemes:
Balanced: AC=100
Power Saving PC: AC=100
High Performance PC: AC=100
Ultimate Performance PC: AC=100

All of these settings change on the fly, no reboot needed.

On a different forum someone told me Windows 11 apparently treats e-cores and p-cores as the same performance class in all the power schema stuff (which to me seems odd, but since I hate 11 I never bothered to verify if its true personally).

I can see on the net throttlestop is very popular, and I have been using it as recent as today and yesterday on an alder lake N100 on a NUC I have (no options at all in bios for anything).
Since the N100 only has one type of core that seems to behave as expected using throttlestop.

 

[Deleted member 57642]

It was just a single registry setting. No one expected him to fit in all of them and the speed shift setting although better than minimum processor performance state is very similar. He doesn’t have to do it and I understand if he wants to do something,he wants to do it right. But compared to everything else in throttlestop it isn’t a big ask.

Check the ThrottleStop forum history - and you'll find requests on every corner. Thus, since you put it like that - what makes you so special - so everyone else should be ignored while only your request is taken into account (only reality - where there's a request for only 1 setting to be added)? If you do check it - you'll also notice that up till last year Unclewebb was discouraged by Intel's changes to upcoming CPUs (+ all the Plundervolt BIOS patches - meant to disable Undevolting - while Intel making look like that would also be the norm for the next Generations) - and at that time decided to drop support for 12th Gen and higher (if that was the case - you wouldn't be able to Undervolt your CPU). Yet, he changed his mind:

Intel 13th Gen Support?

I see ThrottleStop hasn't been updated since June '22. I found this tool a few years ago when I had a 8th gen Intel CPU and I've really loved using it to set my Clock ratios and Speedstep settings, etc.. I just recently upgraded to an i7-13700K and notice it doesn't seem to support 13th gen...

www.techpowerup.com

...without even owning a CPU from this generation. And thus TrottleStop 9.6 was released. Now, if TrottleStop has a team behind it - not to mention CPUs from the 12th - 14th Generations.... as it's the case with Intel's own XTU - which does have a "team" of highly paid devs with every Intel CPUs at their disposal (even unreleased CPUs) - then such request wouldn't sound so unreasonable (especially since you're an Intel Client - so it's right as a payin costumer). Last but not least and as mentioned before - what you want it's already available for tweaking from Windows Power Plan. You can even make 10 Custom Power Plan profiles - each with their own set of personalised settings. So you're not missing out in any way - if this setting is not part of TT or till (if ever) will be added. On the other hand, there's stuff only TT can do in a safer envoirment (/ failure in Windows ends with BSOD - while a failue in BIOS can lead to a head ache) .Or at least better than others - even Intel's ow XTU app - and i already paid for that while buying an Intel CPU.

I do not mind adding new features to ThrottleStop. It is winter here now so I need something to do for the next few months so I do not go stir crazy. Maybe I will get around to doing some more programming this winter.

Even tho - i can admit that i find some of Microsoft's descriptions of X featue rather ambigious - every Windows Power Plan setting has a descriptive detail (what's suppose to do and such). So hey, if it helps (if you can make better sense of each feature - and what's atcually intended for) - a user from Guru3D made a frontend UI for each and everyone of those settings - called "PowerSettingsExplorer (portable 97 Kb in size)". You can set/edit them withing the app or you can "uncheck" which basicly Unhides and adds them to Windows Power Plan. This are all ther CPU Power Management settings - which can be set by Windows Power Plan:



As can be seen on the right side - there's a description of the feature - but also what can be changed and what that does. That's 75 settings in total... I miss the times when you only had to change the Volatage and the multipler for CPU & RAM and after running some stress tools to check the stability of changed settings (mainly OC) - you'd be set with a solid performer. Higher energy ussage for sure but... 75 Power Management settings!!

 

[Questions]

this is all really good advice but there is one problem with using turbo clock rates to control the e cores instead of a setting like speed shift. the setting doesn't induce the e cores to use turbo boost. with speedshift minimum/maximum I can induce my processor to always use turbo boost with my 1165g7. I don't usually do that but I did it when compiling a special version of unreal engine 4 for modding hogwarts legacy. anyway I think throttlestop is an amazing program. just thought id bring this up because I think a setting like this could be very useful. I know you don't generally use laptops but the tpl setting is extremely useful for laptops. you can set the wattage limit for pl1 and pl2. set the turbo boost power limit for pl1 I think. set the speedshift min/maximum values giving you finer control of the processors multiplier than windows does. it also allows you to set the tdp level to up 2. but im not sure if that's ever gotten around throttling. plus it allows you to set the c settings which people have compiled linux distributions just to mess with.